I use to drive cabs and would often drive the elderly to Church. A pity if the Church isn't looking after it's own to at least give them a lift.I remember one lady always took a taxi to church. Taxis are super expensive here, you'd only use one if you had no other options. maybe she got a good deal for her Sunday drive I don't know.
Under shepherd would mean under the great shepherd the word rapture is not found in the Bible either yet we preach it and teach it. sunday schol is not in the Bible yet we have it. the attack is coming on gradually .Division is spread through out the Body of Christ
Jesus had 'sunday school' when he read scripture out loud in the synagogue, which is a place of learning. They had things called yeshivas in Israel for boys to learn Torah, though I think they did that everyday, not just Sunday.
Also recall Jesus was actually teaching and astonishing everyone at just 12 years old.
Here there is no real place you can go everyday to learn the Bible for free...most bible colleges you have to pay tuition fee (very expensive) except maybe online but you need a computer first. And many christian schools are private so you still have to pay big fees to attend them.
Bibles in (public) schools is only half an hour or so once a week. Not everyday.
The best place nowadays to go would be the public library, there is no charge to go in there and read..and you can use the computers for free.
Most people in church just organise a home group so that people can learn with others the only cost would be getting there and back but you have to be mindful of that for people living far away - transport. In a big city where I live parking costs a lot of money, as does petrol, and public transport can be so unreliable! If churches had a van or something it would help or they car pooled.
I've know some would travel all the way across town, even 2 hours to get to their favourite church even though there might be one right next door. But they are priveliged enough to have a car. A lot of people don't.
I'd always take people living in my street or on the way or didn't have a car but in all the time only one couple ever offered a car pool to me.I use to drive cabs and would often drive the elderly to Church. A pity if the Church isn't looking after it's own to at least give them a lift.
That reminds of a few times we visited a Lutheran and/or Reformed Church, we were immediately accosted with the question, "What is your name?" Immediately followed up with...'but what is your last name?' ...I suppose they were hoping to hear something like Goehring or Van der Kamp...speaking of 'religion'.The couple of times I walked to some other nearby churches, people there interogated me where I was from, as if I didn't even belong to the area.
then was does the pastor do ? preach to ice cubes ? i realize this will be a disagreement in Ezekiel chapter 3 and 33 we read of the watchman and his duties and if he fails his duties to watch over fails to sound the alarm there blood is on his hands. we compare the watchman to the pastor office .he is watch over his flock and keep them safe. much like what shepherd does. the pastor also feeds the flock so symbolically speaking the pastor is under the great shepherd. which causes him to be a under shepherdHmm. My KJV doesn't have "under shepherd" anywhere throughout
i dont practice that especially if said movement goes against the Bible . i dont do religion i do relationshipsEcumenicalism
That reminds of a few times we visited a Lutheran and/or Reformed Church, we were immediately accosted with the question, "What is your name?" Immediately followed up with...'but what is your last name?' ...I suppose they were hoping to hear something like Goehring or Van der Kamp...speaking of 'religion'.
then was does the pastor do ? preach to ice cubes ? i realize this will be a disagreement in Ezekiel chapter 3 and 33 we read of the watchman and his duties and if he fails his duties to watch over fails to sound the alarm there blood is on his hands. we compare the watchman to the pastor office .he is watch over his flock and keep them safe. much like what shepherd does. the pastor also feeds the flock so symbolically speaking the pastor is under the great shepherd. which causes him to be a under shepherd
i dont practice that especially if said movement goes against the Bible . i dont do religion i do relationships
i dont know what type bad experience you had with Church. but i will assure you i can take you to many churches that function in the Body of Christ . yes i have heard all the debates/arguments on how or what a church should do . i think the biggest problem we have is every one want to be a leader . God designed the office of the pastor were not like warlords . we tend and lead the flock as a watchman . the first Church gathering was at Antioch. i guess we could go back to the days of going house to house. then when the crowd leaves the home owner cleans the mess .Generally speaking, the prime fallacy I was addressing is the assumption that the Bible anywhere offers an actual job description assigned to "pastor." It doesn't exist without people assuming that the letters to Timothy and the churches throughout Asia Minor were written to "pastors." I say that in direct contrast to the modern "pastor," which is a purely contrived creature by comparison. Dare we read scripture for what it says and what it DOES NOT say, we begin to see the glaring creativity applied to the modern job of "pastor" that's far more roman catholic in origin than the Bible.
That's not to say that the modern "pastor" is anti-biblical. No. Institutionalism has every right to freely form and build whatever leadership structure in functionality the people in those groups so desire. No problem there. The problem enters in when some folks begin claiming their structure as being biblically mandated.
Just wanted to make sure that was understood.
MM
i dont know what type bad experience you had with Church. but i will assure you i can take you to many churches that function in the Body of Christ . yes i have heard all the debates/arguments on how or what a church should do . i think the biggest problem we have is every one want to be a leader . God designed the office of the pastor were not like warlords . we tend and lead the flock as a watchman . the first Church gathering was at Antioch. i guess we could go back to the days of going house to house. then when the crowd leaves the home owner cleans the mess .
i am bowing out of this it seems in all forums posters would rather reply to things that really dont matter .
once again i feel you fail to understand every pastor IS NOT elevated above the people. a pastor is a servant. how many mega church pastors do you find mowing the lawn .cleaning the church helping others out where they can. try driving a big truck from 3 am till noon or later. take of go visit folks in the hospital. have church on sunday night leave out early hours of the morning. once again iam sorry you have a sorry taste in your mouth towards pastors . you need come to my are walk with the bi vocational ministers/pastors . .I also challenge the idea that the FUNCTION of pastoring is an 'office,' as if it were elevated above the other people around them,
once again i feel you fail to understand every pastor IS NOT elevated above the people. a pastor is a servant. how many mega church pastors do you find mowing the lawn .cleaning the church helping others out where they can. try driving a big truck from 3 am till noon or later. take of go visit folks in the hospital. have church on sunday night leave out early hours of the morning. once again iam sorry you have a sorry taste in your mouth towards pastors . you need come to my are walk with the bi vocational ministers/pastors . .
in my 25 years of ministry i have yet to see the above. no sir i will not agree with you. besides the church runs the Church by vote, the pastor leads if a church allows it self to be ruled by Iron fist then they are not the Body. a God called pastor is not greedy nor a bully .they are a servant .bahh i done broke my vow all the above is called religion the church i pastor my wife and i clean most of the time by the cleaning supplies.
your not giving true pastors the credit they deserve . am i passionate about the pastor office? yes i am i have sat under some fine pastor who lead by example before i took this church , i had storm come threw blew a limb down in my front driveway. i took a picture sent a text to the pastor of the church we attended. next thing i know he is out front with his chain saw , i told him i was going take care of it. he ignored me cut it up.
i could give many examples of pastors who did jobs for people not got one penny. nor would they you have a good night i dont mean to sound or get down on you. just i have always stood by the pastor seen folks get mad at them for nothing . a pastor taking care of the church is honorable . provided they are humble
once again i feel you fail to understand every pastor IS NOT elevated above the people. a pastor is a servant. how many mega church pastors do you find mowing the lawn .cleaning the church helping others out where they can. try driving a big truck from 3 am till noon or later. take of go visit folks in the hospital. have church on sunday night leave out early hours of the morning. once again iam sorry you have a sorry taste in your mouth towards pastors . you need come to my are walk with the bi vocational ministers/pastors . . in my 25 years of ministry i have yet to see the above. no sir i will not agree with you. besides the church runs the Church by vote, the pastor leads if a church allows it self to be ruled by Iron fist then they are not the Body. a God called pastor is not greedy nor a bully .they are a servant .bahh i done broke my vow all the above is called religion the church i pastor my wife and i clean most of the time by the cleaning supplies. your not giving true pastors the credit they deserve . am i passionate about the pastor office? yes i am i have sat under some fine pastor who lead by example before i took this church , i had storm come threw blew a limb down in my front driveway. i took a picture sent a text to the pastor of the church we attended. next thing i know he is out front with his chain saw , i told him i was going take care of it. he ignored me cut it up. i could give many examples of pastors who did jobs for people not got one penny. nor would they you have a good night i dont mean to sound or get down on you. just i have always stood by the pastor seen folks get mad at them for nothing . a pastor taking care of the church is honorable . provided they are humble
I agree with you, f61. However, in the minds of most people, the 'pastor' is elevated above others in the body regardless of what you or I think. I was simply pointing out to you that calling the pastorate an "office" is a practice in distinctives, and in the minds of most, that's an elevation above others in the body. Additionally, like I had said before, a group of people has every right to hire a dude to go around doing all those things you described, and when he experiences burnout from it all, which happens VERY often on account of all that's expected of that poor man, the group then pays for his burnout retreat that people like James Dobson said is well deserved. Personally, I'd never let myself be hired to have such an enormous demand placed upon me individually. One must turn completely up-side down his life's priorities to make it work at the extent you described. My priorities are:
1 - God 2 - Family 3 - job 4 - church.
Flipping that is simply an unacceptable practice in relation to my personal life. For those who do flip it, hey, they get what they agree to step into with both feet mired in the muck of it all. 1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. I'm not saying that all the workaholic 'pastors' do this, but what I've heard described on programs like Dobson's in what some 'pastors' allow themselves to be put through, I've often wondered how many of them ran amuck under the condemnation of that verse. No problem from me with you standing by the 'pastor.' I stand by them, the elders, the bishops, et al. I stand mostly by the discipled. THEY are the reason leaders within the (C)hurch exist. The leaders within the institutional model do what they do, but the leaders outside the organized system also do extremely valuable and worthy work, contrary to the thinking of the average institutionalist who assumes that the institutional model is the sum total of what Christianity is all about. That far cry is, unfortunately, the harsh reality that stands much larger than any elephant in the room.
MM
i agree even in the hundreds .get bigger than that you need full time associate pastor help . all though the office of the Deacon is supposed be the pastor right hand should be able to teachI think a group of 12-70 is a manageable herd.