Hello @Seedsower,Scripture tells us that God spoke to Moses face-to-face as a man speaks to his friend. However, a few verses later God tells Moses that no-one can see His face and live: Ex. 33:11; 33:20. How does one explain this theologically speaking as this is not a contradiction?
Thanks Chris. However in the passage in question God's face is not used figuratively.Hello @Seedsower,
'And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face,
as a man speaketh unto his friend. ... '
(Exo 33:11a)
'And he said,
Thou canst not see My face:
for there shall no man see Me, and live.'
(Exo 33:20) see v.23 also.
'Face' - when used figuratively of God, emphasizes His Divine presence in happiness (Psalm16:11), and of Divine favour (1 Corinthians 13:12; Jonah 1:3; Psalm 51:11) , Moses was in God's presence.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Ref: 'Figures of Speech used in Scripture' by Dr E.W. Bullinger
I think Moses was so intimate with God that it is written in human terms as "face to face". The problem is trying to contain God in human words!! When it says no can see His face and live, no one can see Him in His full glory and live.Scripture tells us that God spoke to Moses face-to-face as a man speaks to his friend. However, a few verses later God tells Moses that no-one can see His face and live: Ex. 33:11; 34:20. How does one explain this theologically speaking as this is not a contradiction?
Hello @Seedsower,Thanks Chris. However in the passage in question God's face is not used figuratively.
It all depends on who's mirror you are looking into. If you look in the mirror in your bathroom, then you will just see your physical face, but if you look into God's mirror, (the Word of God) you see Christ in you the hope of Glory.If I look at my face in a mirror, would it true if I said that I had seen my face? Well yes and no.
Hello @CCW95A,It all depends on who's mirror you are looking into. If you look in the mirror in your bathroom, then you will just see your physical face, but if you look into God's mirror, (the Word of God) you see Christ in you the hope of Glory.
Thanks to all who've replied thus far. My own understanding goes like this: If I look at my face in a mirror, would it true if I said that I had seen my face? Well yes and no. I would have seen a near perfect reflection but not my actual face. I believe Moses saw a Theophany or an appearance of the second person of the trinity, the pre-incarnate Christ, a reflection of God and His glory but not God in His essence. There are Theophany in scripture, such as The Captain of The Lord's Hosts in Joshua and The angel of The Lord to Manoah in Judges. That's been my understanding but appreciate all other opinions so please keep posting!
A Theophany or Christophany is what scholars call an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ. The Angel of The Lord in the O.T. is a case in point. In the N.T. The Angel should be translated an angel as Christ had been born. To answer you I believe that a Theophany is a possible explanation of who Moses saw as he could not have seen God in the fullness of His Divine essence.Hello @Seedsower,
You believe that Moses spoke face to face with the pre-incarnate Christ.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I wonder how you plan on being Christ like in this life if you never see Jesus Christ in the "mirror" of his Word.Hello @CCW95A,
You have again, taken something and used it for your own ends. This is not what Seedsower was talking about.
When I look in the Word of God, I see what the Holy Spirit would have me see at that time: It may be the truth that 'Christ in you' (referring to believing gentiles corporately) is, 'our hope of Glory', (which is wonderful - Praise God!), but it could be something quite different, according to His purpose.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello @Seedsower,
'And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face,
as a man speaketh unto his friend. ... '
(Exo 33:11a)
'And he said,
Thou canst not see My face:
for there shall no man see Me, and live.'
(Exo 33:20) see v.23 also.
'Face' - when used figuratively of God, emphasizes His Divine presence in happiness (Psalm16:11), and of Divine favour (1 Corinthians 13:12; Jonah 1:3; Psalm 51:11) , Moses was in God's presence.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Ref: 'Figures of Speech used in Scripture' by Dr E.W. Bullinger
Well put bro!To speak to a person face to face is not as it were down a mobile phone.
It conveys at the very least an intimacy of communication and of a directness few it seems are willing to 'face'
Does not the scripture say also "Seek my face"?
To which David replied "thy face will I seek."
The presence of God is for every child of God though how many are aware of that presence of God is another matter .
But you can be aware of the presence of God and still not see His face .
Yet the scriptures also say that we see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ!
The scriptures speak of little children. as it also speaks of young men ,
But it also speaks of "ye fathers ,ye know Him who is from the beginning " I would suggest that in the main the church does not know God as much or as well as it thinks it does and certainly does not know Him who is from the beginning .
How can it when so many deny what is written "in the beginning"?
Was it not the same Holy Spirit who inspired that part as all the rest?
Then perhaps we should then seek the face of Him who is from the beginning and we may then like Job confess "I have heard of thee ,but now mine eyes seeth thee.........."
in Christ
gerald
I think you have missed the point somewhat. I was referring in my OP to Moses and the fact that God said that no one can see His face and live. Yet God spoke with Moses face-to-face. As this is not a contradiction, who did Moses see?The problem stems from the fact that we are not truly loving Jesus as he said we should.
John.. 14:21.. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth (to guard, and protect) them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Guard and protect the Word from what? The lusts of other things, the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of this world. (Mark 4:19)
What if this is done, then how does Jesus love us back?
I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The word "manifest" means, "to cause to be seen, to make appear, to show openly"
If we have never seen Jesus maybe we are not loving him! Jesus guarantees to manifest himself to those who really love him.
I think you have missed the point somewhat. I was referring in my OP to Moses and the fact that God said that no one can see His face and live. Yet God spoke with Moses face-to-face. As this is not a contradiction, who did Moses see?