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PvE - A Test of Faith

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by mistmann, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. Don't worry, this is not about anybody else testing your faith, it is about you testing your own faith in the privacy of your own mind.

    One of the most destructive problems I see about me in the Christian community today is LACK OF BELIEF, FAITH, and TRUST in the word of our God. We all say we believe the word of God, but do we REALLY believe EVERYTHING the Lord tells us? Do we really think that if the Lord says it is true then I will believe without reservation that it IS true?

    It is easy to believe the believable. Even atheists will believe the believable. BUT to believe the UNbelievable, THAT takes true faith and trust. But before I start perhaps a quick demo.

    The number of people who have EVER seen the far side of the moon with their OWN eyes in the whole history of man is probably less than 15-20 astronauts. Everybody else only knows the far side of the moon from photos they BELIEVEand TRUST are actual shots of the far side. Except probably those who have so little faith in NASA that they don't even believe any man has been to the moon and its all been faked. But before anybody laughs at them too much you should remember that everybody else only believes we have by FAITH in the word of NASA. In short EITHER belief is a matter of faith.

    But getting back to the demo. Most people readily believe the photos of the the far side of the moon because they look pretty much like the near side of the moon that everybody CAN see with their own eyes. The photos are - believable. But what if somebody showed you a photo that had a big abandoned alien city in the middle of it and told you that THIS is what NASA actually found but are keeping secret? Would you still believe the PHOTO even though with the other photos all you had were the photos and NASA's WORD that they are genuine. Do you believe the photo THIS guy has or the photos NASA has? NASA's photos are believable, but this guy's photos are a whole lot less believable, even though you can only believe either one by faith alone.

    What you find in truth is that it takes a whole lot MORE faith to believe this guy's photos than it does NASA's photos. The believable is easy to believe. The unbelievable is not quite so easy to believe.

    But let's leave our faith in the word of NASA and turn our attention to our faith in the word of God. We are called by faith to believe the truth of the word of God. BUT that is the WHOLE word of God not just selected bits. To not believe ANY part of the word of God is to not believe the word of God. Unless we can say, "God said it, THEREFORE I believe it" for the WHOLE of the Bible, cover to cover, then we are not believing it BECAUSE God said it, but because WE find it believable. In other words our faith is not in the word of God but in our own ability to decide what is and what is not true. The problem is whilst much of the Bible is believable we try to ignore and not talk about, or we reinterprete the many, many things in it that are quite UNbelievable, in fact incredibly unbelievable. I think we avoid and ignore them in order not to be forced to test the limits of our faith lest it fail the test.

    BUT we need to understand that INTERPRETATION is what we do when we can't bring ourselves to BELIEVE or UNDERTAND what the Lord has actually said. The danger of it is, in CHANGING the word of God from something HE SAID into something WE are prepared to believe we also change it from something that is true into something that is not true. What the Lord said and what we believe are no longer the same thing.

    Another way we avoid testing the limits of our faith in what the Lord has declared is to convince ourselves that knowing or understanding it is not necessary for salvation and therefore knowing or understanding it is not important and so we avoid confronting the NEED to believe what the Lord has said. TWO problems arise from that.

    The first problem is that the Bible is not a book of God's idle chatter. What the Lord has caused to be painstakingly written down so ALL may know and carefully and meticulously preserved so that future generations may also know, He has done so for a REASON and a PURPOSE, not because it is unimportant and of no concern.

    The second problem which is actually greater than the first, if that were possible, is HOW are we going to KNOW it is unimportant to understand and believe what is written if we do not FIRST understand and believe what is written?

    Once you have the indwelling Holy Spirit understanding the word of God is not as difficult as some will try and make you believe. The Lord is not out to HIDE the truth from HIS people but to REVEAL it to them. He is a plain talker par excellent. He SAYS what He means - and He MEANS what He says. Discerning the literal from the metaphorical or allegorical is not difficult. When speaking literally the Prophets and Apostles use literal language, when they speak metaphorically and allegorically they use metaphorical and allegorical language. When they are speaking of dreams they will TELL you it is a dream. When they are speaking of a vison they will TELL you it is a vision. And when they are speaking of reality they will TELL you this and that HAPPENED.

    Remember the Lord speaks to EVERYBODY directly. He does not speak in a way that only the "learned and wise" among us can translate it for us. He chose the "unlearned" and the plain and simple as His Prophets and Apostles to speak in plain and uncomplicated language so that ALL may understand HIS word by the SPIRIT of understanding that comes from the Lord and Heaven and not the traditional interpretations and "religious" indoctrinations (like those of the Pharisees and Sadduccees) that come from men and the world. We need to fully appreciate the ways of the Lord are VASTLY different from the ways of man and THIS world. We must allow our minds to be renewed and our ways of thinking to be changed.by the Lord to the way HE sees and does things.

    The passage I am about to relate I came across just the other day in my daily readings of the Word. No doubt I have read it many times before but this time I looked very closely at what it was saying and suddenly understood just what it was saying and how UNbelievable it was. And then it occurred to me (or perhaps put in my mind) to share it here and ask do those here REALLY BELIEVE what the Lord is declaring to be true? Not that you have to say anything but ask yourselves in you own mind "just how far I am prepared to believe that what the Lord declares to be true IS in fact true no matter how unbelievable it is.

    They are the words of David, King of Israel, not some babbling idiot prone to hallucinations. The words of a responsible intelligent honest and discerning king of not only a great nation but the people of the Lord Himself. A Man after God's own heart. Words that declare these things HAPPENED (in reality) and were no dream or vision. THIS is what the word of the Lord declares - will you believe the unbelievable or will you attempt to reinterprete it or ignore it as "unimportant" to salvation. THAT is the test. Only you can decide in the privacy of your own mind but remembering it is also before the Lord who knows your every thought.

    But be careful - IF you believe the Lord at HIS word you may experience some renewing of your mind and a change in the ways of your thinking. Reality in the mirror of God may appear a whole lot differently than you imagined. :)

    The passage in question is 2 Samuel 22:7-20. Here David (being among other things a poet and songwriter) tells of the song he wrote for the Lord after the Lord miraculously saves David from certain death at the hands of his enemies' armies (Saul and others). It is David's account of HOW the Lord saved him. Because it is so important to understand I will repeat it. 2 Samuel 22:7-20 is Davids ACCOUNT of HOW the Lord saved Him from his enemies.

    It is worth checking a number of translations (I checked KJV, NIV, Darby's Literal, and the JPS). But paraphrased for ease of understanding, David's account of what HAPPENED goes something like this. Facing certain death he prayed to the Lord for deliverence from his enemies. Next thing the ground and the very air shook violently. There was smoke and consuming fire streaming out and he saw the Lord descending out of the sky. Under His feet was something dark. He then mounted a thing the Hebrews called a "cherub" (We are still uncertain exactly what a "cherub" is but we know from the OT that it can fly and be ridden on/in). Riding in/on the Cherub the Lord is visibly seen flying to and fro through the sky above accompanied by thunderously loud noise and dark, thick clouds and glowing fire and bright light. As He flies through the sky He is decimating David's enemies with "arrows" (basically anything that resembles an arrow and flies through the air, it does not have to be an actual arrow) and something that looks like lightning. No mention is made of a bow however.In the process large volumes of water are displaced from bodies of water and large chunks of land ripped open.

    While still airborne the Lord then reached down and plucked David up from where he was and took him elsewhere and deposited him in a large (presumably open) place of safety.

    This is what David declares happened AND it is written in the pages of the word of God. Sounds kinda like a modern day military airstrike and extraction doesn't it? But, of course, what would David and those of over 3,000 years ago know or possibly imagine of military airstrikes and flying machines, etc. ..... unless, of course, they were able to actually witness one. Remember this is the King David who also wrote all those Psalms like Psalm 22, Psalm 110, etc. Perhaps you might even try watching some jet fighters in action or the odd NASA rocket launch or two to get some idea of what it might have looked like in David's experience. The description of the two are not disimilar.

    Happy to discuss the matter but primarily it is about you asking God for the understanding and strength of faith that will allow you to believe, WITHOUT interpretation the incredible things HE has written no matter how unbelievable it may, AT FIRST, appear to OUR minds.

    BUT you might be surprised to find out that the things of the Bible are not as unbelievable as the world would like you to believe. Remember Satan wants to make EVERYTHING in the Bible unbelievable. If you want to find out just how believable David's account is and how different reality is from what we are being led to believe check out my 10 minute video "A Flood Of Evidence - Archeological" and then do your own investigation into how archeology is changing the face of the reality we THOUGHT we knew. The world may not want you to know the truth of the reality about you and fully trust in and believe the truth of EVERY WORD of the Word of the Lord - but the Lord does.

    A Flood Of Evidence - Archeological:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvpL37GGRQI

    Regsrds Misty.
  2. Why dont you tell us what you think? Problem is that you come out with all these statements and conclusions, yet never endorse them. When I have challenged you before with a number of issues on your videos, or with things you have said in your posts, you simply evade giving an answer by quoting more scripture and saying that you only quote what is in the Bible and that it is up to us to decide and not for you to do that.

    SO what do you think then Mistmann, do you really think David saw fighter planes dropping bombs? Yes or NO will be sufficient for an opening response.

    I have always said that many things in scriptures have been suppressed or given a new meaning in order to not come under attack from non believers, we see this today where many church leaders are saying they do not believe in the Virgin Birth, which is the fundamental core of who Christ is.

    I also believe in an advanced pre flood civilization which spanned the globe, but I stop as far as saying they managed to go beyond the equivalent of our industrial revolution, again you have not given an answer to questions I have asked you regarding these things, especially the claims there was a nuclear war somewhere in ancient history.

    At the end of the day it dosnt matter about evolution, Creation, prophecy, who said ,saw or did what , but the core of beleif and faith, which at the very centre is Christ,the son of God, who was given as a sacrifice , who died and rose after 3 days then ascended into heaven, all which was done for us so that we can have eternal life through Him.

    As for the title, Test of Faith, well people are having their faith in God tested every day in prison for simply being a Christian, now that's a test of faith, not if you believe that the Bible is describing fighter planes bombing
  3. Sorry, I thought it was quite obvious what I believe. I believe the written word of God AND those things that are required to be true if the word of God is to be true. It is easy to declare the Bible is the word of God, but there are a whole lot of unbelievable things you have to believe are true if you are going to believe the Bible speaks the TRUTH. This is the point of the thread, to get people thinking about the test of faith and trust that IS believing the word of God to be the truth and nothing but the truth. About contemplating ALL the other things you will also have to believe are true if you are REALLY going to believe the Bible is true. To have faith and trust in the word of God you MUST be prepared to believe the unbelievable.

    The reason you think I am being circumspect is because I do not make the same mistake as many do in the Christian community today. Frequently you will see people rattling off a whole series of emphatic declarations (freguently without biblical references of any sort) in such a matter of fact way that it is clear they just expect you to believe that what THEY are saying is true. In fact it frequently happens even here on CFS. The problem is they have no authority to make these declarations. When it comes to matters of the Bible and of God we have no authority to declare something to be true unless the Bible first clearly declares it to be true.

    We must be clear that there is NO SUBSTITUTE for the authority of the written word of God. Many will cite the authority of their church, or this or that theologian or theology, or this or that preacher or speaker, etc. but we must remember that it is all still just the words of mere men and not the words of Gods that they should have equal or ( as some would try and have it)) greater authority than the Lord Himself to declare truth. Even in Gal 1:8 we find Paul saying that even if the Apostles themselves should speak not in accordance with the authority of the word of God already preached we should not believe even THEM. Even in 1 John 1:9-10 It is the doctrine of Christ Himself (not the Apostles) that is the word of Truth.

    What you mistake as being circumspect is me taking great care not to speak contrary to, or to EXCEED the authority of, the written word of God. It is a sad fact that with so many no longer practicing such caution that comes from the proper fear (ie awesome respect) of the Lord, many do not even recognise it in those who do.

    In this case we know no more than what David has declared to be true. BUT in order for the words of King David to BE true it is necessary that he has witnessed the real physical EXISTENCE and use of vehicles and weaponry that MANKIND did not posess or have the knowledge or technology to construct at the time. What modern science and archeology have done is discover MUCH real physical evidence of technologically advanced vehicles and weaponry indeed being used upon the earth in ancient times. The discoveries of modern science and archeology are not in accordance with man's traditional version of history BUT they ARE in perfect accordance with the Lord's version of history.

    The test of faith and trust in the Lord is DO we believe the truth of EVERY word of God? Or are we simply seeking a way to avoid having to believe every word of God because we can't summon up enough faith and trust to believe that everything He has told us true? But understand that there are many people prepared to die for what THEY believe. But of what benefit is it to them if what they believe is not the truth? Do you not think that there will be those who will cry "Lord, Lord, did we not die for you, and He will say depart from Me, I never knew you." ?

    Look around you. In the world today you have those prepared to die for what they believe in and WHO they believe in. Not all of them will enter the kingdom. If I must be persecuted let it be for TOTAL faith and trust in Him and HIS every word. If I must be persecuted for speaking then let it be for speaking the truth. But HOW would I ever KNOW I am speaking the truth EXCEPT that it accord with EVERY word of God? For I have no authority or knowledge to declare what is true except by the knowledge and authority of the word of God.
  4. 2 Samuel 22 isn't literal. It's self-identified as a song, which does not carry any implication that it's literal. Indeed, it's full of blatant metaphors and other non-literal speech.

    Besides, you can't argue that it's literal and then claim the nostrils are jet engines and a charub is a military jetfighter (further, the nostrils aren't part of the charub). You argue, "We are still uncertain exactly what a "cherub" is but we know from the OT that it can fly and be ridden on/in."? "Cherub" is used nearly a 100 times in the Old Testament. That's enough to get a very good idea of what they are. Ezekiel describes them in detail. They are living creatures who serve God, usually appearing in symbolic passages. They are not airplanes.
  5. mistman, you replied in exactly the same way in which I mentioned in my first post. You can not interpret something that is logical in your mind then hide behind a statement saying " I believe the written word of God" AS Arius points out, you are simply interpreting scripture as military aircraft, I still notice you have not given a "yes i believe this is a plane", but you just simply continue to post lengthy statements. Anyone can post statements,I can give a lecture on evolution, but I do not believe it. SO come on, instead of replying with "Sorry, I thought it was quite obvious what I believe." why cant you just say what you believe , or do we still have to guess which gives you some leeway and area to manoeuvre or retract if challenged on something.
  6. Hi Arius,

    2 Samuel 22 is actually referring to Psalm 18 but do not make the mistake of thinking the Psalms are any less truthful because they are songs. Songs in OT times were used to record and remember important things and events as well as sometimes being prophecy (eg Psalm 22 & 110). Check out these references to understand that Songs speak the truth in the Bible no different to any other part. You would be foolish to dismiss the songs of the Bible as mere fiction.

    Exodus 15:1, Deut 31:21-22, Deut 31:30, Deut 32:44, Num 21:17, Rev 15:3

    As to the "it's only true if it is literal, and if it is not literal it is not true" argument it shows, at best, a poor understanding of language, at worst an attempt to mislead. In giving me the gift of writing and poetry the Lord has also given me a full appreciation of the richness and diversity of language, and in particular DESCRIPTIVE language. Descriptive language is not literal, it is - descriptive. BUT that does not mean that the things it describes are not real. David may not have been able to understand what he was seeing but that does not mean he could not describe it in terms of things he and his auduence could understand. Watch a video of a twin engined jet or rocket taking off and you will find the jets looking not unlike redhot nostrils breathing fire. BUT I do not know exactly what David saw, only that he was endeavouring to describe something he SAW and EXPERIENCED, something that was .... REAL.

    Descriptive language is not an endeavour to provide a technical explanation, especially if the observer does not know what it is they are looking at. It is an endeavour to recreate in the mind of the reader /listener the experience and observations of a witness in words and concepts the READER / LISTENER understands and can appreciate. David clearly experienced something outside of the normal life experiences of those he was addressing.

    Regarding Cherubs it must be remembered that we are speaking of a time when the only things that moved and flew by their own accord were living things. Non-living things simply sat there, they did not go wandering around the countryside or go off flying around the sky or moving by themselves. To the Israelites they probably did seem to be living things. It does not necesarily mean they actually were. But yes Ezekiel does describe them in detail. You forgot to mention the .... WHEELS! and the COALS OF FIRE they carried around between their WHEELS! Or the canopy (firmament) or the sapphire like thing that had the
    APPEARANCE of a throne that sat over them. (See Ezekiel 10) It is interesting that the thing on them only had the LIKENESS of a throne, meaning it LOOKED something like a big chair - but not like any throne Ezekiel knew of.

    But we know from passages like Isa 66:15, Jer 4:13, 2 Kings 6:17, Psalm 68:17, 2 Kings 2:11-12 that the Lord has fiery chariots that can fly. Indeed one of the translations of "cherub" is "1a4) as the chariot of Jehovah" (Strong's).

    I do not know exactly what David saw, but I do know how he DESCRIBED it. Just because he described it in terms, concepts, and objects that the Israelites would be familiar with in no way makes what he is DESCRIBING any less real.
  7. Yes and I told you why. But I did not interpret it as military aircraft, merely pointing out the SIMILARITY of David's description to the description of a modern airstrike. The descriptions ARE similar but I do not know what David actually saw, only the words he used to describe it from which we get HIS description of what happened. To claim that what David describes and declares as happened, somehow did not happen is to accuse King David (and the Bible) of not speaking the truth. I am merely pointing out that we are called to believe the truth of what the WHOLE word of God ACTUALLY SAYS and that includes the "unbelievable" bits.

    HOWEVER modern science and archeology are discovering the description David gives may not be as unbelievable as many think it to be for we DO HAVE ample actual physical and existant evidence of the existence and use of advanced technology and weaponry on the Earth in ancient times. BUT I didn't say it was MAN'S advanced technology and weaponry. The Bible is full of references to the technology and weaponry of the Lord and of the Angels.

    I BELIEVE THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD AND THE PROVEN FACTS OF REALITY. Sorry but I can't make it any plainer or simpler than that without going into baby language or something.

    But tell me on what basis other than simple disbelief do you NOT believe the account and description of David as HE has told it??
  8. Cheribim is the plural of the Hebrew....Cherub.

    You are correct in that there is more than ample Biblical evidence of their actions and appearance.

    Ezekiel 10:1-22

    1. Front like a man.
    2. Right side like a lion.
    3. Left side like an ox.
    4. Back like an eagle.

    Sound familiar????

    Rev. 4:6-8
    Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
    “ Holy, holy, holy,
    Lord God Almighty,
    Who was and is and is to come!”

    It appears that these four beings are the angels who represent the FOUR portraits of Christ on the earth that the gospel writers pictured.

    Matthew pictured Christ as a LION.
    Mark pictured Christ as a CALF/OX.
    Luke pictured Christ as a MAN.
    John pictured Christ as an EAGLE.

    2 Kings 19:15
    Then Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said: “O LORD God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Psalms 80:1
    Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel,
    You who lead Joseph like a flock;
    You who dwell between the cherubim, shine forth!

    Genesis 3:24
    So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
  9. Psalms 18 is the popular version of the song in 2 Sam. 22. It is the royal song of thanksgiving that rehearses God's deliverance of David from all of his enemies.

    Verses 7-19 ARE NOT some kind of picture of airplanes or anything else. IT is in fact the Lord's intervention and is called a "THEOPHANY" which is a visible manifestation of diety.

    A THEOPHANY has two parts:

    1). The Lord leaves His residence,
    2) and all of nature reacts.

    It is thus a highly poetic and vivid way of describing the fact that the God of Israel intervened in history on David's behalf.
  10. Hi Major.

    KING DAVID has described in some detail what HE saw, heard, experienced, and witnessed. Calling it a specific name does not change that. King David does declare that the Lord left His residence. BUT then he goes on to also declare that after that He mounted a Cherub (which we know from Ezekiel 10 also has WHEELS, something like coals of fire, a canopy, and something that has the likness of a throne in which the rider/pilot obviously can sit otherwise why have one.) He then visibly flies around the sky shooting something that looks like arrows, and lightening bolts and decimates the armies opposing David, and so on...

    Are you saying these things did NOT happen? That David is either fibbing or hallucinating? Or is somehow so befuddled that he is unable to tell reality from a figment of his imagination? I'd be interested in whether you believe the word of God that these things actually happened or not.

    Understand simply calling it a "Theophany" neither solves nor answers anything.
  11. Congratulations, you have proved me correct again, you are a deceiver, you push absurd theories and outlandish interpretation of scripture, but you fail to nail your colours to them, and then when challenged on them as to what you think and what your purpose is, you hide behind your comments such as
    which proves yet again that you are being deliberately evasive and yet again and trying to turn the tables.

    I also notice that you have now subtly changed your initial statements , doing exactly what I said you would, that is you have given yourself room to manoeuvre without compromise to your integrity, or so you think, all without committing yourself to a solid statement of belief or intent.

    What then is your point, If you do not want to admit you believe this yourself, yet you push these things on everyone else, when they are clearly flights of fancy in your mind, anyone can come out with stuff like you have. As Christians we all have learned or should have learned to read scriptures and interpret them correctly, your interpretations are miles off the mark, yet you do not admit this, but hide behind the same statements you trot out in just about every post.
  12. If you are going to accuse me of changing my story at least have the decency to actually point out where you think I have changed it so the matter can be properly addressed.

    Also if you are going to accuse me of being evasive you should, at least, practice what you preach and not evade and avoid the direct question at the bottom of my post.
  13. No one has questioned the truthfulness of anything that is non-literal in the Bible. However, you insist that clearly non-literal passages (e.g. a "song" full of metaphors) are literal, even while you refuse to treat them as literal (you claim living creatures with the features of humans, if not animals, are jet planes). If they're planes, why doesn't Ezekiel describe them as "metal" and primarily "bird-like"? And, what, other than your non-authoritative imagination, justifies your incredible assertion that anything that flew would be (ignorantly) called a "living creature" in the Bible?

    You've also revealed yourself to be a polytheist, that to me is proof that you're laboring to support the teachings of some cult.
    Major likes this.
  14. Your words were "Besides, you can't argue that it's literal and then claim the nostrils are jet engines and a charub is a military jetfighter"

    I was not arguing that his words were LITERAL, I was arguing that David is describing ACTUAL EVENTS. That what he is describing in DESCRIPTIVE language is real life events. It seems whenever I speak of truth those opposing me want to turn it around to literal versus non-literal. You don't always have to speak literally in order to speak the truth.
    Don't forget that these "living Creatures" ALSO have WHEELS, Canopies, some type of seating, carry coals of fire, can be ridden on/in, etc. Not exactly your normal type of living creature. EVERYBODY ELSE is talking abpout "jet planes", not me. I can only go by the description David gives. I am merely observing that his description of the whole scene is not dissimilar to a modern day airstrike. The question is do you believe that what DAVID DESCRIBES really happened? And THAT is the one question everybody here is desperately trying to avoid answering.

    As to being "polytheist" if you are referring to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being three seperate persons then you will have to call most of the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Himself "polytheist" because THEY all declare the same thing. You will also have to calle the Early churches of the Apostles "polytheist" also because THEY considered it heresy to declare The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to be the same person.

    Just because certain people here accuse me of the things THEY do, do not be mislead. Judge for yourself what the word of God does and does not say.
  15. So, when we read of things doing things, the nouns are not literal but the verbs are literal?

    Ezekiel's living creatures had the form of human beings. They did not have wheels. The wheels were beside the living creatures, not attached to the living creatures. They were not just fighters. Traditionally, they're considered to be angels.
  16. Beings with Wheels, must be Chorlton and the Wheelies ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UYMlV7kSZU
  17. Now you are getting close.
  18. In descriptive language BOTH nouns and verbs are descriptive of what it is that is trying to be described.

    As to the wheels they sound pretty well attached to me. Indeed Ezekiel even declares that the "spirit" of the Cherubim are in the wheels also (meaning they are a part of the Cherubim)

  19. If the wheels were part of the Cherubs, it would be unnecessary to say that the spirit of the Cherubs was in the wheels also. Also, planes don't have spirits to share with their wheels. (Certainly, "spirit" here is not a reference to a soul, but to a shared trait between the Cherubs and what the wheels represents, causing the two to move in unison.)

    I'm done with this discussion. Cherubs are human-like creatures with wings, but without wheels. Without a doubt. Claiming them to be jet planes is laughable.
  20. Did you ever hear the dead will rise in Christ. When we partake of the scriptures we are burried along with Jesus and when the word rises we rise with it. The scriptures are not given in a living image, they are written in dark grave sentences and they are not there for you to remain forever, people must come forth from them like Lazareth in the tomb. Paul speaks of the witness not as of man but of the spirit , lots of times.

    Moses said, I put before you life and death, to raise the snake is to raise his teachings to the spiritual level and it is like that too with the new testament. And this is the faith they speak of in the bible, believing what is not seen in the word.

    And people talk about Love, faith is the receiving of the truth and Love is the giving of it.

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