Revelation 12:1

[Decoder]

I am not sure how your response speaks to who the woman in Rev. 12 is.

there are reasons to see her as an event in the 1st century setting, not our future, and the 1st page of the book did say so.

after refuge in Pella (across the Jordan, to survive the destruction of the country), many of those believers made their way to the Little Asia districts where the letters to the churches were sent, and they are spoken to very directly about situations in those churches. This matters if you are tracking the idea of the women being taken care of in the desert for a few years.

 

[Decoder]

Again....I am struggeling to grasp what you are aiming at, but if I am, understanding you then....

Revelation 6:7-8 says,
"When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth."

So in rapid order, 25% of the earth’s people will die. A quarter of 7.3 billion people is 1,830,398,495 dead. That’s 1.8 Billion dead.

So after a fourth of the population dies, we have 5,491,195,486 remaining on earth. That’s 5.4 Billion people.

Revelation 9:18 says that another third will die quickly also, this time in the Trumpet Judgment. “By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.”

This means that a third of 5.4 billion people will die. That’s another 1,812,094,510 billion dead. Billion with a B.

By now there are 3,679,100,976 people left.

Jesus said that if he did not come back, ALL FLESH would die. (Matthew 24:22)

Is that where you get the -275%???

There is not one star out there that could 'fall' to the earth and it survive. So, some or all of this expression is meant otherwise, not the exact mathematics you are using. There are Judaic references that 'stars' were actually leaders in Judaism, which introduces a completely different sense to all of this. This came from Babylon and the Chaldeans where a star seen in the east definitely meant 'Israel--world king.' The literature style actually began in the mid 1st century BC, called 'apocalyptic' or 'revealing what is behind.' There are several apocalyptics in the DSS and Qumran. They have been called the cartoons of the period.

The expression 'of/upon/over' the earth in the Gospels is often confined to Israel, and in the 'no stone on another' speech, the known world would be Rome at the time, and it did nearly collapse, and there was much rumor of revolution. Idumea almost never stopped trying to get Israel to create a rupture in the Roman perimeter during the entire 1st century!

The type of literature of the Rev is almost unreadable through loss of fluency and comparison, so for us out here in the mid-West to pick it up 2000 years later and read it schematically and mathematically doesn't really work. The Reformation said 'symbolic material must be interpreted by ordinary didactic passages.' So there needs to be solid ordinary-language proof elsewhere. (That's why I mentioned what "Israel" is in Romans 9-11). I'm intrigued that God has seen fit to preserve ordinary language comparisons far more than those in apocalyptic.

Sometimes we are locked into pure biological reality: the babies nursing at the time of Jesus would see the end of the nation by the time they were adults, Lk 23, when people would 'call to the mountains to fall on them' because of the horrid conditions in Jerusalem. As you know that line is in the Rev, but obviously it is locked into that generation by sheer physiological reality.

 

[Decoder]

But let's assume the mathematical/schematic version.
Instead of starting with the pale horse's 25% reduction, we have to go back to the white, the fiery, and the black and assume there is a % there. 10? 25% is very common in John's writing, sometimes 1/3 almost more times than possible...

At the 6th judgement, if you are familiar with celestial mechanics, you know that the earth cannot survive a minute without the sun. We are told of a sun that is black. We are told that multiple stars fell. So in that case my 275% figure is way too low now. My bad. If there is no intention of precision, there must be some other intention of the passage, of the whole scroll: pastoral, for example.

We are told that every mountain on earth was removed and every island. The physical spectre of the removal of every mountain is unbelievable. The Rockies run from western Alaska to most of Mexico. At least 7 major cities come to mind there, and I haven't even consulted a map! Gone. At this point, it says all the mighty people of the earth seek refuge. You would think they would be saying, 'this is nothing' because of the 3.6B left that you mentioned.

In ch 8, a fire is thrown from heaven, and a person could say 'game over' just from that. In addition, 1/3 of the earth burns (I don't think our atmosphere can do that--can recover). 1/3 of trees are gone, all grass is gone. Supply chain disruption. Oxygen disruption.

When a burning mountain hits the earth, 1/3 of water turns to blood, which kills 1/3 of life and sinks 1/3 of ships.

I think it is also fair to say by this time that the 1/3 figure is a bit too tidy.

It is not that kind of writing.

 

[Major]

There is not one star out there that could 'fall' to the earth and it survive. So, some or all of this expression is meant otherwise, not the exact mathematics you are using. There are Judaic references that 'stars' were actually leaders in Judaism, which introduces a completely different sense to all of this. This came from Babylon and the Chaldeans where a star seen in the east definitely meant 'Israel--world king.' The literature style actually began in the mid 1st century BC, called 'apocalyptic' or 'revealing what is behind.' There are several apocalyptics in the DSS and Qumran. They have been called the cartoons of the period.

The expression 'of/upon/over' the earth in the Gospels is often confined to Israel, and in the 'no stone on another' speech, the known world would be Rome at the time, and it did nearly collapse, and there was much rumor of revolution. Idumea almost never stopped trying to get Israel to create a rupture in the Roman perimeter during the entire 1st century!

The type of literature of the Rev is almost unreadable through loss of fluency and comparison, so for us out here in the mid-West to pick it up 2000 years later and read it schematically and mathematically doesn't really work. The Reformation said 'symbolic material must be interpreted by ordinary didactic passages.' So there needs to be solid ordinary-language proof elsewhere. (That's why I mentioned what "Israel" is in Romans 9-11). I'm intrigued that God has seen fit to preserve ordinary language comparisons far more than those in apocalyptic.

Sometimes we are locked into pure biological reality: the babies nursing at the time of Jesus would see the end of the nation by the time they were adults, Lk 23, when people would 'call to the mountains to fall on them' because of the horrid conditions in Jerusalem. As you know that line is in the Rev, but obviously it is locked into that generation by sheer physiological reality.

A "Star" in Scripture, especially in prophecy, is any heavenly light. "Size" is not in view and is not applicable.

Now I may be in error here, but it seems that you are working to minimize the literal and future theology of the Revelation and End Times.

I am also beginning to think that you are suggesting the "Preterist" position of theology.

Feel free to correct me.

 

[Major]

there are reasons to see her as an event in the 1st century setting, not our future, and the 1st page of the book did say so.

after refuge in Pella (across the Jordan, to survive the destruction of the country), many of those believers made their way to the Little Asia districts where the letters to the churches were sent, and they are spoken to very directly about situations in those churches. This matters if you are tracking the idea of the women being taken care of in the desert for a few years.

That would be the Preterist position.

Matt. 24:15-22 which was directed at the Jews in Israel by Jesus...........
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever readeth, let him understand): then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains: let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe to those who are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved”.

This is very clearly a prophecy that applies to Israel as it is aimed at protecting a remnant of this nation from annihilation by Satan and the Antichrist during the dark days of the great tribulation – that is the last 3½ years of the tribulation period.

The Sabbath laws are anyway only enforced in Israel, when only a short journey of about one kilometer may be undertaken – according to Acts 1:12, that is the distance between Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives – in which case the forces of the Antichrist will catch up with them and kill them. The Jews should pray that their journey will not be retarded by winter cold, expectant mothers or those with small babies since they would also not get away quickly enough.

This flight is also described in Revelation 12, ( focus of the OP_) where Israel is likened to a married woman with child. This metaphor is different to that used for the church, which is portrayed as a betrothed virgin in 2 Corinthians 11:2, who will be the bride of Christ. Israel is described as a woman who was chosen by God and through whom His Son, Jesus Christ, was born in the flesh. In Isaiah 54:5, God says about her:.......
“For your Maker is your Husband, the Lord of hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.”

Now then, within this perspective, the following Scripture from Revelation 12 should be quite clear:.................

“Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars… And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns… And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born".

[Herod was used by Satan for this purpose when he ordered the killing of Jewish boys under the age of two – Mt. 2:16].

She (Israel) bore a male Child (Jesus) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. That has never happened!!!!!
Because God can not lie, it must happen which is what the 1000 year rule of Christ is all about!!!

And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne [The Ascension]. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there 1260 days [the future flight to Petra]” and that is what we see in Rev. 12:1-6.

 

[Decoder]

A "Star" in Scripture, especially in prophecy, is any heavenly light. "Size" is not in view and is not applicable.

Now I may be in error here, but it seems that you are working to minimize the literal and future theology of the Revelation and End Times.

I am also beginning to think that you are suggesting the "Preterist" position of theology.

Feel free to correct me.

I'm a historian and a translator. To prepare to write 'Luke-Acts and the Jewish Revolt', I translated a year in Josephus JEWISH WAR, and of course Luke-Acts, which is only a little easier. The biological/physiologically necessary reading of Lk 23 about the nursing babies calling (as adults) for the mountains to fall on them (Rev 7) is clear enough about when these things apply.

Sorry but "Size" is not in view and is not applicable" is neither a literal or rational thing to say. Stars have a literal size, and you think the text is more literal than I do. There simply is not one star anywhere that can get close to the earth without consuming it. The ancient Greek astronomer knew that there was gobs of space between planets and stars; he did not think there was a 'dome' over earth. They knew this much scientifically.

To be a true student, you should not be asking about system alliances; you should be asking what a text actually means as originally written, if we can find out, and why they would write it. John just wants believers to be resilient enough to know that when they are dying and its unfair, they have the ultimate victory over the bad guys. Do not invest emotions on anything more precise than that, it is folly. The past 200 years of futurism is folly and irrational. Modern Israel came about partly by atheist terrorists who wanted to set up socialist communities for kids, phase out families for collectives, and as Begin said, become the master race of the world. It is a bit revenge-driven, I think. It also echoes certain things in recent Europe. Not found in the apostles.

The secular 19th century novelist Elliot George (Jane Evans) was brilliant but inexplicably jumped in with the return-migration Jews interest in their homeland because of OT promises and prophets. They got a huge boost from her. She had no other religious spark in her, and that is my point. The Jews she depicted, and she herself, had utterly no fluency in what the apostles actually said, of Acts 2, 3, 13, 26, Gal 3-4, Rom 3-4, 2 Peter 3, Hebrews (!) nothing. There is not a trace of the Spirit of God in her and them in this return thinking. 2500 uses of the OT by the NT? Don't know a thing. But return to their land? That answers everything. It is Spirit-less and totally "literal."

The time is at hand, means it was about to take place. There's no need to work to make it current.

 

[Decoder]

That would be the Preterist position.

Matt. 24:15-22 which was directed at the Jews in Israel by Jesus...........
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever readeth, let him understand): then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains: let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe to those who are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved”.

This is very clearly a prophecy that applies to Israel as it is aimed at protecting a remnant of this nation from annihilation by Satan and the Antichrist during the dark days of the great tribulation – that is the last 3½ years of the tribulation period.

The Sabbath laws are anyway only enforced in Israel, when only a short journey of about one kilometer may be undertaken – according to Acts 1:12, that is the distance between Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives – in which case the forces of the Antichrist will catch up with them and kill them. The Jews should pray that their journey will not be retarded by winter cold, expectant mothers or those with small babies since they would also not get away quickly enough.

This flight is also described in Revelation 12, ( focus of the OP_) where Israel is likened to a married woman with child. This metaphor is different to that used for the church, which is portrayed as a betrothed virgin in 2 Corinthians 11:2, who will be the bride of Christ. Israel is described as a woman who was chosen by God and through whom His Son, Jesus Christ, was born in the flesh. In Isaiah 54:5, God says about her:.......
“For your Maker is your Husband, the Lord of hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.”

Now then, within this perspective, the following Scripture from Revelation 12 should be quite clear:.................

“Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars… And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns… And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born".

[Herod was used by Satan for this purpose when he ordered the killing of Jewish boys under the age of two – Mt. 2:16].

She (Israel) bore a male Child (Jesus) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. That has never happened!!!!!
Because God can not lie, it must happen which is what the 1000 year rule of Christ is all about!!!

And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne [The Ascension]. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there 1260 days [the future flight to Petra]” and that is what we see in Rev. 12:1-6.

The Matt 24:15 segment is 1st century Judea. There were actually 3 leaders who considered themselves God's chosen leader--notwithstanding the fact that they fought with each over it! John of Gischala, Simon ben-Giora and Eleazar. John dominated.

The line from Daniel 9 means when you see them (above) in the temple (using it as a defense fortress) you need to get out. Jesus had already warned that the insurrectionists (the 'leistes') were milking temple money for their cause, in the cleansing of the temple. The Christians did not leave quite soon enough, yet they were still given a window during the interruption of the siege, the senate strife, the 'year of the 4 emperors.'

The end of Daniel 9 is a very clear description of the turmoil of Israel's last generation; I happen to think the end of the last week stretches to be a generation; 'the end will come like a flood' meaning an elongated event.

Please notice that anti-Christ just means to be against Christ and the Jewish zealots were as he described: forming ranks in the desert, turning the temple into a fortress, claiming anointing from God, it's all there. Plus mass suicide. At one point in Acts 23, a Roman officer thought Paul was the leader of one of the desert groups and was Egyptian. (The Idumeans, Egyptians and the zealots were going to collaborate to burst Roman control). All that was the opposite of the Christian mission, which could in theory have saved the land.

What is future in Mt 24 is v29+ (the final judgement day), although it was supposed to be 'right after'--unless God delayed like the '4 options of Mk 13', the 'only Father knows' and 2 Peter 3 say and support. God did. There are no Judaic/Judean specifics about the judgement day in most passages like Rom 2, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Peter 3. The Thess passages are thought of as very soon, and include some Judean specifics, with the awful person of Dan 8 in the temple. The expression 'abomination that desolates' actually starts as 'rebellion that desolates' in 8:14.

Any thinking NT reader must see that there is a delay (it is the reason why 2 Peter 3 was written), with so many passages expecting the 2nd coming right after the destruction of the country.

Wait, I thought the passage was futurist; how did the historical figure Herod get in there, hmmm?

 

[Major]

The Matt 24:15 segment is 1st century Judea. There were actually 3 leaders who considered themselves God's chosen leader--notwithstanding the fact that they fought with each over it! John of Gischala, Simon ben-Giora and Eleazar. John dominated.

The line from Daniel 9 means when you see them (above) in the temple (using it as a defense fortress) you need to get out. Jesus had already warned that the insurrectionists (the 'leistes') were milking temple money for their cause, in the cleansing of the temple. The Christians did not leave quite soon enough, yet they were still given a window during the interruption of the siege, the senate strife, the 'year of the 4 emperors.'

The end of Daniel 9 is a very clear description of the turmoil of Israel's last generation; I happen to think the end of the last week stretches to be a generation; 'the end will come like a flood' meaning an elongated event.

Please notice that anti-Christ just means to be against Christ and the Jewish zealots were as he described: forming ranks in the desert, turning the temple into a fortress, claiming anointing from God, it's all there. Plus mass suicide. At one point in Acts 23, a Roman officer thought Paul was the leader of one of the desert groups and was Egyptian. (The Idumeans, Egyptians and the zealots were going to collaborate to burst Roman control). All that was the opposite of the Christian mission, which could in theory have saved the land.

What is future in Mt 24 is v29+ (the final judgement day), although it was supposed to be 'right after'--unless God delayed like the '4 options of Mk 13', the 'only Father knows' and 2 Peter 3 say and support. God did. There are no Judaic/Judean specifics about the judgement day in most passages like Rom 2, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Peter 3. The Thess passages are thought of as very soon, and include some Judean specifics, with the awful person of Dan 8 in the temple. The expression 'abomination that desolates' actually starts as 'rebellion that desolates' in 8:14.

Any thinking NT reader must see that there is a delay (it is the reason why 2 Peter 3 was written), with so many passages expecting the 2nd coming right after the destruction of the country.

Wait, I thought the passage was futurist; how did the historical figure Herod get in there, hmmm?

I see. I do not agree with you. I am not sure many will either. But your thinking is your choice.

With all due respect to you, please know that you are not the 1st to bring up Preterist theology.....IF that is what you are doing.
I asked you that question but you did not answer so I am presumming.

We can go back and forth till Jesus comes on this, but the Preterist position is not valid and can not be defended.

You see, Preterism works backwards from Eschatology to Theology proper, (Pneumatology, Christology, Hamartiology, and Anthropology,) which forces each theology to be constrained.

According to According to preterists…
The Tribulation
The Antichrist
The Abomination of Desolation
Jesus’ Coming (Matthew 24; Revelation 19)

…are all things of the past.

Many preterists believe that these things were fulfilled in the turmoil and political upheaval that ensued when Jerusalem was sacked by Rome and most of its inhabitants were slaughtered in A.D. 70. That seems to be what YOU are saying as well.

Now, preterism is actually very similar to an unbiblical teaching that was making its rounds in the early church.

Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:17-18…
“…Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection [a future event] has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.”

Back in the first century, Paul tells us, there were two men, Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were confusing people in the church because they were talking about a future event as though it already happened. We might call these two men the first preterists.

 

[Major]

I'm a historian and a translator. To prepare to write 'Luke-Acts and the Jewish Revolt', I translated a year in Josephus JEWISH WAR, and of course Luke-Acts, which is only a little easier. The biological/physiologically necessary reading of Lk 23 about the nursing babies calling (as adults) for the mountains to fall on them (Rev 7) is clear enough about when these things apply.

Sorry but "Size" is not in view and is not applicable" is neither a literal or rational thing to say. Stars have a literal size, and you think the text is more literal than I do. There simply is not one star anywhere that can get close to the earth without consuming it. The ancient Greek astronomer knew that there was gobs of space between planets and stars; he did not think there was a 'dome' over earth. They knew this much scientifically.

To be a true student, you should not be asking about system alliances; you should be asking what a text actually means as originally written, if we can find out, and why they would write it. John just wants believers to be resilient enough to know that when they are dying and its unfair, they have the ultimate victory over the bad guys. Do not invest emotions on anything more precise than that, it is folly. The past 200 years of futurism is folly and irrational. Modern Israel came about partly by atheist terrorists who wanted to set up socialist communities for kids, phase out families for collectives, and as Begin said, become the master race of the world. It is a bit revenge-driven, I think. It also echoes certain things in recent Europe. Not found in the apostles.

The secular 19th century novelist Elliot George (Jane Evans) was brilliant but inexplicably jumped in with the return-migration Jews interest in their homeland because of OT promises and prophets. They got a huge boost from her. She had no other religious spark in her, and that is my point. The Jews she depicted, and she herself, had utterly no fluency in what the apostles actually said, of Acts 2, 3, 13, 26, Gal 3-4, Rom 3-4, 2 Peter 3, Hebrews (!) nothing. There is not a trace of the Spirit of God in her and them in this return thinking. 2500 uses of the OT by the NT? Don't know a thing. But return to their land? That answers everything. It is Spirit-less and totally "literal."

The time is at hand, means it was about to take place. There's no need to work to make it current.

Good to know, thanks.

I on the other hand am just an old country boy who reads the Bible and accepts it as it is, written to me as I am.

I agree on the Star. Size is not the issue and that is what I said. You are saying that a star would obliterate everything. It probably would if it was the size of Mt. Everest. ALl I said was that the Bible speaks of LIGHT as a star and it can be any size.

You said..........
"To be a true student, you should not be asking about system alliances; you should be asking what a text actually means as originally written"

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but to me, that is real, real close to a personal insult! I am sure you did not mean it that way, however....!

 

[Decoder]

I see. I do not agree with you. I am not sure many will either. But your thinking is your choice.

With all due respect to you, please know that you are not the 1st to bring up Preterist theology.....IF that is what you are doing.
I asked you that question but you did not answer so I am presumming.

We can go back and forth till Jesus comes on this, but the Preterist position is not valid and can not be defended.

You see, Preterism works backwards from Eschatology to Theology proper, (Pneumatology, Christology, Hamartiology, and Anthropology,) which forces each theology to be constrained.

According to According to preterists…
The Tribulation
The Antichrist
The Abomination of Desolation
Jesus’ Coming (Matthew 24; Revelation 19)

…are all things of the past.

Many preterists believe that these things were fulfilled in the turmoil and political upheaval that ensued when Jerusalem was sacked by Rome and most of its inhabitants were slaughtered in A.D. 70. That seems to be what YOU are saying as well.

Now, preterism is actually very similar to an unbiblical teaching that was making its rounds in the early church.

Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:17-18…
“…Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection [a future event] has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.”

Back in the first century, Paul tells us, there were two men, Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were confusing people in the church because they were talking about a future event as though it already happened. We might call these two men the first preterists.

Don't use any labels. Your labels will be full of preconceptions, and will block you from seeing what is actually in a text.

For beginners, my view has a complicated contingency which I never hear in any commentaries: that Matt 24:1-28 is 1st century Judean, but at v29, the whole worldwide judgement was meant to take place--unless God delayed. The NT is absolutely loaded with the expectation that the world would end very soon; this is unmistakable in the Thessalonian documents, which are the earliest.
I do not know of one "preterist" author who elaborates that there was a delay, so they end up sounding very stupid with things like 'the destruction of the temple was the 2nd coming.'

We must all realize that the "clock ticked" as the apostles when through the 4th to 7th decades of the 1st century, 30--70. Marana Tha! "Lord come soon!" That was often heard as a Christian greeting. Paul even said that 'all the wrath prescribed on Israel has come at last' in 1 Thess 2 well before the events, and this matches Lk 21 'all the wrath that is written (in the prophets) will come on this generation' which is also transcription of Paul. He said these things, thought these things, in the early decades. In I Cor 7, he told people not to marry because of the griefs of the times and that it would be over soon.

There were already rumors of zealots using the Temple as a fortress, and the Romans beat them to it, by counter-building the Antonio on an overlooking shoulder, named for Mark Anthony. The zealots absolutely believed God would intervene in a supernatural battle to liberate the compound.

But the delay is also acknowledged in the 4 possible return times of the Master in Mk 13's parable (why put it in Mk 13?), in 'only the Father knows' of Matt 24 (why doesn't the Son know, who just declared all these details?) and of course, it is the very topic of 2 Peter 3: 'where is the promise of his coming?' The delay is mentioned there! What do 'preterists' do here? They say the melting of the elements is the end of Judaism, because of the term 'stoichiea'!

Do you understand that I am a universe from that?

Do not use labels like preterist. It will totally block your learning.

You are right, there were guys saying the resurrection had already occurred. They did not seem to mean what Jesus said in Jn 10: I am the resurrection, he who believes on me has transferred from death to life. Nuance is everything; labels are worthless.

 

[Major]

Don't use any labels. Your labels will be full of preconceptions, and will block you from seeing what is actually in a text.

For beginners, my view has a complicated contingency which I never hear in any commentaries: that Matt 24:1-28 is 1st century Judean, but at v29, the whole worldwide judgement was meant to take place--unless God delayed. The NT is absolutely loaded with the expectation that the world would end very soon; this is unmistakable in the Thessalonian documents, which are the earliest.
I do not know of one "preterist" author who elaborates that there was a delay, so they end up sounding very stupid with things like 'the destruction of the temple was the 2nd coming.'

We must all realize that the "clock ticked" as the apostles when through the 4th to 7th decades of the 1st century, 30--70. Marana Tha! "Lord come soon!" That was often heard as a Christian greeting. Paul even said that 'all the wrath prescribed on Israel has come at last' in 1 Thess 2 well before the events, and this matches Lk 21 'all the wrath that is written (in the prophets) will come on this generation' which is also transcription of Paul. He said these things, thought these things, in the early decades. In I Cor 7, he told people not to marry because of the griefs of the times and that it would be over soon.

There were already rumors of zealots using the Temple as a fortress, and the Romans beat them to it, by counter-building the Antonio on an overlooking shoulder, named for Mark Anthony. The zealots absolutely believed God would intervene in a supernatural battle to liberate the compound.

But the delay is also acknowledged in the 4 possible return times of the Master in Mk 13's parable (why put it in Mk 13?), in 'only the Father knows' of Matt 24 (why doesn't the Son know, who just declared all these details?) and of course, it is the very topic of 2 Peter 3: 'where is the promise of his coming?' The delay is mentioned there! What do 'preterists' do here? They say the melting of the elements is the end of Judaism, because of the term 'stoichiea'!

Do you understand that I am a universe from that?

Do not use labels like preterist. It will totally block your learning.

You are right, there were guys saying the resurrection had already occurred. They did not seem to mean what Jesus said in Jn 10: I am the resurrection, he who believes on me has transferred from death to life. Nuance is everything; labels are worthless.

The name (Label) comes from what you said.

Your theology is from the Preterist position which is all prophecy has already taken place.

I for one do not agree and do not accept your point of view. I respect it but do not agree with it for many reasons.

 

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Staff Memo - All participants in the final few posts in this thread MAY have forgotten about the "Topics Which May Not Be Discussed at CFS".

This is a reminder to RE-READ those topics, especially # 4 on the list. That topic has created angry exchanges in this forum in the past and that is not acceptable.

ALL MEMBERS are required to read and understand our Rules and the Topics list which may not be discussed.

We trust that everyone will go over the Rules and Topics list again as a remedial training. This thread is now closed for staff review.

Thank you.

FORUM RULES

Topics Which May Not Be Discussed



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