Seeing God

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Seedsower, Apr 21, 2016.

  1. As with all seeming contradictions, it's the translations that's been lost. There are two words in Hebrew that is translated "man". adam, and aish, In Exo 33:11 the word "man" is aish has the meanings of friend, man, champion, one of high degree. Whereas adam in Exo 33:20 has the meaning of man, hypocrite, common sort, low degree. So no "man of low degree" - sinner, can see God's face and live. Why?

    Proverbs 2:22 (KJV)
    But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. ​

    Psalms 37:28 (KJV)
    For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. ​

    This word wicked is also translated as immoral, morally wrong, and a bad person. So, what Hebrew is saying is, a sinner cannot see God face to face and live. A righteous person can. I hope this helps.
     
    CCW95A likes this.
  2. There is another word for man too, enosh meaning mortal or frailty. This is the word most used by Job.
     
  3. Moses did see God's face on the mount of transfiguration when Jesus appeared in his Glory to Moses, and Elijah, with Peter, James, and John. Someone might say, yeh but, that was thousands of years later than the burning bush. There is no time in eternity, it is irrelevant.
     
    Abdicate likes this.
  4. You have given the easy reply. You are correct but there is more to it. Moses saw a Theophany just as Joshua did when he saw The Captain of The Lord's Hosts. However, there are different manifestations of said Theophanys and that is the crux of the matter.
     
  5. #25 Complete, May 20, 2016
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
    Hello @Abdicate,

    'And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.' (Exodus 22:11)
    'And He said, "Thou canst not see My face: for there shall no man see Me and live."'(Exodus 33:20)
    '"And I will take away Mine hand, and thou shall see My back parts: My face shall not be seen."(Exodus 33:23)'

    * There is no contradiction here at all, but this has already been discussed earlier in the thread.
    'Face to face', means speaking directly to someone, rather than in a vision/dream.

    'My servant Moses is not so,
    who is faithful in all mine house.

    With him will I speak mouth to mouth,
    even apparently, and not in dark speeches;

    and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
    wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
    (Num 12:7,8)

    * What you say concerning the word, 'man', in Exodus 33:11 (H376 -'iysh') , is interesting, and the words of Numbers 12:7,8, show the regard which the Lord had for Moses; yet, in Exodus 33:23, Moses was still not allowed to see His face: so I do not think that the meaning of the word 'man' in Exodus 33:11 has any bearing.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris








     
  6. #26 Complete, May 20, 2016
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
    Hi @Seedsower,

    What did you mean when you said, 'However, there are different manifestations of said Theophanys and that is the crux of the matter.'
    The 'crux' of what matter? Forgive me, I am a little lost here. :)

    Also, why should we assume that Moses saw a theophany? When seeing God's face was obviously denied him (see previous entry), so the words, 'face to face,' has to have the meaning of 'speaking directly', rather than that Moses actually saw God's face.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    our risen and glorified,
    Saviour, Lord and Head.

    Whose Name be praised!

    Chris



     
  7. ANY contradiction in scripture is only on the surface and always means you have to dig deeper .
    It is not wise at all to simply look at one scripture or even two but must see each verse in the light of all scripture. Not all scripture (or doubt scripture) by the one verse.
    Any question we may ask has to be on the foundation of belief not unbelief.
    For example the father of John the baptist when told his aged and barren wife was going to concieve a child he did not believe the angel but asked how can this be ? or true.
    Mary on the other hand when told by the angel she would soon conceive a child believed but sought more light on the matter .
    "How can this be seeign I know not a man"
    She recieved more light . The father was struck dumb for 9 months for his impertinance.

    There is of course another sort of question which was the first question recorded in scripture ..
    "Yea hath God said........................."variety . This sort of question looks like the questioner is a seeker after light . But in truth he sought but a religious 'debate' in the midst of which he could sow confusion ,doubt and a lie.

    You ask who then did he talk to and 'see' .Does not the scripture plainly state it?
    Why then do you doubt ? or not believe .
    and if another scripture says no man can see God and live .Ill give you another to contradict it also ;the words of Jesus who said "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God "

    I believe both the Father and the Son as I also believe the Holy Spirit that inspired the men to write what they have and did .
    As God has but one mind and knows His own mind and means what He says and says what He means how am I then to reconcile these apparant contradictions ?
    is it not the Spirit of truth that leads us into all truth and are we not told to lean not upon our OWN understanding but to trust in the Lord" who " knows the mind of God"?

    Then I say that all paradoxes and contradictions are perfectly resolved IN Christ . Never outside of Christ .

    In Christ
    gerald
     
  8. It is not so much the accurate translations that have been lost .But rather mans willingness to lean more upon the Spirit of truth than upon his own intelectual, capabilities .
    For man by wisdom knew not God " and if without the Holy Spirit man is dead and lost without hope in this world and he needs must be BORN again by the Spirit of God and the Word of God .
    How is it that men then think that when he is BORNagain he no longer needs either the Word of God and the Spirit of God for any further understanding?

    We have an accurate English translation of scripture . Its men who do not want it that is at fault .

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  9. It is of no use measuring scripture by our own spiritual experience or lack of it .
    For if we do we will brign the scrriptures down to our experience .
    We are to hold up scripture above all and seek by the grace of God to bring our experience up into conformity with what the scriptures speak of .

    If you look at the life of Moses you will find a man of progression from one of ignorance of God having only first HEARD of God .
    But even by what he had heard he had understood that God would deliver Gods people by his hand.
    But what God says must be done in the Spirit and by God cannot be done in the flesh.
    Thus his first attempt ended in failure and he fled Egypt.
    40 YEARS later he met with God and was terrified and could (if eh did at all) look up .
    For he understood God was HOLY and he was not .
    and whiel before he was bold enough to kill the egyptian now he was timid enough to ask to send some one else.
    For he was of no use to God while he was somebody in Egypt.
    God first had to make him a nobody (in his own eyes also)
    Then God could make him a somebody in Gods eyes and in the eyes of Gods people .
    If you follow his life you will find his fellowship with God and his confidence increased as he came to know God.
    This applies to all in scripture .
    As it should also apply to us .
    I fear though that the church does not know God at all but has only heard of Him Or at best as "little children"
    and though there is much boasting of this and that . The reality is quiet different.
    if then people do know God they do not know Him as much as they think they do.
    How can it be otherwise ? When people who profess to be christians deny the Word of God lean more upon their own understanding rather than trust the Lord who was promised to lead us into all truth?
    and how can any one know "Him who is from the beginning" when they do not believe HIM who inspired men to so write what is "in the beginning"?

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  10. Thanks but the question I asked was rhetorical as I have heard different answers to this question. I gave my opinion in my OP so anyone reading it would know that I do not doubt nor approach scripture from the negative viewpoint of unbelief. The examples you site are not contradictions, not even apparent contradictions. Scripture interprets scripture and context guides interpretation.
     
    Complete likes this.
  11. As I was replying not only directly to you but also to anybody who might be either confused by the various opinions or misdirected I simply answered to cover the basics..
    as there are many men so too are there many opinions , in the things of God an opinion is not worth much as it is the truth that is needed .
    I was thus pointing out what some may call contradictions are not .I was not saying they were. Though your rhetorical question may by some think there was.

    in Christ
    gerald.
     
  12. Thanks for clearing that up, it's a pity you didn't state that in your reply. However, your comments are appreciated.
     

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