Sovereign Election

[Jack Williamson]

Let's see if we can deal with this subject more effectively and with far less acrimony shall we?

The bottom line is, scripture is our arbitrator, so let's use it and try to be HONEST about what it says.

To start what do the following verses say to you? What do they convey in terms of actual salvation?

Rom 10:9-13
John 10:9
Acts 2:21
Acts 16:31

Of course, Romans 10:9-13 is one of the hallmarks of soteriology. This particular passage from Paul is found in a passage where Paul expresses his desire for the salvation of his Jewish brethren (10:1) and he specifically speaks to specific elements of Jewish society. He wishes his former colleagues would receive Christ as the Messiah. The passage also interjects the Lordship of Christ into salvation, which was a major sticking point for the Pharisees. They refused to believe that anyone was their Lord except the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. While living under Gentile Roman political domination, they righteously said, "We were never in bondage to any man." The Sadducees refused to believe in the resurrection, and here it is a necessary ingredient for salvation. Quoting Joel, he also stressed the importance of calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved.
John 10 is the passage telling us of the Great Shepherd of the Sheep. He alone is the means of salvation and all who call upon Him and believe in his name will obtain eternal life. In verse 28 He tells us that that as the Great Shepherd, He gives them eternal life and no one shall snatch them out of his his hand. Interestingly, in that verse, he used a double negative "ouk, mh." The first word meaning reality while the second negative talks of possibility. Hence, once He has given us eternal life, we are not now perishing and there is no possibility we shall ever perish.
Peter's Pentecostal sermon in Acts two also quotes Joel 2:32 as does Paul in Romans 10:13. He testifies as to the Messiah who has been attested by signs and miracles. It was the Jews who looked for a sign and they received those signs that Jesus was the Messiah.
Acts 16:31 the words of Paul to the Philippian jailer emphasize the need for faith in salvation. It is impossible to please God without faith (Hb. 11:6).

 

[Jack Williamson]

Read my posts more carefully please Jack...I never said all mankind is saved...I am saying all mankind has the option of choosing salvation, if they will.....The concept that God created the vast majority of sinners to damnation (the usual Calvinist view, I find , once the PC veneers are stripped away) is for me alien to my understanding of God.

The Price was paid for all, not just for Jews, or Gentiles, as Paul was constantly trying to point out to the early church converts.

I'm sorry, I didn't say and never believed you said all mankind was saved. I thought you said all mankind was ordained to salvation if they believed, etc. etc. I believe I understood your view correctly, just poor wording on my part when I attempted to repeat your thought.

 

[Stan]

Of course, is one of the hallmarks of soteriology. This particular passage from Paul is found in a passage where Paul expresses his desire for the salvation of his Jewish brethren (10:1) and he specifically speaks to specific elements of Jewish society. He wishes his former colleagues would receive Christ as the Messiah. The passage also interjects the Lordship of Christ into salvation, which was a major sticking point for the Pharisees. They refused to believe that anyone was their Lord except the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. While living under Gentile Roman political domination, they righteously said, "We were never in bondage to any man." The Sadducees refused to believe in the resurrection, and here it is a necessary ingredient for salvation. Quoting Joel, he also stressed the importance of calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

Thanks Jack, but I really wasn't looking for a history lesson, I was asking what THESE scriptures said to you. This whole comment is NOT about those verses but about the first 10 or so in Rom 10.
Bottom line is you allude to them being a HALLMARK, which is a conspicuous (Easy to notice; obvious, Attracting attention, as by being unusual or remarkable; noticeable) feature or characteristic, of this scripture. So to be clear, you are saying that you agree and concur with v9 when it says that, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

John 10 is the passage telling us of the Great Shepherd of the Sheep. He alone is the means of salvation and all who call upon Him and believe in his name will obtain eternal life. In verse 28 He tells us that that as the Great Shepherd, He gives them eternal life and no one shall snatch them out of his his hand. Interestingly, in that verse, he used a double negative "ouk, mh." The first word meaning reality while the second negative talks of possibility. Hence, once He has given us eternal life, we are not now perishing and there is no possibility we shall ever perish.

Actually John 10:9, is TELLING us who the GATE is. How to get INTO the pen. Jesus is the GATE, which you have to enter by. Those IN the pen are His sheep and in this context, the Jews. Those IN the pen are those Jews that accepted who Jesus was and entered by Him. They are now sheep (believers) that KNOW the voice of the His (the good shepherd) voice as He also teaches starting in v11. So he is the GATE and the SHEPHERD, and MANY others names as found in the NT. ALL connote a certain and particular function and attribute of our Savior Jesus. You will notice the Good Shepherd does NOT guide the sheep into or through the gate. He says, "whoever enters through me will be saved." I really have no idea why you comment on the rest of this chapter, as this is NOT a thread about Eternal Life. We dealt with that issue in the OSAS thread. Please try not to confuse the two.

Peter's Pentecostal sermon in Acts two also quotes as does Paul in . He testifies as to the Messiah who has been attested by signs and miracles. It was the Jews who looked for a sign and they received those signs that Jesus was the Messiah.
the words of Paul to the Philippian jailer emphasize the need for faith in salvation. It is impossible to please God without faith (Hb. 11:6).

So you confirm and accept that "everyone who calls and believes on the name of the Lord will be saved." ?
OK, I guess we agree that Sovereign Election is NOT scriptural. Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Jack Williamson]

Thanks Jack, but I really wasn't looking for a history lesson, I was asking what THESE scriptures said to you. This whole comment is NOT about those verses but about the first 10 or so in Rom 10.
Bottom line is you allude to them being a HALLMARK, which is a conspicuous (Easy to notice; obvious, Attracting attention, as by being unusual or remarkable; noticeable) feature or characteristic, of this scripture. So to be clear, you are saying that you agree and concur with v9 when it says that, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."



Actually John 10:9, is TELLING us who the GATE is. How to get INTO the pen. Jesus is the GATE, which you have to enter by. Those IN the pen are His sheep and in this context, the Jews. Those IN the pen are those Jews that accepted who Jesus was and entered by Him. They are now sheep (believers) that KNOW the voice of the His (the good shepherd) voice as He also teaches starting in v11. So he is the GATE and the SHEPHERD, and MANY others names as found in the NT. ALL connote a certain and particular function and attribute of our Savior Jesus. You will notice the Good Shepherd does NOT guide the sheep into or through the gate. He says, "whoever enters through me will be saved." I really have no idea why you comment on the rest of this chapter, as this is NOT a thread about Eternal Life. We dealt with that issue in the OSAS thread. Please try not to confuse the two.



So you confirm and accept that "everyone who calls and believes on the name of the Lord will be saved." ?
OK, I guess we agree that Sovereign Election is NOT scriptural. Thanks for your contribution.

Thanks Jack, but I really wasn't looking for a history lesson, I was asking what THESE scriptures said to you. This whole comment is NOT about those verses but about the first 10 or so in Rom 10.
Bottom line is you allude to them being a HALLMARK, which is a conspicuous (Easy to notice; obvious, Attracting attention, as by being unusual or remarkable; noticeable) feature or characteristic, of this scripture. So to be clear, you are saying that you agree and concur with v9 when it says that, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."



Actually John 10:9, is TELLING us who the GATE is. How to get INTO the pen. Jesus is the GATE, which you have to enter by. Those IN the pen are His sheep and in this context, the Jews. Those IN the pen are those Jews that accepted who Jesus was and entered by Him. They are now sheep (believers) that KNOW the voice of the His (the good shepherd) voice as He also teaches starting in v11. So he is the GATE and the SHEPHERD, and MANY others names as found in the NT. ALL connote a certain and particular function and attribute of our Savior Jesus. You will notice the Good Shepherd does NOT guide the sheep into or through the gate. He says, "whoever enters through me will be saved." I really have no idea why you comment on the rest of this chapter, as this is NOT a thread about Eternal Life. We dealt with that issue in the OSAS thread. Please try not to confuse the two.



So you confirm and accept that "everyone who calls and believes on the name of the Lord will be saved." ?
OK, I guess we agree that Sovereign Election is NOT scriptural. Thanks for your contribution.

Stan, you know better than that! Of course I believe Sovereign election (what I call unconditional election) is very plainly taught in Scripture in passages such as 2 Thess. 2:13 and Acts 13:48 testify. I can agree with you that Christ is the only gate and all must place their faith in Him in order to be saved. This may come as a shock to you, Stan, but not everybody agrees with your view and there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone agrees with my view and there is nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Fish153]

Read my posts more carefully please Jack...I never said all mankind is saved...I am saying all mankind has the option of choosing salvation, if they will.....The concept that God created the vast majority of sinners to damnation (the usual Calvinist view, I find , once the PC veneers are stripped away) is for me alien to my understanding of God.

The Price was paid for all, not just for Jews, or Gentiles, as Paul was constantly trying to point out to the early church converts.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you".(John 15:16)

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:64-65)

Rusty- If all mankind has the option of "choosing salvation"---has God "enabled" all of them? Why would Jesus make a point of stating that no one can come to Him unless the Father had "enabled" them if all men are "enabled" to choose salvation?

Just curious.

 

[Jack Williamson]

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you".(John 15:16)

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:64-65)

Rusty- If all mankind has the option of "choosing salvation"---has God "enabled" all of them? Why would Jesus make a point of stating that no one can come to Him unless the Father had "enabled" them if all men are "enabled" to choose salvation?

Just curious.

That is an excellent question. Along with that is John 6:44 "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him...." It actually reads, "No one has the ability to come unto me...."

 

[Stan]

Stan, you know better than that! Of course I believe Sovereign election (what I call unconditional election) is very plainly taught in Scripture in passages such as 2 Thess. 2:13 and Acts 13:48 testify. I can agree with you that Christ is the only gate and all must place their faith in Him in order to be saved. This may come as a shock to you, Stan, but not everybody agrees with your view and there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone agrees with my view and there is nothing wrong with that either.

Well that's NOT what you just wrote in post 26 Jack, and HOW can I know better, if you continually equivocate about this issue? Your lack of complete forthrightness in dealing with the scriptures I posted is disconcerting to say the least. I am NEVER shocked that people don't agree with me, just amazed in how far they are willing to go to equivocate and obfuscate what the scriptures actually say.

 

[Stan]

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you".(John 15:16)
"Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:64-65)
Rusty- If all mankind has the option of "choosing salvation"---has God "enabled" all of them? Why would Jesus make a point of stating that no one can come to Him unless the Father had "enabled" them if all men are "enabled" to choose salvation?
Just curious.

Fish the context of these verses is who God chose to be Jesus' disciples, based on His foreknowledge. Contrary to what you try to assert, Jesus is speaking to his Apostles about their role and their special place in the BOC. This is NOT directed at ALL believers. Again you practice eisegesis and IGNORE one of the scriptures I posted in the OP, that clearly says; I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
Consistently, you and Jack ignore what these scriptures clearly point out (WHOEVER) and ONLY focus on your eisegtical view of your favorite scriptures. WHOEVER, means WHOEVER, it does NOT connote ONLY who God chooses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...o&resultspp=100&displayas=long&sort=bookorder

 

[Fish153]

Fish the context of these verses is who God chose to be Jesus' disciples, based on His foreknowledge. Contrary to what you try to assert, Jesus is speaking to his Apostles about their role and their special place in the BOC. This is NOT directed at ALL believers. Again you practice eisegesis and IGNORE one of the scriptures I posted in the OP, that clearly says; I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
Consistently, you and Jack ignore what these scriptures clearly point out (WHOEVER) and ONLY focus on your eisegtical view of your favorite scriptures. WHOEVER, means WHOEVER, it does NOT connote ONLY who God chooses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...o&resultspp=100&displayas=long&sort=bookorder

Stan---

The verse above says "NO ONE can come to me unless the Father enables them". John 15 also is not directed only to the Apostles. This is obvious by Jesus saying "ANY BRANCH in me that does not bear fruit...."

John chapter 13-16, though a discourse made in front of 12 disciples, is meant for all believers. I have heard your argument before. It is a strange way to cast aside any verses that speak of "choosing" or "electing" believers---you simply make it apply to the Apostles only. John 14:2 says "In my Father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for YOU". Does the "YOU" refer to only 12 people? Of course not!

On another board there was a gentleman that insisted that John chapters 13-16 were spoken only to the Apostles. Imagine that. 4 chapters of Scripture, printed for hundreds of years, and read by billions--but only meant for 12 (ultimately 11) people! No---John 15 is not just directed to the Apostles--it is written for, and written to all believers through time. He makes this clear in John 17 when he prays for "all who will believe on me through their word".

I do clearly see where you are coming from now though. Your interpretation comes through your belief system, rather than your belief system coming from correct interpretation. All the best to you though. You are indeed missing a lot of blessings though if you insist on limiting amazing promises to just a few people. Praise God that is not true.

 

[Jack Williamson]

Well that's NOT what you just wrote in post 26 Jack, and HOW can I know better, if you continually equivocate about this issue? Your lack of complete forthrightness in dealing with the scriptures I posted is disconcerting to say the least. I am NEVER shocked that people don't agree with me, just amazed in how far they are willing to go to equivocate and obfuscate what the scriptures actually say.

That's exactly what I wrote in post #26. I respect the fact that you may not agree with my view and that's fine. I'm not equivocating about this issue at all. If nothing else, I'm a very consistent five point Calvinist. The fact that you think what I wrote is inconsistent would suggest to me that while you don't agree with it, you are not very familiar with it. What were you expecting I would say?

 

[Stan]

Stan---

The verse above says "NO ONE can come to me unless the Father enables them". John 15 also is not directed only to the Apostles. This is obvious by Jesus saying "ANY BRANCH in me that does not bear fruit...."

John chapter 13-16, though a discourse made in front of 12 disciples, is meant for all believers. I have heard your argument before. It is a strange way to cast aside any verses that speak of "choosing" or "electing" believers---you simply make it apply to the Apostles only. John 14:2 says "In my Father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for YOU". Does the "YOU" refer to only 12 people? Of course not!

On another board there was a gentleman that insisted that John chapters 13-16 were spoken only to the Apostles. Imagine that. 4 chapters of Scripture, printed for hundreds of years, and read by billions--but only meant for 12 (ultimately 11) people! No---John 15 is not just directed to the Apostles--it is written for, and written to all believers through time. He makes this clear in John 17 when he prays for "all who will believe on me through their word".

I do clearly see where you are coming from now though. Your interpretation comes through your belief system, rather than your belief system coming from correct interpretation. All the best to you though. You are indeed missing a lot of blessings though if you insist on limiting amazing promises to just a few people. Praise God that is not true.

THAT is NOT what the scripture says Fish, and even when quoting scripture you equivocate. The verse reads "“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
Draw and enable do NOT connote the same thing. We are drawn to Jesus to see what is Truth at which time we decide to accept or reject that truth. God does NOT throw a SWITCH. Again, the Word says EVERY branch. Please try and quote scriptures correctly. Stating a spiritual law does NOT show it was directed to EVERYONE as you assert. The context of this chapter from the beginning of John 13 was the Last Supper up to the end of John 17. Jesus' words CAN apply to all believers as God sees fit, but they were directed at the Apostles, and in that regard, is how I answered your assertion where you tried to affirm that CHOSE is for all believers. The rest of the Word does NOT support that and your cherry picking does nothing to show it does, except to show you eisegete scripture. I gave you over 70 scriptures that show WHOEVER and I bet you did not read ONE of them?

Yes in John 14 Jesus directed this ONLY to His Apostles, but that is another issue for another thread. Again your eisegesis of scripture is NOT tenable.

Nice try Fish, but pious blindness has always been evident in people who refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit and the Word. The Pharisees were no less condescending and biased, despite the warning from Jesus that they were very close to committing the unpardonable sin. I believe in what the Bible DOES say, IN CONTEXT.

 

[Stan]

That's exactly what I wrote in post #26. I respect the fact that you may not agree with my view and that's fine. I'm not equivocating about this issue at all. If nothing else, I'm a very consistent five point Calvinist. The fact that you think what I wrote is inconsistent would suggest to me that while you don't agree with it, you are not very familiar with it. What were you expecting I would say?

I didn't say post 26 was inconsistent Jack, I said your response to my post addressing it was inconsistent.
Your post 26, in my view, supported the Biblical teaching of WHO SO EVER WILL. You have never stated you are a 5 point Calvinist. I suspected as much, but have made that assessment of some before and they have denied it, so I wait to see what shows in their words. Your response to my OP, after much prodding, seemed to agree with what I said. Maybe you should go back over my post and correct my understanding, or did you not even read my response to each of your points?
Why is it like pulling teeth, to get you to commit to your position regarding the OP?

 

[Stan]

That is an excellent question. Along with that is John 6:44 "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him...." It actually reads, "No one has the ability to come unto me...."

It reads what it reads Jack, not what your doctrinal bias says it reads. Being drawn and having an ability are two completely different things. You and fish need to stop paraphrasing the Bible. The wholly qualified scholars have already translated it into the best English possible,

 

[Jack Williamson]

It reads what it reads Jack, not what your doctrinal bias says it reads. Being drawn and having an ability are two completely different things. You and fish need to stop paraphrasing the Bible. The wholly qualified scholars have already translated it into the best English possible,

That's your opinion, Stan, but your opinion isn't scripture any more than mine or Fish's. Disagreeing with you isn't disageeing with God Himself. Jesus actually said in John 6:44, "No one has the ability to come unto me unless the Father draws him...." I've been a seminary Greek professor for over 35 years, I can guarantee you that is exactly what is written there. No one is paraphrasing the Bible.

If someone disagrees with you, they have "doctrinal bias." Maybe they just disagree with you, did that ever occur to you?

 

[Jack Williamson]

I didn't say post 26 was inconsistent Jack, I said your response to my post addressing it was inconsistent.
Your post 26, in my view, supported the Biblical teaching of WHO SO EVER WILL. You have never stated you are a 5 point Calvinist. I suspected as much, but have made that assessment of some before and they have denied it, so I wait to see what shows in their words. Your response to my OP, after much prodding, seemed to agree with what I said. Maybe you should go back over my post and correct my understanding, or did you not even read my response to each of your points?
Why is it like pulling teeth, to get you to commit to your position regarding the OP?

Quite honestly, I've never been able to discern what your position is and I would like to know. At one time you denied that someone can lose his salvation but then you said you opposed OSAS. I don't understand that that sounds, at first blush, contradictory to me and I would like to know how you put those two things together. That would be interesting to me. You say eternal life is NOT a present possession then you say you agree with I John 5:13 "effectively," whatever that means. I don't know whether I agree or disagree with you because I can't discern what you believe. I have no desire to "correct" your understanding but I would truly would like to understand it myself.

Believe it or not, Stan, five point Calvinists also believe in "Whosoever will...." That is really not the crux of the Calvinistic/Arminian conflict.

 

[Fish153]

It reads what it reads Jack, not what your doctrinal bias says it reads. Being drawn and having an ability are two completely different things. You and fish need to stop paraphrasing the Bible. The wholly qualified scholars have already translated it into the best English possible,

"He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them" (John 6:65 NIV).

I'm fairly certain that the scholars behind the NIV and other translations knew what they were doing when they used the word "enabled". Jesus is saying that no one can come to Him unless the Father Himself has drawn/enabled them to do so. It is quite simple---it just doesn't fit your theology, so you have a problem with it.

 

[Fish153]

Bible VersionsJohnJohn 6John 6:65Compare Translations
Compare Translations for John 6:65

Compare Translations

John 6:65 NIV
New International Version
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
Read John 6 NIV | Read John 6:65 NIV in parallel
John 6:65 ASV
American Standard Version
And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
Read John 6 ASV | Read John 6:65 ASV in parallel
John 6:65 BBE
Bible in Basic English
And he said, This is why I said to you, No man is able to come to me if he is not given the power to do so by the Father.
Read John 6 BBE | Read John 6:65 BBE in parallel
John 6:65 CEB
Common English Bible
He said, "For this reason I said to you that none can come to me unless the Father enables them to do so."
Read John 6 CEB | Read John 6:65 CEB in parallel
John 6:65 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
"This," he said, "is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has made it possible for him."
Read John 6 CJB | Read John 6:65 CJB in parallel
John 6:65 RHE
Douay-Rheims
(6-66) And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
Read John 6 RHE | Read John 6:65 RHE in parallel
John 6:65 ESV
English Standard Version
And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Read John 6 ESV | Read John 6:65 ESV in parallel
John 6:65 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
So he added, "That is why I told you that people cannot come to me unless the Father provides the way."
Read John 6 GW | Read John 6:65 GW in parallel
John 6:65 GNT
Good News Translation
And he added, "This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."
Read John 6 GNT | Read John 6:65 GNT in parallel
John 6:65 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
He said, "For this cause have I said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father."
Read John 6 HNV | Read John 6:65 HNV in parallel
John 6:65 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father."
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John 6:65 KJV
King James Version
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Read John 6 KJV | Read John 6:65 KJV in parallel | Interlinear view
John 6:65 LEB
Lexham English Bible
And he said, "Because of this I said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father."

 

[Jack Williamson]

However, Jack...It's quite possible that for 35 years you have seen "draw him" as "flipping a switch"....or pulling a cosmic string. I knew a Greek expert of twice that time (yes, 70 years) who taught just the opposite. So with all due respect...age ain't got much to do with it.

You do know Greek words have dual if not more meanings. More importantly: Christ taught the unlearned in massive amounts of metaphors, illustrations and figures of speech, because they did and still do not have the luxury of scholastic microscopic investigation.

To contend that the figurative expression "draw" means drag to salvation is highly literalist and wooden. It works for fishing nets, (John 21:6) but does not work here, as Christ is not dragging at all...unless you are a universalist, which I doubt anyone posting on this thread is:


Is He dragging ALL men to Himself to a 5 point salvation? I don't see it.

Is His death on the Cross known around the world and discussed, attractive or rejected by all men?
I think so.

Your point about words having different meanings is quite correct. I use the word "trunk" as an illustration. It can mean an elephant's nose, back end of a car, part of a tree, etc. But when placed in a context, the list of meanings narrows considerably. If I said, "I packed a trunk just before vacation," the number of possible options narrows down to one. Words are defined by the context in which they are written, and the NT was written entirely in the KOINE Greek. Knowledge of that language gives us another tool to use in the understanding of the text.

Forty-five years ago, you wouldn't have found a more formidable foe of Calvinism than me. I can still vividly recall the first time I heard it and thinking how ridiculous can one be. As a matter of fact, I embarked on a Bible study to prove it wrong and I came to embrace it and now I'm thoroughly convinced that it is exactly what the Bible teaches. I've been on both sides of this issue at different times in my life which gives me a rather unique outlook on things.

I'm quite familiar with Arminian Greek scholars. Miley is perhaps the most famous and I would say he was the most formidable theologian the Arminians ever had.

No, I don't believe Christ dragged all, as a matter of fact I see Acts 13:48 teaching against that idea. As I tell my students, "Predestination is a Bible word--deal with it."

 

[Jack Williamson]

Well...haha...I find your positioning pretty much a mixed bag for me to understand Jack, to be honest.

You talk about being a staunch "5 Point Calvinist" or TULIP advocate. Therefore you agree with this, right?"

Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646...


This was what I was germane to my post # 27...which you attempted (and apologized) to paint with a universalism spin.

Yes, I would agree with this particular paragraph from the Westminster Confession. The entire Confession is a Presbyterian document and many parts of it I would not accept, but this paragraph, yes. I would also accept the Second London Confession's statement on soteriology, the complete New Hampshire Confession, and the Baptist Faith and Message.

 

[Stan]

That's your opinion, Stan, but your opinion isn't scripture any more than mine or Fish's. Disagreeing with you isn't disagreeing with God Himself. Jesus actually said in John 6:44, "No one has the ability to come unto me unless the Father draws him...." I've been a seminary Greek professor for over 35 years, I can guarantee you that is exactly what is written there. No one is paraphrasing the Bible.
If someone disagrees with you, they have "doctrinal bias." Maybe they just disagree with you, did that ever occur to you?

No, that's what the verse says Jack;
οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν,κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.

It's NOT an opinion, it's what the word says. I wouldn't brag about being a Greek professor if you don't agree with what all the current Greek scholars translate this verse as. Again you equivocate about A word instead of dealing with the point of the OP.
To say sinners do NOT have the ability to do anything good, is NOT taught in scriptures.
I quote God's word and RIGHTLY divide it. IF you paraphrase God's Word, then you are NOT agreeing with what He inspired men to write, NOT me.