PvE - Why 7 Trumpets?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by mistmann, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. (It is a long post but I do not apologise for it because you can't fit big matters into small posts. This thread is not for the "spiritual grazer" but those who are getting stuck into the meat and veggies of their faith. :) )

    Thought the "Bible Study" forum was more appropriate for the Prophecy Versus Expectation threads given the way they have gone.

    It took me a long time to understand the significance of the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Probably because the key to their significance actually appears to lay in Numbers 10:1-2.

    Numbers 10:1-2 "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps."

    These silver trumpets by various soundings signalled many things for the Israelites whose camps covered a vast area. But significantly, apart from the call to assembly and the call to battle they also signalled the call to break camp and move out. To follow the Lord's Angel to the NEW place He was taking them to.

    However the really interesting thing is that the Israelite nation were to always move out in SEVEN specific groupings in a specific order. Therefore the LEAVING of the Lord's People was likely marked by seven distinctive trumpet blasts in succession indicating which group were to start their journey and when. After you had heard the seven trumpet blasts you would know that the Holy People of the Lord have LEFT that place for a NEW Place elsewhere.

    We discover these seven distinctive groups in Numbers 2, 4 and 10. Briefly they are:-

    1st Rank: Judah, Issachar, Zebulun. (Eastern Camp)
    2nd Rank: Reuben, Simeon, Gad (Southern Camp)

    Levites Group 1: Kohathites (Sanctuary equipment and Ark of The Covenant)
    Levites Group 2: Gershon (Tabernacle curtains, hangings, cords, etc.)
    Levites Group 3: Merari (Tabernacle boards, bars, poles, frames, metal fittings, etc.)

    3rd Rank: Ephraim, Mannaseh, Benjamin (Western Camp)
    4th Rank: Dan, Asher, Naphtali (Northern Camp)

    What we see in Revelation appears to be a call to look out for the seven trumpet blasts that signal the DEPARTURE of the Lord's people from the EARTH. We will not hear them with our ears but we will see them with our eyes. For Revelation tells us that each sounding of the trumpet in Heaven will be accompanied by certain events that will happen upon the Earth. That as we see these things occurring around us we will know which trumpet has sounded in Heaven and so spur us on not only to prepare ourselves but also to greater urgency in our commission to help Jesus save as many as possible from the coming destruction.

    The same thing applies to the opening of the seven seals. We will know when they have been opened by the real world events that accompany them. Now there is some uncertainty as to whether the seven seals and the seven trumpets occur simultaneously or in succession but when we look at the events of history and of today it would seem BOTH, at least, have begun for we see in history and today some of the things that accompany the opening of the seals and the sounding of the trumpets. But this we DO know, we are HERE till the seventh trumpet sounds. We know this because 1 Cor 15:52 says:-

    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This tells us that the "rapture" (which occurs at the coming of Christ) does not happen until the sounding of the LAST trumpet which is the seventh trumpet.

    These things that accompany the successive seals and the trumpet soundings are things we are able to see and witness with our own eyes and ears for they are real world events. John does not EXPLAIN what they are, he merely DESCRIBES what he sees and hears. However while John could only describe them by the words and concepts available in his day we should not let that prevent us from understanding that what John is describing is a real event even if we might describe it differently today or when we see it come to pass.

    What I am putting forward here is what I see and what the Bible says (ie is written), but everybody must make up their own minds about these things. For instance when I see history I see in the early 300's AD the first ever Christian emperor riding out on a white horse conquering in the name and sign of Christ and actually having the name of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords emblazoned on his vesture and thigh and on those of his entire army (Constantine the Great founder of the 1,000 Byzantine Christian Empire). I see peace has for centuries been taken from the Earth and men forever killing men. I see the rise and rise of rampant commercialism and merchants, taking over the world and reducing everything to a dollar (penny?) value, carefully weighed out and measured.

    I have seen the same divinely inflicted plague that befell the Philistines when they took the Ark of the Covenant also wipe out at least ONE FOURTH of the population of Europe but which actually extended throughout the whole of the known world. (You will note that the plague that befell the Philistines involved both rapidly growing tumours and rats. These tumours are now called Buboes and the plague, the "Bubonic Plague", known to be carried by the fleas of the black rat). I have also seen that many still die of disease, pestilence, famine, violence, etc.

    I have not yet seen a mountain sized asteroid strike in the ocean or the wide scale toxic "Red Tide" algae bloom likely to follow it, killing much marine life in the process. BUT I am expecting it. I have not seen a super volcanic eruption that would rain down a hail of rock, ash and RED hot lava and burn up large areas of grassland and forests. That would induce a world wide "nuclear winter" darkening the sun and moon and turning them blood red. BUT I am expecting it. Indeed science does NOW know of several dormant super volcanoes capable of doing this and are currently closely monitoring the one at Yellowstone National Park, in America.

    The point is JESUS took the effort to ensure we were made aware of the things that were going to happen AFTER 96AD (when Revelation was written). He did not do this so that we could just ignore it because it is too "controversial" or "too hard" but because it is INVALUABLE foreknowledge that will help us to understand the times and the things happening in the world about us and not be afraid or worried. To know for a CERTAINTY, that nothing is happening that the Lord does not already know about and taken care of. A map of the future by which we can be guided, encouraged, strengthened, and comforted. But it is also why Satan makes a similar effort to blind us to it, discourage us from it, and spread much false teaching about it.

    BUT it is a future that BEGAN IN 96AD, not tomorrow. Over 1,900 years of the times of Revelation have already PASSED into history. There is nothing in Revelation about a period of 2,000 years in which absolutely nothing at all happens. The "hereafter" John was shown in Revelation is the "hereafter" of 96AD, not the hereafter of today.

    Offered as things for people to think about, ask about and generally discuss in accordance with what is WRITTEN in the word of God. Many things are likely to be claimed or said that may or may not be in accordance with the written word of the Bible. People are urged to test for themselves ALL things from ALL persons against what is actually written in the Bible itself to see if they are actually true or not.
  2. 1 Corth 15:52 IS NOT the 7th trumpet of the Revelation .

    The trumpet of the church age is called the "trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The trumpet of Revelation is the trumpet of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15).
    The trumpet of the church age is singular. There is no mention of a series of trumpets. The trumpet of Revelation is the seventh of seven. The phrase, last trump, has a different significance.
    In 1 Thessalonians 4, the trumpets calls the dead to life. The seventh trumpet of Revelation occurs after a resurrection occurs (Revelation 11:12).
    The trumpet of the church age comes as a blessing. The trumpet of Revelation comes with judgment and is called the third woe (Revelation 11:14).
    The trump of the church age sounds in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). The seventh trumpet of Revelation sounds for "days" (Revelation 10:7).

    Simply put, there is no real connection between the "last trump" and the seventh trumpet. YES, there are those like my friend here, Misstman who try and force their opinion onto what the Scriptures teach.

    1 Corinthians and Revelation. 1 Corinthians is generally dated around 59AD and Revelation is commonly dated about 96AD. That means that the writing of these two books was separated by about 37 years. The seventh trumpet was not in the context of what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15 or in 1 Thessalonians 4. It had not yet been revealed. However, the "last trump" must have had some sort of significance to the Christians to whom Paul spoke.

    I agree that Numbers 10 is the key to understanding this as it was the way the tribes of Jews were called to move. The last trump indicated that the entire congregation was now on the move. That is the picture that Paul is using in 1 Corinthians 15:52; not a revelation that would not be given for almost 40 years. Just as the last trumpet call in the wilderness meant that the entire congregation was on the move, so the last trump at the time of the rapture will indicate that the entire church of the redeemed is called up: both the living and the dead
    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16The last trump indicated that the entire congregation was now on the move. That is the picture that Paul is using in 1 Corinthians 15:52; not a revelation that would not be given for almost 40 years. Just as the last trumpet call in the wilderness meant that the entire congregation was on the move, so the last trump at the time of the rapture will indicate that the entire church of the redeemed is called up: both the living and the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).).

    Now, to say .............."
    "This tells us that the "rapture" (which occurs at the coming of Christ) does not happen until the sounding of the LAST trumpet which is the seventh trumpet" is simply false, Biblically speaking of course.

    The 7th Rrump judgment is NOT EVEN ARMAGEDDON AT ALL my dear friends. Read the Revelation for yourselves and do not rely on me oe the OP for that matter.

    When you do you will see that God has placed into the Revelation 3 sets of judgments:
    They are......

    1) The SEAL Judgments.
    2) The TRUMPET (Trump) Judgments.
    3) The BOWL Judments.

    Here is the consecutive judgments as they are found in the Scripture.......

    1st...........Seal (Antichrist)......................................Rev. 6
    2nd .......Seal (War)................................................Rev. 6
    3rd..........Seal (Famine)...........................................Rev 6
    4th .........Seal (Death of 1/4 population)................Rev. 6
    5th..........Seal ( Martyrdom) ...................................Rev. 6
    6th..........Seal ( Heaven/earthly disturbances......... Rev. 8
    7th seal is actually all of the Trumpet Judgments.

    1 st Trump ( 1/3 of Earth smitten).....................Rev. 8
    2nd Trump (1/3 of the Sea smitten)....................Rev. 8
    3rd Trump (1/3 of Fresh water smitten)............Rev. 8
    4th Trump (1/3 of Sun, Moon, Stars).................Rev. 8
    5th Trump ( Locusts torment for 5 months)......Rev. 8
    6th Trump (200 Mil men slay 1/3 of men).........Rev. 8

    1st Bowl (Sores).............................................Rev. 16
    2nd Bowl (All of Sea effected)...........................Rev. 16
    3rd Bowl (All Fresh water effected).................Rev.16
    4th Bowl (Sun burns men)...............................Rev. 16
    5th Bowl (Darkness).........................................Rev. 16
    6th Bowl (Euphrates River dried up).............. Rev. 16
    7th Bowl (Great earthquake/ Babylon destroyed)..........................Rev. 16-18

    ARMAGEDDON Rev. 19.

    As can be clearly seen, the 7th Trump IS NOT ARMAGEDDON at all, therefore it can not contain the Rapture.

    One judgment follows another and they become progressively worse ending at the END OF THE AGE at Armageddon.
  3. In what chapter and verse does the WORD OF GOD declare that the "trump of God" is the trumpet of the "Church Age"? Indeed where in the Bible does it ever use the term "Church Age". This concept of the "Church Age" is merely a theological concept from a certain school of thought, it is not from the Bible at all. Where in Revelation does it declare an EIGHTH trumpet sounding either before or after the seven? Do not all seven trumpets belong to God? Can they not all rightly be called the trump(et) of God? But we know from 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the reference is to the trumpet that sounds - LAST, and does not Revelation tell us that is the seventh trumpet of God?

    (For those who may not be aware the words "trump" and "trumpet" are translations of the SAME Greek word and both mean exactly the same thing. The "trump" and "trumpet" thing is just something odd that some English translators did.)

    THE last trump is also a singular reference. THE seventh trumpet is also a singular reference. This is very much a NON-argument you are making. The phrase "last trump" means the LAST trump to sound, the very LAST trump to sound. Revelation clearly declares the last trump to sound is the seventh trumpet of God. You cannot call it the last trump if there are going to be other trumpets after it, that would not be telling the truth and the word of God ALWAYS speaks that which is true.

    Revelation 11:12 is speaking of the TWO SPECIAL witnesses who are prophets of God. Hardly a mass resurrection remarkable and miraculous as it will be. Not one of your better arguments. Clearly they are something far beyond us and not part of the rapture of ALL believers.

    The woe is for those remaining, not those who are raptured. Unless you think being raptured is a woe and not a blessing. The seventh trumpet IS a blessing for those who are raptured at its sounding. It is only a woe for those who remain to face what comes after it on the Earth.

    I can't believe you are making this argument (no I mean it, I REALLY can't). 1 Cor 15:52 does NOT say the trumpet shall only sound for the twinkling of an eye. It says that those who are alive shall be CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye WHEN the last trumpet sounds and that the dead shall also be raised incorruptable. You need to understand the proper syntax of what the sentence actually says and says very clearly.

    Sorry Major but simply put your arguments have just been demonstrated to be not in accordance with the written word. But people can judge for themselves what we have each said and read for themselves what the Bible actually says and decide for themselves what they will believe. I for one encourage them to do it.

    Paul declared these things would happen at the last trump. What does Revelation say is the last trumpet to sound?? Is it not the SAME Jesus who guided BOTH Paul and John to write that which is TRUE? What is the passing of time to the one who is Lord OVER time. Paul declares it will be at the last trump and John declares the last trump will be the seventh. Which one would you have us NOT believe??

    When reading Revelation we must always keep in mind that it is not in strict chronoloigical order but a mixture of chronological and topical orders. At times giving a chronological overview of events, at other times pulling out, or even revisiting, specific events from that overview and expanding on them in greater detail. With Revelation you cannot rely on the order of chapter and verse to reflect the chronological order of events, it requires much more careful analysis than that.

    But having said that Major have you not previously argued that those who are in Christ escape the wrath of God upon the Earth? And are not the bowls/vials the wrath of God upon those who are left? And are these not poured out only AFTER the seventh trumpet sounds?
  4. Wow, you mean we disagree again. Who would have thunk it!

    Good day to you.
  5. Mistmann, I have to completely agree with Major here.

    Revelation 11:15 (NIV) The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

    Even though Major refers to Pauls trumpet as' the congregation is on the move', he is still not wrong, as this is excatly what the 7th trumpet does along with signalling the end of the tribulation period and time for the second coming.

    How do you get that that is the rapture from that scripture? We the saints are not 'dead' physically or spiritually when we get raptured.

    I dont understand what you mean here or why you even saying that. It should be obvious that Seals and trumpets follow the order of 1 to 7.
    The seventh seal is the 7 trumpets, the seventh seal is opened during the tribulation.
  6. Agreed!

    When carefully studying the Revelation it can be clearly seen that there is indeed a chronological order.

    That is true because God is the Lord of logic and order NOT chaos and disorder.

    The Lord has a plan and He has been working that plan now for a long long time and IMO we are at the very end of that plan waiting on the church to be fulfilled.

    Since several people have problems with the TIMEING of the Rapture, allow me to go into some detail of the TIME........................

    1 Corinthians 3:9-15

    King James Version (KJV)

    9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
    10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    Paul uses 2 Greek words in referring to judgment. In 1 Cort. 6:4 he says..."If ye then have judments of things pertaining to this life" using the word "KRITERION" which means a judgment associated with condemnation.

    However in 2 Cort. 5:10 and Roman 14:10 speaking of the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (Bema Seat) he uses the Greek work "BEMA" which means a "raised platform or REWARD SEAT".

    History confirms that there was a RAISED platform in the arena where Greek athletic games were held and the umpire/JUDGE stood on that platform to reward the athelets. This is Pauls meaning when he speaks of the "Judgment seat of Christ".

    BEMA therefore suggests dignity, honor, authority and reward, NOT CONDEMNATION. Believers are not condeamned as told to us in Romans 8:1.
    "There is therefore now no condemanation to them which are in Christ Jesus".

    I know you are saying about right now........what has this got to do with the context of the thread. STAY WITH ME FOR A MOMENT LONGER.

    The events described in the passage from 1 Corth. 3 tell us that they will take place immediatly after the Rapture/CATCHING AWAY of the church. That is clearly set forth in several Scriptures for those who want to see.

    Luke 14:14

    And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

    Since the resurrection of believers takes place at the Rapture, it must follow that REWARD is part of the PLAN of God and it is linked to the resurrection.

    1 Corinthians 4:5
    5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    2 Timothy 4:8

    8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Revelation 22:12

    12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    Thus we see that the rewarding of the saints MUST take place between the Rapture and the Revelation, for Christ will first come for His saints, and THE CHURCH will be CAUGHT UP before the Tribulation begins.

    Then at the END of the Tribulation period when the reign of the A/C has run its course according to God's plan, HE WILL THEN COME WITH HIS SAINTS AT ARMEGEDDON.
  7. Are you aware that Paul declares that at the coming of Christ the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible (changed) first and that then those who are still alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and meet Him in the air? ALL the saints who have lived before us are currently physically dead, or as Jesus calls the mere death of flesh and blood, "sleeping". If you are aware of this well known passage your question does not make sense. If you are not aware of this passage it would be very surprising as you appear to claim a certain level of knowledge that should include knowledge of this passage.

    I am speaking of being careful about assuming the order that Revelation is written in is a strict chronological order. It is about understanding ALL of Revelation, not the order of the seals and trumpets.

    I have experienced many who argue that because something is MENTIONED before or after something else in Revelation it means it occurs before or after that something else. It is simply a warning about listing things in Revelation in order of chapter and verse and assuming it means it is in chronological order. It is a trap many fall into and we should be careful we do not.

    Perhaps a couple of examples will demonstrate what I mean.

    Example 1. In Revelation 14:8 we find an angel declaring that Babylon IS fallen. BUT LATER in Rev 17 we find a FULL description of the fall of Babylon including the lead up to its fall. AND then again at the beginning of chapter 18 we again find Revelation speaking of the angel of verse 14:8 crying out that Babylon is fallen.

    Example 2: The battle at Armageddon is first mentioned in Revelation in Rev 16:16. But It is again mentioned in Rev 20:8-9 as occurring AFTER the 1,000 years which is mentioned only in Rev 20:1-7. (I have had JW's on my door step telling me they are taught that there are two battles at Armageddon, one before the 1,000 years and one after purely because it is MENTIONED in Revelation both before and after the reference to the 1,000 years.)

    As I said before we have to be careful because Revelation is written in a mixture of Chronological order AND topical order that is not chronological but subject based.
  8. Hi Major,

    Do you realize your theory has a major fundamental and fatal flaw in it? The Tribulation the Bible speaks of is tribulation *OF* the saints. If, as you say, the saints are raptured before the tribulation OF the saints then no tribulation of the saints occurs to be raptured before.

    In short:-

    Pre-tribulation rapture = NO Tribulation.

    Trouble is the Bible declares there WILL be great tribulation OF the saints.
  9. Mistman,
    You honestly need to begin to learn Basic Christianity in order to grow. Major and KingJ are not wrong. Iḿ left with a question after our conversations, ¨How old are you? (Spiritual Birth)
  10. No my friend, you are mistaken.

    First of all .....It is not MY theory at all. What I have shared here is from the teaching of some of Christianites formost accept scholars...not my own! What I have posted is the classical "pre-milinial" view of a future coming of Christ, 1st at the Rapture and then 7 years later physically at Armageddon.

    Then second.....there will be many people who come to Christ during the Tribulation which of course will be SAINTS.

    The correct interpretation is that the many saved during the Tribulation will be saints just as much as we who are saved today.

    Rev. 14.........
    "These are they which were not defiled with women for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whereever He goes. These were redeammed from AMONG men being the 1st fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    We know these are not the first born again people on the earth from Adam. So then these must be the first saved "out of" Israel...Jews during the Tribulation.....

    Rev. 7:14

    Rev. 15:2

    Therefore, the tribulation OF THE SAINTS that you are speaking of, comes AFTER the Rapture when the gospel goes out to the Jews and those who have not heard the gospel. They will receive Christ and will go through the Tribulation.
  11. Now there are many who advocate that 70 AD is the date where the phrotic Word of God took place. They place Titus the Roman led his army in destroying Jerusalem, the temple and a million Jews. They actually teach that was the second coming of Christ. However I would point out that NONE of the things which are prophesied to take place when Jesus returns to the earth occured at the time of the Roman invasion and destruction. We can go around and round over this but the reality is that there WAS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD REPORTED OR LISTED OR CONFIRMED.

    NO LIVING SAINTS were translated in any way whatsoever and none is recored in history of that date in time.

    There was no physical changes prophesied to occur at Jerusalem and Palistine at the return of our Lord. (Read Zech. 14:1-11 and Exk. 47:1-2).

    When Jesus comes again the Bible tells us that He will RESTORE it not destroy it.

    John the Revalator wrote the Revelation 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and in that book there is a lot concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as still future,and about the city itself.
  12. I don't normally tell people how long I have been in Christ and being taught daily by the word of God and the counsel of the Holy Spirit because I do not rely on MY credentials for the authority of the things I say but on the written word of the Lord. ALL wisdom, knowledge, and understanding comes by the word and grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the efforts of any man. Ask yourself why is it that after intensly studying and learning the scriptures daily a great many years the Pharisees and Sadducces STILL could not understand what the Scriptures were telling them. And yet after a mere 3 year "crash course" the "ignorant and unlearned" Apostles knew and understood far more than they did what the Scriptures were saying? How it is that on the same day they received the indwelling Holy Spirit they were able to stand up and speak of the things of God with GREATER authority and power than ANY of the long time Religious leaders of Israel?

    Understand Bill that a person who bases the authority of their word on how long and how hard they have been studying the Bible and not on what the Bible actually declares to be true then all their study and effort is in vain because they still have not understood that the Bible teaches us that authority comes ONLY by the word of god, and understanding ONLY by the power of the Holy Spirit not by the opinion and efforts of man no matter how learned they believe themselves to be.

    From the first day you open a Bible to the day you die the authoritative words in it do not change one iota. The authority of the word of God does not come from US, it comes from the Lord Himself whether you are a greatly respected elder or a fresh faced newbie in Christ the authority of the word of God remains the same. And if we learn anything from Pentacost and Christ's promises of the Holy Spirit and what He is able to do for us then we will understand that the wisdom and understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit is not dependent on how long He has been indwelling us but on how much we actually LISTEN to Him and ALLOW Him to change our ways of thinking (renew our minds).

    But my time in Christ is no big secret and I am happy to answer if anybody asks as you have. I have been in Christ and daily studying the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit for nigh on 40 years now. In that time I have also investigated many of the theologies that abound in the Christian community. However as soon as it becomes plainly obvious they do not accord with the word of God I do not waste too much time on them except to demonstrate to others how they can judge for themselves that they do not accord with the teachings of the Bible. I'd rather spend more time and effort learning more about what is true than what is plainly not true.
  13. You need to understand the first rule of ministry Major which is - If YOU preach it YOU own it. If we preach that which is false then WE become teachers of that which is false. In other words we become false teachers. The Lord will not absolve you from the resonsibility of ensuring that what you teach is actually in accordance with what HE has declared,

    Rest assured Major if YOU are teaching it, in the eyes of the Lord it is YOUR teaching.
    But regardless of where you got the teaching from it does not change the fact that the teaching itself is not in accordance with Biblical teaching. The Bible does not teach some future 7 year period of "tribulation", it just does not. That is the product of a theology that twists and tortures the words of the Bible to try and make it say something it simply does not say. As one famous theologian or evangelist once said, if you torture the Bible hard enough and long enough you can make it admit to anything you want.

    There is little point revisiting the many errors I have already demonstrated to you but keep your eye on the next post.
  14. I cannot believe you are trying to pull this trick yet again, creating the false illusion of an argument I have never made. Are you simply trying to manufacture an argument you CAN win because you have no answer to the one I am actually making? Or are you simply trying to discredit me by deceptively pretending I am making an argument that I have never made? I really have no idea why you keep doing this but you would be wise not to do it again because when you unleash it on somebody who properly understands and pays heed to Dan 12:7 you will find it turns around and bites your own Butt as I am about to let it do again and will do every time you try this trick.

    In Daniel 12:7 we find Daniel, the Angels, and ultimately the Lord Himself EMPHATICALLY and CLEARLY declaring that the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 come to an END when the scattering of the power of the Holy People is accomplished - NOT the second coming of Christ which we know from many places in the Bible comes well after this. The Prophecies of Daniel 9-12 include the FIRST coming of Christ but have NOTHING to do with the second coming of Christ.

    We know WITHOUT DOUBT from Dan 12:7 that the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 ENDED in 74AD with the fall and destruction of the LAST city, stronghold, and high place of Israel, MASADA, and the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen Nations in accordance with the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46. We also know from Dan 12:7 WITHOUT A DOUBT that the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 have nothing whatsoever to do with the SECOND coming of Christ, only with the first coming of Christ.

    The existence of Daniel 12:7 alone is sufficient to blow the ENTIRE "70th Week" theology well and truly out of the water because Daniel Himself declares His prophecies END with the scattering of Israel among the nations NOT the second coming of Christ. Why the adherents of the "70th Week" theologies choose to totally ignore the advice of Daniel Himself and erroneously try and apply the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to the second coming of Christ is beyond me. A simple check of what the prophecy of Daniel itself actually says is sufficient to see the obvious fundamental and fatal error their theology has made. A further check of official world history which shows that all of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 did indeed ALL come to pass on and before 74AD exactly as prophesied, will close the case entirely.

    But it is up to you whether you pay heed to these unassailable FACTS of reality or choose to ignore them. I can only draw your, and everybody elses', attention to them. Thank you for the opportunity and reason to do so again. Whether or not you see the obvious error I am sure others viewing this thread may take note of it, check it out for themselves, and make use of it.
  15. Now now, no need to get personal. I definately don't know it all and am no theologian.

    I enterpret 1 Thess 4:17 as all the 'tribulation saints' and not as us Christians who live now.

    1 Thess 4:16 says Jesus will come from heaven with a 'shout' whereas 1 Thess 5:2 says He will come as a thief in the night.
    How can you confuse these two events?

    I like to use logic and ''Christian common sense'';
    I see the trumpets as 'God's wrath' on the earth. I also see the plagues Moses brought upon the Egyptians as 'God's wrath' on the earth.
    Now the jews that had blood on their doors were protected from God's wrath. Likewise it just does NOT make sense to me that God
    would send His wrath to ''His'' children whom are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. Jesus endured' God's wrath' that was enroute to us.
    Bad things happening today to Gods faithful like the tsunami and tornadoes are not 'God's wrath'

    So to say that we will endure the tribulaton of 'God's wrath' and us 'victorious Christians' will be at the mercy of the anti-christ, is laughable.

    If the anti-christ tells me to accept his mark, I will tell him to get on his knees and kiss my feet (greater is He that is in me then he that is in the world).

    I would have liked to see the discussion between you and the JW's :)
    Major likes this.
  16. Rest assured nothing "personal" was intended, I was genuinely puzzled as to why you would ask the question you did for the reasons mentioned.

    1 Thess 4:17 simply refers to whoever is alive and in Christ at the time of His coming. If we are still alive when He comes it will be us. If we pass before His coming we will be among the dead in Christ who are raised first.

    As to coming with a shout versus coming as a thief in the night the saying does not mean He is going to sneak in quietly but that He will come unexpectedly and without forewarning. The intended meaning of "as a thief in the night" is made clear in Matt 24:-

    Matt 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Even though He comes with a shout and all the world will know of it, He will come at a time the world is not expecting it in the same way a thief in the night does not tell the owner of the house when He is coming but will come when the owner least expects it.

    As to the wrath of God be careful not to confuse the wrath of God with the Tribulation of the saints. We must also be careful not to assume that just because WE think the Lord will not do this or that, that He will not do this or that. The Lord will do as HE wills and according to what HE has declared. You cannot say the Lord will not allow His people to suffer tribulation because the Lord has already declared that they will:-

    Joh 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

    Note also how John introduces himself in Revelation, written circa 96AD when the church was suffering great and cruel persecution by the pagan Roman Empire:-

    Re 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    The Bible does not speak of a specific period of seven years of specific tribulation, that is an artificial construct of those theologies that err greatly in trying to apply the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to the second coming of Christ. The prophecies of Daniel 9-12 do not extend to the second coming of Christ, they FINISH at the scattering of Israel among the heathen nations. A process that history tells us was finally accomplished in 74AD with the fall of the last Jewish city and stronghold of MASADA.
  17. I studied the 'end times' a while back and am rusty with my verses! But was fully convinced at the time, of my beliefs in a pre-trib rapture. I did misinterpret 1 Thess 4:16 & 17, with all the trumpet talk :confused:. I have to conclude that imo it is talking about the rapture and the fact that Paul says trumpet will sound is just co-incidental with John talking about the 7 trumpets. It makes sense that when Jesus raptures the saints, the dead in Christ, join to meet in heaven.
    Yeah, I agree, thief in the night not good comparison :rolleyes: especially when 1 Thess 4:16 is talking about rapture in the first place...lol, what I was thinking though, was more how the shout will not be heard by the unsaved, just the believers (Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28).

    The 7 trumpets are the wrath of God on the earth, tribulation for the saints spoken of above is completely different. The church of Christ is persecuted for being the church of Christ, persecuted for His names sake and now you are implying that the same church (Christs bride) will endure the wrath of God in the form of 7 trumpets. I do not see God doing that at all. God delivers His people from His wrath everytime (Egyptian plagues, Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah).

    Even those who miss the rapture but reject the mark of the beast and die for it, will thereby escape the 7 trumpets.

    Don't you see the 7 trumpets as God's wrath on the earth? I dont see how they can be confused with persecution they are such extreme events, that if they happened nobody would doubt it or wonder what it was.
  18. Well......the idea of getting along peacefully sure did not last long!

    Here is my EXACT quote..............
    Now there are many who advocate that 70 AD is the date where the phrotic Word of God took place. They place Titus the Roman led his army in destroying Jerusalem, the temple and a million Jews. They actually teach that was the second coming of Christ. However I would point out that NONE of the things which are prophesied to take place when Jesus returns to the earth occured at the time of the Roman invasion and destruction. We can go around and round over this but the reality is that there WAS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD REPORTED OR LISTED OR CONFIRMED.

    No where in that statement is a referance to YOU in any way whatsoever. MANY is a fact that can not be denied and it has nothing to do with you.

    Now from that comes your comment.........................
    "I cannot believe you are trying to pull this trick yet again, creating the false illusion of an argument I have never made. Are you simply trying to manufacture an argument you CAN win because you have no answer to the one I am actually making? Or are you simply trying to discredit me by deceptively pretending I am making an argument that I have never made? I really have no idea why you keep doing this but you would be wise not to do it again because when you unleash it on somebody who properly understands and pays heed to Dan 12:7 you will find it turns around and bites your own Butt as I am about to let it do again and will do every time you try this trick."

    That as usual is totally out of line for a believer to make to another believer and is very much out of line.

    I in fact do agree you. IT is up to those who are wanting to know to read and understand the Biblical facts given to us.

    Now as for Daniel 12:7.......I am thankful to you bringing that up as it gives me the opportunity to speak to it...

    "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

    "a time, times, and a half".= 3 1/2 years and actually refers to the last half of the 7 year Tribulation period, when all the prophecies will be fulfilled.

    "when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people" = is the second answer to the question of the time involved.

    The literal Hebrew of "breaking in pieces the power" is SHATTERING THE HAND.....the hand being the emblem of active power. The correct understanding then of the original is of the outpouring of the curse on the desolated, holy people, Israel's lowest humiliation being the precourser of her exaltation.

    The THEY of the text refers to the Antichrist and his powers.

    Jesus said of the day of the Lord, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,” Matt. 24:29. Concerning what effect these things will have upon the inhabitants of the earth Luke 21:26 says, “Men’s heart’s failing them for fear, and for looking after the things coming upon the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”

    Revelation describes in graphic terms the same fear upon the inhabitants of the earth that Luke 21:26 describes, “And, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Rev. 6:12-17.

    We have already commented on the great earthquake, no such thing happened in AD 70. Neither did these tremendous cosmic calamities! They comprise the same event, the day of the Lord. People were not running in fear to the rocks and mountains, and having heart attacks because of seeing these things in AD 70 (Luke 21:26). But, yet, the Past-tribs are going to tell us with a straight face that all THIS happened in AD 70! The great earthquake did not – neither the cosmic calamities in conjunction with it.

    So how do the Past-tribs get around all this? Or, presume to get around all this? No problem, they say it is figurative - along with the second coming, the first resurrection, the millennial, and the entire book of Revelation. They insist that these celestial events did not occur actually in AD 70, but are metaphors, poetic language.
  19. First of all, no errors have been stated or pointed out. You have given your opinion but that does not make it a Biblical fact in any way.


    I teach it, I believe it and I am glad to be able to do it and THANK YOU FOR ACCEPTING THAT WONDER FACT!

    Daniel’s 70th week rests on the battleground between radically different sides. On one side you will find the futurists, and on the other the historicists. If you believe this seven year period is yet in the future you are a futurist, and if you believe it is in the past you are an historicist. The view of a great body of scripture is different between these two groups. If the battle is won here first the war will be over.

    Furthermore, if you believe in a future seven year tribulation you cannot consistently be anything but a pre-millennialist. Now we can claim all sorts of things that we are or are not but those who don’t believe in a future seven year period usually fall in some post or a-millennial camp. Unless they find a makeshift resting place in a more or less rare position, usually only an excursion on the way to post-millennialism, called by its proponents historic pre-millennialism.

    Now that is simply just the way it is.

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Dan 9:25).

    Verse 25 clearly declares when the Messiah was to come. He came right on time. Notice this verse covers the first 69 of Daniel’s 70 weeks. It is undisputed, with the exception of liberals, that these weeks are to be interpreted as weeks of years. This simply means that from the date of the going forth of the commandment to the Messiah was 483 years. It is interesting to read the intensity with which historicists struggle about this time period’s termination point. If the 483 years ends at the birth of Christ and not His baptism their position against a period of time between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks is destroyed. These arguments, however, are simply smoke and mirrors. No matter when the 483rd year came, verse 26 establishes that there is a period of time between the 69th and 70th weeks.

    "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Dan. 9:26).

    Note the word "after." Whatever takes place in verse 26 is after the 69th week. What happens after the 69the week? The Messiah is cut off. This is the atoning death of Jesus Christ. Note it is not the last event mentioned in verse 26! If the death of Christ was the complete fulfillment of verse 24, as many historicists claim, then why didn’t the chapter end here. Why is another event mentioned in this verse and the 70th week not mentioned until the nest verse?

    Post-millennialists are so fond of pointing out that the event mentioned after the crucifixion is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Do they place this event in the 70th week where they inevitably place the first event of this verse? Definitely not. They place it in 70 A.D. far from where they position the 70th week. They accuse dispensational pre-millennialist of an exegetical crime when we declare there is a period of centuries between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks, while they declare that one part of this verse is in Daniel’s 70th week and the other part is not. This is indeed exegetical inconsistency on their part, especially when the 70th week has yet to be introduced. I’ll tell you where I place both events of verse 26: after the 69th week and before the 70th week. This is right where these events are placed in the logical order of the verses.

    The age of the Gentiles began when Israel crucified their Messiah. That’s why the resurrections is not mentioned in verse 26. The age of the Gentiles began! Israel refected the resurrected Messiah, and Jerusalem and the temple (the city and the sanctuary) were destroyed in 70 A.D. by Titus. Israel is still in the same evil unbelief they were then. They are in the same rebellion that precipitated the destruction of the city and the sanctuary!

    The gap between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks has to extend to at least 70 A.D. because this is the period of time between the 483rd year of verse 25 and the last event of verse 26! We know this period of time is much longer than this because the temple that was destroyed by Titus’ men has yet to be rebuilt, and the 70th week requires a temple. Furthermore, Titus did not confirm the covenant or sit in the temple and declare himself to be God. This event has yet to happen.

    "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:2-4). Josephus says Titus was running around trying to get his men to stop destroying the temple. He was not declaring himself to be God.

    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Dan. 9:27). Daniel’s 70th week is not mentioned until after the events of verse 26. These verses and events are clearly in chronological order. The events of verse 26 are "after" the events of verse 25. The events of verse 27 follow the events of verse 26. The time period that dispensational pre-millennialists believe to be between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel is not only justified by rules of Biblical interpretation, but it is required by those rules!

    The contents of verse 27 require a restoration of Israel’s relationship with God which has not taken place since the events of verse 26. Since this restoration has not yet taken place, the temple has not been rebuilt, and the events of verse 24 are not yet completed, we must believe that Daniel’s 70th week is yet in the future. Since this prophecy deals specifically with Israel as a nation, and Romans 11 speaks of a future restoration of Israel we are left no choice but to believe that the future restoration of Israel will occur in the 7 year period of God’s prophecy in Daniel verse 27. Here is the Biblical evidence for a future period of 7 years when God shall save Israel.

    The tribulation aspect of this seven year period is not difficult to establish once the foundation of the future fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week is established. Although it is not difficult it would take more time to establish this truth than I now have remaining. Daniel chapter 11, 12 then the Olivet Discourse, and the Revelation all tie together with this 70th week to give us a clear view of what will take place during this short period of time. These verses also establish that the literal return of Jesus Christ to the earth is immediately after Daniel’s 70th week.

    God bless you Misty for the opportunity to get out the Word of God and I do not apologize for the length of this post because I feel as though it was needed for the context of the posting.
  20. YES!

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