"The Catching Away"

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Major, Sep 20, 2011.

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  1. In my opinion, all of the end time prophetic events described in the Bible take place after the Catching Away or as some call it the Rapture.

    Personally I think that the even is what is in view in Rev. 4:1..........
    "After this I looked and behold, a door was opened in heaven and the first voice I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, come up hither and I will show thee THINGS WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER".

    This is the dividing line. From this point on in the Revelation the things are future and as of today, have not taken place.

    Why then is there so much confusion about the Catching Away as an event and to its Scriptural referances and to its significance to the End Times.

    I believe the answer is found in TRIDITIONS. The CATCHING AWAY is a relitivly new teaching, commonly understood to come from the early 1800's by a man named John Darby. It has since then been poured over by doctors of theology and Biblical science and has beeen accepted as a NEW teaching with has merit and value.

    BUT because it is NEW, some have rejected it putright and that has caused much confusion. Understanding God's Word stripped of tradition is what is needed to meet the challenge of un-confusing the soon coming event of the Rapture/Catching Away, then 7 years of Tribulation ending at Armageddon.

    Any thoughts on this comment????
  2. Good afternoon Major,
    I finally got enough Tramadol in me to get out of bed, ain´t life fine. ;-)

    You and I are so on the same page. Folks seem so intent on forgetting that the entire Revelation of God (all of the Bible for those that missed it) was written for a mystery that we are commanded to study to show ourselves approved. I refuse to be dogmatic about it but I, also, am Pre-Trib Rapture. If I have missed that point, I´ll still be looking but I refuse to cease getting up and looking for my LORD today.
  3. I will not say ALL Bill, but a great number of people are post millinial because the teaching of the Rapture is "New". IF that is the reason we must wonder then what they do with the teaching of the Church or better yet "Salvation by Grace" from Luther in 1711. A man named John Darby is the one most credit with the NEW teaching on the Rapture and that is only 100 years after Luther's 95 Theses in 1711.

    I for one contend that the Rapture is not NEW. It was sitting right there in the Scripture for 2000 years! Then by revelation it became understandable to men. I believe that is what Daniel meant in Daniel 12:4.............."But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

    The knowledge we learn can be that of Biblical prophecy as the day of Christ return draws closer.

    Can you imagine what Spurgeon or Gill or Matthews or any of the great Bible teachers would have said if they had been able to live until May 14, 1948 when Israel was placed into the promised land as a nation. !!!!

    For me personally, the premillinial view is the one that places all the prophectic pieces of the Bible together.
  4. Actually, it did not begin with John Darby - he merely picked it up and ran with it. The doctrine started with a "prophetic vision" experienced by a young Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald in 1830:

    (Read the whole article at http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm)

    There is no comparison between the Rapture Doctrine and Luther's revelation of salvation by grace. Salvation by grace is spelled out very clearly throughout the New Testament, and was an accepted doctrine in the early church. Luther merely restored to the Church what had been lost.

    A pre-trib rapture, on the other hand, is not spelled out anywhere in Scripture, being based on a misunderstanding of 1 Thess 4:17 (which does not in any way suggest that the catching up will be before the tribulation) and 1 Thess 5:9 (which is talking about the wrath of eternal judgement, not the wrath of the tribulation.) It was never a doctrine of the early church, which believed in a single return of the Lord Jesus Christ in accordance with Rev. 19:11-16. It also contradicts Rev. 20:4-5 which refers to the resurrection of those who have lost their lives for Christ during the tribulation as "the first resurrection" - something which would be simply untrue if the church had already been raptured before the trib.

    Incidentally, just because I don't accept a pre-trib rapture, does not make me post-millenniel - I absolutely believe that Christ is returning to establish His millenniel Kingdom on earth, and I am very much looking forward to it - a thousand years might just about give me enough time to accomplish all that is in my heart :D:D


  5. I am aware of Ms. Macdonald, but in my understanding she did not have a vision of total Rapture, only a selected Rapture. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes as she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy.

    It was originally taught by the apostle Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to the church in Thessalonica. The Thessalonians were the first ones to receive the Holy Spirit inspired teaching of "The Blessed Hope". The Blessed Hope as the teaching was originally called, was taught by the apostle Paul starting in the First century AD. (I Thessalonians 4-5)
    Other apostles such as John, Matthew, Luke also made reference to "The Blessed Hope". Also see: (I Cor. 15:52)
    The other references to "The Blessed Hope" are referred to in: (cf: Matt. 24:42, Matt. 25:13, Luke 12:36-48, Acts 1:11, Phil. 3:20-21, Titus. 2:11-13)
    The Teaching of "The Blessed Hope" was deeply entrenched and taught in the early Church, for the first two centuries, starting with the apostle Paul, and referenced to also by Matthew, John, and Luke.

    What happened then to the teaching of the "BLESSED HOPE".????????
    Well in the last ten years of the second century and all through out the third century, We had the rise of a heretical church and the heretical school of theology at Alexandria, Egypt. They advanced the erroneous principle that the Bible should be interpreted in a nonliteral or allegorical sense. The result of their heresy was that the original teaching of "The Blessed Hope" was done away with because they couldn't understand or visualize it. They just didn't want to believe it.

    Now As to grace and salvation I would tend to agree but we could say the same thing about the Rapture in that it was written of and spoken to by Jesus, Paul and others others almost 2000 years ago and was left behind and NOW has been resurrected just as has the doctrine of salvation by only grace.

    IT was right there in the Scriptures for any and all to read and grasp, BUT IMO the time of the end that we are now in, did not lead to the revelation of the Rapture.
    2 Thess. 2:1-8...............
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    Step # 1...( Latin Word "Rapio or rapturo" which means a "snatching away or to be Caught up and taken away quickly").

    2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    (Step #2...Apostsy, "falling away")
    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    *********(TEACHING ON THE RAPTURE!!!!)*******

    6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    (Step #3....Rapture removes the Holy Spirit who holds back evil)
    7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    (Step #4.....The Anti-christ is revealed after the church/Holy Spirit is removed).

    The New Testament clearly teaches (IMHO) that Jesus Christ will "come again"(John 14:3) and "appear the second time" (Hebrews 9:28) for His own.

    He promised this to His disciples in the upper room.
    "I go to prepare a place for you," the Lord said, "and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."(John 14:23) This is our Lord's first indication that He will return specifically given to comfort the disciples the time of His absence.

    Many believe this is the first clear reference in our Lord's teaching of the rapture of the believers. In Hebrews 9:28, he has believers in view when he states: "So Christ was once offered to the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

    Again, the promise of our Lord's return for His own is sounded loud and clear.
    "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (I Thessalonians 1:10)
  6. Before anything else, we need to establish what is in dispute here, and what is not.

    NOT IN DISPUTE: At the end of the age Jesus Christ will return in power and glory to establish His millennial kingdom on earth. Some time before He actually sets foot on earth, His saints who are living at the time will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

    IN DISPUTE: The positioning of the "catching up" on the prophetic time line - before, during or after the "tribulation."

    Much as I hate to acknowledge that it was a female who started this false teaching (silly girl should have known better!), nonetheless she was the first person who taught that the catching up of the saints would be a separate event from the return of Christ to establish His Kingdom. The fact that a man picked up the teaching and expanded it does not give either the teaching or the man greater credibility.

    The only time the phrase "blessed hope" appears in the KJV is in Titus:
    Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    It refers only to the return of Christ (not in dispute), not to the timing of that return, nor even to the "catching up" in a general sense.

    Let's look at the other passages you quote:

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. v:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: v:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Again, this passage only mentions the return of the Lord and the fact that the saints will be caught up to meet Him (both not in dispute) it does not say anything about when the catching up will happen in relation to the tribulation, only that "the dead in Christ shall rise first."

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Again, we have the resurrection of the dead saints and catching up of the living (not in dispute) - but absolutely nothing about the timing!

    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    We agree - the Lord is coming back. But these say nothing about the timing.

    Luke 12:36-48 also talks about the Lord's return (not in dispute) but not about the timing.

    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Yet again - Jesus is coming back (which we agree on). It tells us how, but nothing about the timing.

    Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: v:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Same story - Jesus is coming back (we agree); when He does those who are living will be transformed (we agree) - but nothing about the timing.

    Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Here again, Jesus is returning (agreed) but no word about timing.

    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    Not quite sure how this one fits your argument. A typo maybe?

    Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Jesus is coming back for His saints (undisputed) - but again nothing about timing.

    1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    Someone who sees the tribulation as "the wrath to come" might interpret this as referring to a pre-trib rapture. However, "delivered" is past tense, indicating that the deliverance has already been achieved, and therefore referring to the wrath of judgement and hell rather than the temporary wrath of the trib.

    Not one of these verses that you have used to prove a pre-tribulation rapture does anything other than talk about the return of Christ (on which we agree) and the fact that when He returns the saints will be caught up to meet Him (on which we agree.) Not one of them places that catching up before the tribulation, nor suggests that it will be a separate event from the actual return of the Lord. In fact the "blessed hope" held dear by the early church was not a pre-trib rapture, but the return of the Lord (still our "blessed hope" today.)

    Now lets look at the passage in 2 Thess. The key is this verse:
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    Who is the "Man of Sin"? Most commentators would agree this refers to the Antichrist. But wait ... the Antichrist's rule is during the tribulation. So this clearly places the return of Christ and the catching up after the trib.

    Then there's 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52, both of which say that the dead in Christ will rise before the living are caught up. That would make that event the first resurrection. Yet Rev. 20:4-6 says that those who have given their lives for Christ during the tribulation will take part in the first resurrection - meaning that the first resurrection has to take place after the tribulation, and since the catching up follows the first resurrection it must also take place after the trib.

    Scripture makes it clear that there will be believers here on earth during the tribulation:
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    To get around this, those who hold to a pre-trib rapture have to teach that some will come to the Lord during the trib. However, two things stand against this:
    1) If, as pre-tribers do, we take the "one who letteth" and who must be taken away (2 Thess 2:7) to be the Holy Spirit, how is anyone going to be saved, since it is only through the work of the Holy Spirit that we are brought to Christ?
    2) Jesus said that His return would be "as the days of Noah" and "as the days of Lot" (Luke 17:26-28). What happened in the days of Noah? Noah's family were taken into the ark and judgement came. No second chances. No-one able to say, "Oh, now I see what is happening and I know God is real after all. Please pull me up into the ark too." Same in the days of Lot. That tells me that when Jesus Christ returns to this earth, that will be the end of chances for mankind. Those who are saved will be caught up with Him, everyone else will face judgement. No tribulation saints. Therefore, since the Bible clearly says there will be saints during the tribulation, the catching up must happen after it.


  7. Now that took a lot of time and work.

    I still have to disagree with you on the timing of the Rapture/Catching Away.

    I just can not respond to ALL your comments but I will say that there will be a lot of people saved during the Tribulation and they will go into the 1000 year rule of Christ as humans/saved. They will marry and have children and we see those children rebel in chapter 20 of the Rev. as the 2nd battle of Gog and Magog.

    As for 1 Thess. and the man of sin the A/C.........he cannot be revealed until the church is removed and then he is revealed and Daniel tells us his rule will be for 7 years which is the entire Tribulation period NOT AFTERWARDS.
    The A/C ruleing after the Tribulation makes no sense at all. Jesus comes physically at Armageddon, the end of the Tribulation !!!!

    1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
    "DELIVERED" us from the wrath to come was made possible by His sacrifice on the croos that all who placed their faith in Christ would be saved/delivered from the wrath to come.

    The WRATH of God is the referance of God's anger and judgment on those who rejected Christ and are lost.
    (John 3:36 and Romans 1:18).

    Paul had a definate and specific time in mind OTHERWISE he would have told his reader to 'PREPARE FOR THE TRIBULATION OF GOD'S WRATH".

    He did not do that, he explained that the believers would be kept from it. The same verb (RESCUES) and preposition (FROM) are used in 2 Corth. 1:10 where Paul said he was delivered FROM A DEADLY PERIL. Obviousely this does not mean Paul died and was resurrected. God's people (Believers) will be kept away from God's wrath.
  8. Rev Lynn,
    As you already know Major and I are on the same page. I am not dogmatic in my teach and even last night, as I filled the podium and preached on Revelation, I was not dogmatic but I do tend to emphasize the Pre~ position. In your post I see one issue that I must disagree with. When Jesus cones, just as He left, in or on the cloud, I see no reason in scripture to say He will set foot on the earth and all I can see is our assention to Him which places Him at some level above the Earth.
  9. If I may assist, it is found in Zechariah:-

    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
  10. Hi Lynn,

    I am curious. Your attention to the scriptures is admirable and your observations that Christ returns only once and that when He does ALL who are in Christ (dead and alive) will be raised up to meet Him in the air is according to scripture. But how is it then that you are expecting Christ to return and THEN reign for 1,000 years? After all does not Revelation 20 tell us that ONLY those beheaded (literally decapitated) for Christ are raised to life to reign WITH Him for 1,000 (the 1,000 years clearly referring to how long THEY reign with Him, not how long HE reigns) BUT that the REST (remainder) of the dead are not raised until sometime AFTER the 1,000 years. We are told the raising of those who were beheaded is the first ressurection therefore there is none before it, and that nobody else is raised until sometime AFTER the 1,000 years.

    As you pointed out we know from elsewhere in the Bible that when Christ does return ALL who are dead in Christ by whatever means, and all those still alive in Christ are raised AND changed. We know from Rev 20 that this does not occur until sometime AFTER the 1,000 years has ended.

    Likewise we know from both Revelation and Zechariah that Jesus returns when the nations are gathered together against Israel and Jerusalem. And we know from Rev 20 that Satan is not loosed to gather the nations against Israel until AFTER the 1,000 has ended.

    I am just curious why you believe the scriptures when they clearly tell us that Jesus does not return before the Great Tribulation but do not believe the SAME scriptures when they equally clearly tell us Jesus does not return before the 1,000 years either.
  11. mistman,
    You will do well to know that you have jumped in between two preacher/teachers of the Gospel. I´m not about to scold you nut you will need to do a good bit of research before correcting or assisting either one of us. This will remain a discussion between two Christ-like people so there is no need to worry. Lynn and I both pick our words carefully as we teach each other.

    Now, youǘe jumped in here and youĺl need a couple of tools to keep up with this conversation if it takes off, such as a Thompson Chain Reference Bible and a Naveś Topical at the least. I´m not about to tell you youŕe out of lie but your reference must be read with the light of Matt. 26:64 shinning on it as well as a good number of other scripture. There in you´ll find the reason why I´m not dogmatic in my teaching of the Rapture but I am dogmatic about the aspect of it, Jesus´ feet do not touch the earth until the Millennial Reign.
  12. Remember Jesus ascended from the ground UP into the sky. Matt. tells us HOW and WHERE Jesus will return FROM. Zechariah tells us where He will "land" as it were.

    Sorry but I was not aware we are supposed to believe the word of Matthew but disbelieve the word of Zechariah. They are both in the Bible so in my simple faith in the truth of the WHOLE word of God as an "unlearned and ignorant" man, such as were Peter and John I choose to believe BOTH of them and understand in a way that means BOTH speak the truth.

    But your belief such matters can only be properly discussed by those with academic training in such matters even though the Apostles themselves, many of the Early church leaders, and even Jesus Himself had no such training and relied WHOLLY on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach them, is noted. Your reprimand for daring to correct you is also noted and I will withdraw from the conversation between you and Lyn, unless, of course, Lyn would like me to contribute further, but that is entirely up to her.
  13. Dear Bill...........please give some consideration to the Zech. 14 Scriptures.

    "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
  14. Hi Misty,

    I will get back to you on this. I need to take a little time on it, but I hurt my back this morning (aggravated an old problem) so I've been flat horizontal and in considerable pain all day. I just peeked in quickly tonight, but am still in too much pain to sit for too long. Hopefully I will be better tomorrow and will be able to respond fully. Prayers would be appreciated!


  15. Jesus Will Return Again to Earth
    The Bible says Jesus will physically return again to earth (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19).

    Jesus returns is to defeat His enemies, set up His throne, restore Israel, rule with "a rod of iron" and share His authority with those who overcame in Him (Mat. 19:28; 25:31; Acts 1:3-6; Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21).

    Zechariah 14:4..................
    In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

    The above quotes from the book of Zechariah tell us that this battle will be held at the time when "the Lord will ...fight against those nations" meaning the nations that gathered in Israel. The statement "the mount of Olives will be split" is due to the earthquake referred to in Revelation 16:18-19 .

    Revelation 16:18-19..............
    And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a GREAT EARTHQUAKE, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
    The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

    It is my understaning that Zech. 14 and Rev. 16 describe the same event and IMO it seems to be at Armageddon.
  16. From one who has been nearly crippled for extended periods from the indescribable pain of back problems you have both my understanding and sympathy. Will certainly be praying for an easing of pain and a speedy recovery for you and some help with those things that always seem to need to be done even when we are not well enough to do them.

    Take care and don't overdo things.

    Warmest regards Misty.
  17. Add me to that list as well. I was just in the hospital in Gainsville Fl. a month ago with back issues from a war injury. I understand exactly what you are saying and my thoughts and prayers are with and for you.
  18. I´m just going to be dealing with the text of the Revelation in this series of 22 messages but in response to your post I am particularly fond of the passage Iǘe come to know as The Ezekial Option after the Book by Joel Rosenberg, Christian Jew. It is found in Ezekiel 38 & 39 and as I read these passages from Ezekiel and Zechariah I am so impressed with the need for folks to turn now.
  19. Lynn,
    If you can ask your doctor for some Tramadol. 2 of these, 3 times a day removes pain, just about, as good as Morphine without the intoxication effect. It´s a non-narcotic pain med made with the poisons of critters, I´m told. It is what I take every day for the never ending pain. Without it I could never preach nor teach again.
  20. It just ain´t right, is it? I didn´t have the time to go to the hospital in the middle of the fight and it should be that if we were mean enough to go ahead and fight then for what was right, that we should not hurt so cotton-pickin´ bad now!! :)
    Praying for all three of you.
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