Sovereign Election

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Stan said:
and yet John 20:31 says; these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 8:43 is NOT literal Jack, it is metaphorical in context. Obviously those men could HEAR, they just didn't comprehend Jesus' message, just as all those who heard His parables did not comprehend, as shown in v 27.
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I think we agree on that Stan for different reasons. It isn't metaphorical at all. But the Greek word AKOUW, means to hear and comprehend. There is another Greek word that means simply to hear something that is not a message, but that is not this word. So, they heard the Lord's words, but could not understand them.

He was speaking to Jews who had believed in Him already said:
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. "[/I]
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You believe this group was a group of Christian believers? WOW! Did you read the passage? Jesus said to them that were enslaved to sin (v34-35). They sought to kill the Lord Jesus (v37, 40). Jesus said of them that they were doing the deeds of their father Satan, the father of all lies. How in the world do you think these are believers in Christ? It says in verse 30 that they came to "believe" in him, but I don't think for a moment it was belief in his redemption. They were Jews who believed that He was the Jewish messiah who would come with an army to throw off the schakles of Roman oppression. But they certainly were not Christian believers. I can't believe you believe that. Do you honesty think Christians would seek to kill Jesus and would accuse Him of being demon possessed?

[quote="Remember Jack you can't cherry pick verses, you have to use the ENTIRE Bible to understand Jesus and God.
Here are a few more scriptures for you to THINK about.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Col 1:6
that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.
[/quote]

Excellent verses. Okay this is my first attempt at using BB codes, what am I doing wrong?
 
Stan said:
Again you are paraphrasing where NONE is required. It doesn't say GRANTED in v44, it says DRAW. This STILL does NOT deal with Sovereign Election, just a word game YOU want to play. Not accepting v44 and stressing v65 is simply eisegesis and nothing more.
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The phrase in verse 44 and the phrase in verse 65 are identical in the original Greek, "No one has the ability to come unto me." Verse 44 has, "...unless the Father draws him." Verse 65 has "...unless it were given him of the Father."
 
Jack Williamson said:
The phrase in verse 44 and the phrase in verse 65 are identical in the original Greek, "No one has the ability to come unto me." Verse 44 has, "...unless the Father draws him." Verse 65 has "...unless it were given him of the Father."
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Jack--

I've tried to explain that to Stan in three different posts. It says the same thing in both verse 44 and 65. And when Jesus repeats something--"that's why I told you..."(v.65) he is definitely attempting to drive home a point. It states in John 6 that Jesus knew"from the beginning" who did not believe in him, and who would betray him.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?(John 6:70) Jesus literally CHOSE someone who he KNEW was going to betray him. The doctrine of sovereign election is clearly taught in the Bible---and clearly by Jesus himself.
 
Jack Williamson said:
I think we agree on that Stan for different reasons. It isn't metaphorical at all. But the Greek word AKOUW, means to hear and comprehend. There is another Greek word that means simply to hear something that is not a message, but that is not this word. So, they heard the Lord's words, but could not understand them.
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Is this what I just said Jack?


Jack Williamson said:
You believe this group was a group of Christian believers? WOW! Did you read the passage? Jesus said to them that were enslaved to sin (v34-35). They sought to kill the Lord Jesus (v37, 40). Jesus said of them that they were doing the deeds of their father Satan, the father of all lies. How in the world do you think these are believers in Christ? It says in verse 30 that they came to "believe" in him, but I don't think for a moment it was belief in his redemption. They were Jews who believed that He was the Jewish messiah who would come with an army to throw off the schakles of Roman oppression. But they certainly were not Christian believers. I can't believe you believe that. Do you honesty think Christians would seek to kill Jesus and would accuse Him of being demon possessed?
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What does the first part of verse 31 say Jack? Do you not understand my responses? Did you not read v30-31? "Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said." What YOU believe it says is NOT the point. What it SAYS is the point. You don't have an option, you either accept it or don't. Many Christians call me demon possessed because I believe in speaking in tongues Jack. So yes I believe they believed in Jesus as the scripture states and I believe that they would not commit to Him because of their doctrinal beliefs and what Jesus confronted them with. Same thing still happens today. IF God's Word says they believed, then they believed, just Like Rom 10:9-10 says, even though you don't accept that, so your take here is NOT surprising. Can an unbeliever commit the unpardonable sin? Obviously not.


Jack Williamson said:
Excellent verses. Okay this is my first attempt at using BB codes, what am I doing wrong?
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What you did NOT do properly here was put the opening quote codes in place. All you did was put [quote= without the reference and without the closing bracket. Otherwise you did well.
 
Jack Williamson said:
The phrase in verse 44 and the phrase in verse 65 are identical in the original Greek, "No one has the ability to come unto me." Verse 44 has, "...unless the Father draws him." Verse 65 has "...unless it were given him of the Father."
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Yes Jack I understand. Let's move on. This means nothing to the bottom line, as we all agree that God draws us. Seems you and Fish think this is important to the Sovereign Election issue and it is NOT.
 
STAN: To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said." What YOU believe it says is NOT the point. What it SAYS is the point. You don't have an option, you either accept it or don't. Many Christians call me demon possessed because I believe in speaking in tongues Jack. So yes I believe they believed in Jesus as the scripture states and I believe that they would not commit to Him because of their doctrinal beliefs and what Jesus confronted them with. Same thing still happens today. IF God's Word says they believed, then they believed, just Like Rom 10:9-10 says, even though you don't accept that, so your take here is NOT surprising. Can an unbeliever commit the unpardonable sin? Obviously not.

JACK: Well, Stan, you can believe whatever you wish. Personally, I have a real problem accepting the idea that a group of people who think Christ is demon possessed, wish to kill Him, and whom Jesus called children of the devil are actually saved. Call me old fashioned.
 
Jack Williamson said:
Well, Stan, you can believe whatever you wish. Personally, I have a real problem accepting the idea that a group of people who think Christ is demon possessed, wish to kill Him, and whom Jesus called children of the devil are actually saved. Call me old fashioned.
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You should have been easily able to properly respond to this post with the BB coding Jack.

In any event do you NOT accept what John says about them believing IN Christ Jack? I can't really call you old fashioned because an old fashioned person believes in ALL scripture.
Do you NOT get the implication of the unpardonable sin in this event? How would you explain an unbeliever committing it?
 
Stan said:
You should have been easily able to properly respond to this post with the BB coding Jack.

In any event do you NOT accept what John says about them believing IN Christ Jack? I can't really call you old fashioned because an old fashioned person believes in ALL scripture.
Do you NOT get the implication of the unpardonable sin in this event? How would you explain an unbeliever committing it?
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Well, once again you are interpreting things according to your theology, rather than forming your theology according to correct interpretation. You have absolutely ignored the whole context of John 6 Stan. You interpret John 6 by the Theology you have already formed in your mind. I will no longer post on this thread, and mean it sincerely. I leave you with this:

"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and he shall direct your paths". (Prov. 3:5,6).

When we are willing to "humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God" then we are willing to accept scripture for what it is saying. Until we are willing to do that we will interpret scripture by what we believe to be the truth (our own understanding). Jack has mentioned that for years he fought the doctrines of OSAS and Election, but finally came to a place of letting the Bible speak for itself, and not allowing his own understanding to dictate his theology. I praise God that I too have come to believe that salvation is ALL OF GRACE--from start to finish. And oh, what peace and joy come from that understanding. God bless you!
 
Fish153 said:
Well, once again you are interpreting things according to your theology, rather than forming your theology according to correct interpretation. You have absolutely ignored the whole context of John 6 Stan. You interpret John 6 by the Theology you have already formed in your mind. I will no longer post on this thread, and mean it sincerely. I leave you with this:

"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and he shall direct your paths". (Prov. 3:5,6).

When we are willing to "humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God" then we are willing to accept scripture for what it is saying. Until we are willing to do that we will interpret scripture by what we believe to be the truth (our own understanding). Jack has mentioned that for years he fought the doctrines of OSAS and Election, but finally came to a place of letting the Bible speak for itself, and not allowing his own understanding to dictate his theology. I praise God that I too have come to believe that salvation is ALL OF GRACE--from start to finish. And oh, what peace and joy come from that understanding. God bless you!
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If you actually KNEW the context and exegeted it properly I would have no problem looking at your comments Fish, but you don't do that. What you do is exactly what you accuse me and my ilk of doing. Your lack of understanding WHAT God's Grace is does not negate it, but only your understanding.

God's Word says, "everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
You can deny this all you want, but God is NOT electing people to be saved.
 
Rusty said:
Do you believe in a soul's per-existance before birth on earth? This is crucial to your question.
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Thanks for that question, it corrected some notion I have.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17
I take the word “creation” as it is.

Christians are new creations.
 
Stan said:
You should have been easily able to properly respond to this post with the BB coding Jack.

In any event do you NOT accept what John says about them believing IN Christ Jack? I can't really call you old fashioned because an old fashioned person believes in ALL scripture.
Do you NOT get the implication of the unpardonable sin in this event? How would you explain an unbeliever committing it?
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I have a lifetime of believing exactly what the Scripture say, Stan. I do accept what John wrote. Just because I disagree with your understanding doesn't mean I disagree with God. You're not God, Stan, contrary to you might think.
 
Jack Williamson said:
I have a lifetime of believing exactly what the Scripture say, Stan. I do accept what John wrote. Just because I disagree with your understanding doesn't mean I disagree with God. You're not God, Stan, contrary to you might think.
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That's about as unequivocal as mud Jack.
 
aha said:
Thanks for that question, it corrected some notion I have.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17
I take the word “creation” as it is.

Christians are new creations.
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Well, IF the Bible actually said this then I guess you could have that position. IN FACT, what it is properly translated as, is; Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
This would be the NEW Covenant, which we enter into THROUGH Jesus. As He said in John 10:9.
 
Jack Williamson said:
I have a lifetime of believing exactly what the Scripture say, Stan. I do accept what John wrote. Just because I disagree with your understanding doesn't mean I disagree with God. You're not God, Stan, contrary to you might think.
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Well James 2:19 addresses people who say they believe Jack and ALL your equivocal statements don't really show WHAT you believe.
Do you accept and believe Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13, that EVERYONE (no exceptions, no conditions) who calls upon Jesus is saved?
Do you accept and believe our FAITH is what saves us as Jesus indicated in Luke 7:50?
Do you accept and believe what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:9?
Do you accept and believe what Jesus says John 3:16 & 18?

None of these verses are qualified nor need to be. They clearly say what they say.
 
Stan said:
Well, IF the Bible actually said this then I guess you could have that position. IN FACT, what it is properly translated as, is; Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
This would be the NEW Covenant, which we enter into THROUGH Jesus. As He said in John 10:9.
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From the stand point of the original language of 2 Cor. 5:17, your rendering is grammatically highly doubtful. The word is actually, KTISIS, a masculine adjective "creature." The only antecedent of a masculine gender anywhere nearby is "any man in Christ." There is no verb "has come" in the sentence which would be necessary for your translation. As a matter of fact, there is no verb in the first phrase at all which often indicates "to be." Interestingly, this phrase echoes a common slogan used by Jewish rabbis when someone was undergoing the initiation rite of the Jewish faith. "He who brings a foreigner and makes him a proselyte is as if he created him." Paul would have been very familiar with phrase from his former life.
 
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