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Religious Freedom Vs. Personal Health

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by RiverJordan, Dec 3, 2013.

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  1. Pregnant Woman Suffers. You Won't Believe Who's to Blame.

    So what trumps what here? Does the Catholic Hospital's religious freedom trump the personal health of individuals? Is it moral to withhold vital medical information from a patient? At the very least, should the hospital inform the patient that she should seek other medical advice because they feel no obligation to provide her with the facts of her situation? If the woman had gone home and died or had something serious happen, is that medical negligence?

    I'm having a hard time understanding how a religious institution can consider this an act of morality.
  2. This was not a "morality" issue, it was a "stupidity" issue.
    Anyone with half a medical degree would know that the child was not going to be viable and the woman's
    life was in jeopardy. I would consider it medical negligence.
    If they had the facilities available to support a VERY early premie, then they should have induced labor,
    birthed the child and done whatever was prudent for the mother.
  3. Who is to blame? What type of issue is this, a World issue or a believer issue?

    We are thankful for Doctors but they never should over ride what the Holy Spirit tells us. I have never Known God not to be faithful and give us wisdom when we need it. That has never happened when someone seeks it.

    What did the Holy Spirit tell Tamesha? Does Tashema even know the Lord?

    Man is never the issue, Flesh and blood is never the issue. That is not our fight. The issue is the forces behind the flesh and blood doctors.

    My hope is that people are open and honest with us so we can make informed decisions, but even the most informed decisions are not the best. The Wisdom of God trumps everything, and God's wisdom works to the good on our behalf and never fails.

    I have made some dumb decisions based on great information. The issue is that in my small thinking I had more than enough information to make a right choice. I have learned that in all things take time (Yes it will take your time) to stop and get before the Lord and ask Him about it also. It has taken lots of things to go wrong to get this idea through my head, but I have learned that with God it all works out. There is no such thing as it being someone's fault when we have a great Father who is waiting to give us His wisdom for all things.

    So I ask the question......... Who's fault is this really?

  4. These subjects are extremely tough, and sometimes the Catholic hospitals make errors--they're certainly not infallible. Nonetheless, the hospital does hold a position not to abort if that was the other option, nor would they provide that as an option. Catholics hospitals DO however perform surgeries on cases like ectopic pregnancies. The fetus usually dies in this procedure, but the goal is to save as much life as possible. However, if the other argument is to abort, it becomes a surgery with a direct purpose of killing the fetus. Both procedures share the same result, but only one is intended to kill while the other is intended to save.

    It's possible that the hospital committed malpractice if the pregnancy seemed to hold problems that would also mean a likelihood of the mother losing her life, and they may have also committed this error by sending her home -- I don't know what the full story is behind it. However, if the case is refusing to abort, then I think they acted prudently there. Though that doesn't mean they acted prudently in every aspect of the case. I'm not sure about that.

    The right thing to do would be to take care of this poor girl, save her, ideally save the child, but not push forward any deaths of any sort.
  5. From what I can tell, it looks like this is what you get when you have medical non-experts (Bishops) dictating what doctors can or can't do. At the very least, their decision to not even tell the woman what her situation was is indeed "stupid" and likely negligent.
  6. Michael,

    I don't think the patient's religion is relevant to the questions here. The fact is, the medical staff at this hospital knowingly withheld very important information from a patient, thereby potentially putting her life at risk. That's wrong, regardless of what faith the patient belongs to.
  7. Lysander,

    Do you agree that the hospital should have at least told the woman what her situation was?
  8. Absolutely. If they neglected to tell the patient her situation, then they made a big mistake. There is a such thing as patient rights and responsibilities as well.
  9. I appreciate that. I understand your view on this. People do things wrong to others all the time, and at times when people do their best to help, it still does not turn out the way expected.

    I did not mention the patience religion. I mentioned hearing the Wisdom of God on something. As a believer, I put Scripture first and judge everything by the Word.

    Jesus said without me, ye can do nothing...... that would be zero, you are subject to the World and it's way. Paul said this

    Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

    So, as a believer, how do we look at these unfortunate situations?

    Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    So I will ask the Question in a different way.

    Would the situation been different, had this women been able to get the Wisdom of God about her situation? If the answer is yes.

    Then I ask again who is at fault here?

    I am not looking at this carnal, but scripture minded as we should be. Without Jesus, it don't matter how good your doctor is, or how much you make. I had a very similar situation like this, but it was more on the lines that the Doctor was clueless and did every test they had to do.
  10. Lysander,

    It looks like we agree once again. (y)
  11. Michael,

    Are you a Christian Scientist?

    The reason I ask is you seem to be of a view that in every situation, we should look to scripture and seek the Wisdom of God. When my computer freezes, should I look to scripture? When deciding what to cook for dinner, should I seek the Wisdom of God?

    IMO, those would be ridiculous. God wants us to live our lives, doesn't He? If I found myself in the situation as the woman in the OP, I would go to the hospital. I certainly would pray the whole time, but I wouldn't expect God to be like, "Your baby is not going to survive. You need to go to a different hospital and get this situation taken care of immediately". IOW, I pray for strength to help me get through difficult situations, not for a medical diagnosis. That's what doctors are for.
  12. Col_3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    Eph_5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Well, I fixed dinner tonight and did not spend a couple hours seeking wisdom on what if anything I should fix. There has to be some type of scale though. I have sought wisdom from God concerning my computer if it just won't start. Most the time I just reboot and believe it will start, which is normally the case. There could be wisdom when to ask for wisdom I guess.

    I don't know what that is. I suppose I can Google it.

    Ah, something I can work with!!! I am having a hard time picturing you pregnant but I guess its a "Suppose" situation.

    The medical diagnosis was to terminate the pregnancy. Someone that can take dust and make a human being would not need to give that bleak of an outlook.

    I won't tell you what I would do, I'll tell you want I did.

    My son had like 4 different bacterial infections. He had just come off Chemo and they were stumped as to why he had these infections. 3 of them were deadly and they ran test after test to find out the source and could not. Bacteria means it had come in from somewhere.

    At 106 degree temp and having a very hard time bringing it down putting my son in ice and on super antibiotics they could do nothing else. My wife was told my son would not make it because they can't find how or where this bacteria come in or the source.
    You hear stories all the time of people dying of bacteria infections, I guess its not to uncommon.

    The wife calls me and tells me what is going on. She told me I need to hear God and get some help.

    Pro_4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
    Pro_4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

    God's wisdom has to come first before asking or standing in faith. Without wisdom from God, we don't even know what to believe a lot of times based on the natural circumstance. Wisdom told Joshua to march around a city so that the walls fall down. Wisdom told Naaman to wash in a dirty river 7 times to get healed. I would never think of that on my own.

    I need God's Wisdom: My sons pick line for chemo
    So, I told the Lord before I pray or do anything, I was going to get wisdom and started to just pray in tongues. I kept praying until the Lord spoke to me. He said, "You tell the wife to have them remove your sons pick line immediately. Your son will be fine."

    I called the wife back and told her to have them remove my sons pick line. His pick line was something they tested with 3 different types of test to just make sure that was not the cause of the Bacteria infection. When she asked them they told her no, that the pick line was not the issue. Knowing I do hear God, she told them much more strongly that she wanted the pick line out now or she would pull it out herself.

    So they called someone in and they took out all the line. The line went to the lab for testing and sure enough, what the missed 3 times showed up clearly once out of my sons body.

    My son had to stay 1 1/2 weeks still until released, he was that sick but got better and better once they found the source of the bacteria.

    I am convinced that God has wisdom for even the smallest of situations and His Wisdom is not hard to get as it's written that He gives wisdom to every man and never holds back. (James 1:5)

    With such a awesome promise as that, then if my son had died, it would have been my fault. Not the doctors, but mine.
    RosaVera and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  13. FerrisComputerFace.jpg
  14. Spot on Michael!

    Acts 17:28 For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.

    Believing scripture first in everything simply means we take the problem to God first. If there is no 'amazing' miracle, we trust His hand on whatever comes next.

    Conclusion: Ignoring brain, doctors and science is dumb. Ignoring God is even dumber.
  15. The heart of this problem is legalism. A rule, though well intended, was placed above a person. When confronted with the results of obeying that rule and ignoring the needs of the person, the doctors then blamed the rule that they used to exonerate themselves from making an actual tough decision. It is the civilian equivalent of "I was just following orders". From the article, it appears that the doctors were acting with utter indifference and a severe lack of compassion. They certainly could have followed the rule, but still helped the patient in some way. However, I feel there is more to the story than what we are reading here. It's simply too heartless. It's very one sided. Nothing about the writing here inspires me to trust the author. The argument made is completely one sided and emotionally driven. That's great for blogging, but it's bad journalism. While I'm not a fan of the RCC, in this case, I think they are a bit of a scapegoat in an attempt to show the evils of anti-abortion groups.
    RosaVera likes this.
  16. I agree with Banarenth that there may be more to the story than we're getting. It could be possible that there was negligence, but perhaps not. I'm only suggesting we hear both sides to get a better understanding.
  17. Michael,

    I'm glad to hear about what happened with your son.

    And I also agree with Banarenth.
  18. River Jordan, i will say this with no malice, but you do seem to have a problem with the RCC... i wonder what the Bishops who are the leaders of the Catholic church, and are also the leaders of all other churches as it is written in the Bible and Paul speaks of them, what is their fault in all this...? Do you not think that as leaders of the church they have a responsibility to make sure that no life is killed especially one that is defenseless ...? Are Bishops just Catholic leaders...?
  19. If I may provide some insight as a Catholic (not speaking on RiverJordan's behalf of course). While it is the Catholic position to have bishops to take leadership roles of each diocese, and this means also making tough decisions, they are of course making poor decisions. They have in the past and acknowledge it themselves. Perhaps RiverJordan is expressing her thoughts that this may be one of those times where they have concluded to a bad policy and should rethink it.

    I'm not quite in agreement. I don't know the details of this case, I don't know if the hospital acted outside of the USCCB's policy (or assumed something in regards to it perhaps). They're certainly right to not abort by any means. But it's possible that there is a policy in place that might need reviewing.

    Just a thought.
  20. No, I don't have a problem or issues with the RCC. I really don't have much experience at all with it. I came across this story and thought it was an example of religious dogma trumping common sense and compassion for our fellow humans. That it was related to the RCC was irrelevant.

    I could understand if they told the woman what her situation was but then said that because of their beliefs/directives, they might not be able to fully help her. But instead, they deliberately withheld information from her and told her to just go home, putting her health at great risk. That's inexcusable.
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