Saved Since Eternity Past: Eph 1:4! -netchaplain

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. I've presented this material, which concerns our eternal assurance, not to refute opositional concepts to its ideals, but because I thought it should be seen. I don't believe the Truth needs defended, anymore than a lion needs defended!

    Ephesians 1:4, ". . . He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . . ."

    "The knowledge of the truth" (Heb 10:26). Knowledge of the truth, which is salvation by Christ; of which there may be a notional knowledge, when there is no experimental knowledge; and which is received not into the heart, but into the head. Gill

    Before Christ saves us, we willfully sinned and those that continue in this manner, even after having knowledge of the truth (which only leads to salvation but doesn't save, Christ saves), will not come to salvation in Christ. These are the same as those who "draw back" (Heb 10:38, 39) or withdraw (1 Jhn 2:19) before entering into salvation.

    "The blood of the covenant that sanctified him" (Heb 10:29) must refere to Christ being sacntified by "the blood of His covenant" (Mat 26:28). As Aron and his sons and grandsons were sanctified by blood for the priesthood (Lev 8:30), so is Christ also sanctified, for His "unchangeable priesthood" (Heb 7:24).

    The reason why the phrase "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" cannot refer to an apostate is because all who are sanctified by Christ are "perfected (complete) forever" (Hbr 10:14). Once being sanctified by Christ and saved, it is eternal, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29).

    "For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame" (Heb 6:4-6).

    "Enlightened, as to see the evil effects of sin, but not the evil that is in sin; to see the good things which come by Christ, but not the goodness that is in Christ; so as to reform externally, but not to be sanctified internally; to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally, but not experimentally; yea, to have such light into it, as to be able to preach it to others, and yet be destitute of the grace of God." Gill

    "Tasted: There are those who taste, but dislike what they taste; have no true love to Christ, and faith in him; or have only a carnal taste of him, know him only after the flesh, or externally, not inwardly and experimentally; or they have only a superficial taste, such as is opposed to eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ, by faith, which is proper to true believers; the gust they have is but temporary, and arises from selfish principles." Gill

    "Partakers of the Holy Spirit: is sometimes meant the gifts of the Spirit, ordinary or extraordinary, 1 Corinthians 12:4 and so here; and men may be said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost, to whom he gives wisdom and prudence in things natural and civil; the knowledge of things divine and evangelical, in an external way; the power of working miracles, of prophesying, of speaking with tongues, and of the interpretation of tongues; for the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost seem chiefly designed here, which some, in the first times of the Gospel, were partakers of, who had no share in special grace. "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness' " (Mat 7:22, 23).

    P.S. I apologize for this to Amin., as I didn't see the note on another thread before posting this, concerning giving the OSAS issue a pause.
  2. Yup God choose all that are to be redeemed, Paul talks a lot about it and I see a lot of God's. choosing. in the old testament. as well as the new testament, which is why I'm a calvinst but I rarely. talk about this subject because. a lot of people don't. Luke the whole predestined thing.
  3. "The reason why the phrase "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" cannot refer to an apostate is because all who are sanctified by Christ are "perfected (complete) forever" (Hbr 10:14). Once being sanctified by Christ and saved, it is eternal, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29)."

    AMEN my brother! Great Post!
  4. Agreed. I am probably about a 4.5 on the "Tulip" scale of 5. is not that a lot of people do not talk about predestination, it is because they do not fully grasp its meaning my friend!
  5. Prescience does not demand predestination. The fact that God has known the outcome of all things
    from the beginning does not in any way infer that we have no choice in the matter. It is simply that God
    knew our choices before we made them. I find predestination to be a particularly horrendous belief due to
    it's placing the burden of damnation of each and every fallen soul directly on God's head. If they were "predestined',
    then they had no "choice", no "free will", and were created only to be damned. It also makes a mockery of grace, stating
    that those who recieved God's grace also had no choice in the matter.

    In other words, it is the same as saying, you chosen folks there, it's off to Heaven for you, regardless of your behavior,
    and for the rest of you unlucky saps, it's off to the fire, no, you never had a choice, move along.

    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
    That plainly states a choice on the persons part, not predestination.
    KingJ likes this.
  6. It is important to understand exactly what someone implies when they talk on pre-destination. Mankind was pre-destined 'in-Christ'.
  7. King, are you suggesting that all mankind was predestined for salvation in Christ? Thanks in advance for clarifying.
  8. Morning Glo....
    In many ways I agree with you. Allow me to use your posting to expound a little on this subject for all of us.

    Ephesians 1:4-5
    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will".

    These may be the most difficult verses in The Bible to grasp. They are actually repulsive to the natural man and the average believer finds them difficult to accept at face value. The statements are very clear but the truth they convey is hard to receive.

    Notice verse #4 carfully and we will see the word "ACCORDING AS". That is a connective phrase that modifies the preseeding statement in verse #3.

    Verse 3 tells us........
    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ".

    The spiritual blessings which we are given are in accord with the divine will of God. All is done in perfect unison with God's purpose. "ACCORDING AS" looks back to the three in one blessing of verse #3. There are actually and ought to be three "INS" in verse #3. There is first of all...
    1). IN all spiritual blessings which are then wrapped
    2). IN the heavenlies,
    3). and finally put in the larger package of.....IN CHRIST.

    What has that got to do with PREDESTINATION???? EVERYTHING!!!!

    "ACCORDING AS He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" tells us that God planned our salvation way back younder in eternity past. It was then the Lord Jesus who came down and wrought out our salvation upon the cross when the fullness of time had come. God the Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us of sin today and points us to Christ for the cleansing of that sin. He brings us to the place of faith in Christ and to a saving knowledge of the grace of God that is revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The verses mean that God did the choosing. He did not choose us because we were good or pretty or sweet. The entire choice is thrown back upon the sovereignty of the wisdom and goodness of God alone.

    Harry Ironside told a story where a little boy was asked........."Have you found Jesus"???
    The little boy responded....."I didn't know that he was lost, but He found me when I was lost".

    We do not find Jesus.....He finds us!!!! He has chosen us before the foundation of the world.

    Dr. Spurgeon once wrote..............."God choose me before I came into this world because if He waited until I got here, He would have never chosen me".

    YES I know that is a hard pill to swallow. Been there and done that myself.

    I cannot repeat often enough that predestination is God's choosing us in Christ. I also need to emphasize that men are not lost because THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ELECTED!!!.

    This is to me the KEY of understanding this. THE LOST PERSON IS NOT LOST BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ELECTED!!!!

    They are lost because they are sinners !!!!

    The "freewill" of man IS NOT violated because of the election of God. The lost man makes his own choice!!!!!

    Augustine said it like this........"If there be not free will grace in God, how can He save the world? And if there be not free will in man, how can the world by God be judged".

    Now, let me ad this to our conversation. When it refers to God, PREDESTINATION has to do with God's purpose with those He chooses. PREDESTINATION in never used in referance to un-saved people. We here the argument all the time..............God chooses who will go to heaven and who goes to hell". NOT SO!!!!

    A lost person is lost because they are a SINNER and have rejected God's cure for SIN which is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is just like a dying man to whom the doctor says............"if you take this medicine it will heal you".
    The man looks at the doctor and says..........."I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU".
    He rejects the cure and dies when he could have accepted the cure and lived.

    God has provided a cure for all men because ALL men are sin sick. God never predestinated anybody to be lost!!!
    Predestination only refers to those who are saved!!!

    That my friends is where your FREE WILL OF CHOICE comes in. We all have to determine for ourselves what our choice will be. Will we choose to accept the cure for our sin sickness or reject the cure. The choice is ours to make................BUT GOD KNOWES WHO WILL MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE!!!

  9. Hello :)

    Yes. All of mankind was predestined to be in Christ. Not implying that all mankind will be in heaven. But rather that the invitation to be 'in Christ' is given to all mankind.

    Ephesians 1:11-13
    11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    It is important that we understand only after we heard, trusted and believed were we sealed in Christ.

    Does God know who is going to hell? Very likely. He can't help the fact that He is God. But this must not cause us to make the huge mistake of assuming God has not given us free will and created people to go to hell. This would be in direct conflict with all the scriptures explaining that God is NO respecter of persons. I have stated that phrase a million times already :) . It is so important that it sinks in.
  10. KingJ,

    Predestination is a term that is used in the Bible of what is going to happen, not merely what could happen. Just something to think about.
  11. Hi KingJ.

    You posted this...........
    But rather that the invitation to be 'in Christ' is given to all mankind.

    Excellent responce my friend. You wrapped it up in one sentance. ALL are invited, but few accept the invitation.

    John 3:16...
    "For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    The Bible teaches that God is sovereign, and that believers are predestined and elected by God to spend eternity with Him. The key to understnading is that nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate election with damnation. The Scriptures teach that God elects for salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice. Every passage of the Bible that deals with election deals with it in the context of salvation, not damnation. No one is elect for hell. The only support for such a view is human logic, not biblical revelation.
  12. Absolutely correct my friend!
  13. "Having predestinated us,.... Predestination, taken in a large sense, includes both election and reprobation, and even reaches to all affairs and occurrences in the world; to the persons, lives, and circumstances of men; to all mercies, temporal or spiritual; and to all afflictions, whether in love or in wrath: and indeed providence, or the dispensations of providence, are no other than the execution of divine predestination; but here it is the same with election, and is concerned with the same persons, and has regard to a special blessing, the elect are appointed to, as follows;

    "Unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself; by which is meant, the grace of adoption, which is an act of the Father's love, a blessing provided and secured in the covenant of grace; and is of persons to an inheritance, to which they have no legal right; and is entirely free, there being no need on the adopter's part, and no worth on the part of the adopted." -Gill
  14. If you keep quoting Gill, someone is going to call you "old fashioned".
  15. Yes, it's the old fasion theologians with the best commentaries. I try to use what I believe teaches the most accurate as possible.
    Major likes this.
  16. @glomung , it doesnt make a mockery of grace .Predestination just shows all glory goes to God 100% not some for us then some for him , and plus if we had to work for it, it wouldnt be a free gift. We get no Glory its all for God.
  17. AMEN my brother and may the Lord bless you as you do it!!!
  18. How is the idea of an "eternity past" even sensible?
  19. It is really not that hard to make sense of "eternity past".

    John 1:1.........
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2The same was in the beginning with God."

    Now WHEN actually was that? IN THE BEGINNING! OK......When was the beginning???? IN ETERNITY PAST!!!

    I believe that when God created the universe, God then also created time when he created the universe. IMHO that simply means that God doesn't follow time. He exists in all time, in some way or another, future and past at the same time. Time which only exists in our reality, makes us subject to it but which God is not limited to.
  20. Hi Pancakes and God's blessings to you! You post is very applicable, instructional and encouraging. Thanks!!

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