Predestination

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Jerry Shugart, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. When the word "predestination" is used in the Bible it speaks of the destiny of those who are already saved. In other words, when the word is used it is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved and others are not.

    For instance, Romans 8:29 is says that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son":

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29).

    It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21; NIV).

    In every verse which speaks of "predestination" and the destiny of man is in view the reference is always to the fact that those who are already saved will be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus.
     
  2. Jerry, I am beginning to understand what was meant about your theology.

    Predestination is always about believers Jerry!!! It is never about the un-believer my friend!

    All born again, blood washed believers, redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus will become conformed to the image of the Son of God.

    While it is true that believers will receive a glorified body at the Rapture, we are right now justified.

    Believers have been called, justified and actually have been glorified because God is soveregin.

    Notice the words you posted from Rom. 8:29............"we have been called, we have been justified, we have been glorifed"

    HAVE BEEN is past tense!!!!
     
  3. Major, I never said otherwise. Please read what I said again because I said that the word "predestinate" is used in regard to those who are already saved and the saved are predestined to being conformed to the image of the Son.

    Yes, we have been glorified because we are completely identified with the Lord Jesus in His glory:

    "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
     
  4. Jerry.......you said:
    "It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:"

    That was what I was responding to.
     
  5. Major, do you deny that what I said there is true? If your answer is "yes" then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.

    Thanks!
     
  6. No. I think I must have fallen in the floor. I agree.
     
  7. Hi Jerry - If you don't mind me replying with a nutshell response, I wanted to share with you that I believe the "predestination" of everyone who comes into this life is already foreknown by God and it stands to reason that future foreknown is future preordained or predestined and God needs not to change anything within it, because of His omniscience.

    Since He foresaw all that will transpire, even from eternity past and therefore prior to creation, He could have chosen a different way, but instead chose everything to occur as it is.

    Hope my brief reply doesn't seem to interrupt your intended thought in this thread.

    His Best For Our Worst <><
     
  8. netchaplin,

    I appreciate your reply. When the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge of God" can we not understand that that expression is "figurative" in nature?

    It is a fact that many of the great Calvinists teachers say that with God all things are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" or "after." William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

    "Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).

    Since with God all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after then with Him there can be no 'foreknowledge." John Wesley had the same understanding of the eternal state that I have been discussing:

    "The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge...It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
     
  9. Major, I like that! A little sense of humor goes a long way on Christian forums. Keep it up.
     
  10. You've mentioned two pretty good Bible scholars here who do well when it comes to pertinent doctrine. In my opinion it is highly sensible to accept that considering God's omniscience, He has never had to learn anything and therefore all His knowledge is altogether, without increase, which means His knowledge of all things has always been present as He has been, without a beginning. He and everything He knows have always existed simultaneously, which is obviously His most profound attribute.

    As for Wm. Ames comment that, "there is nothing before or after," This would restrict reference to God having no beginning or ending, but the terms before and after would be in collation to creation; for it is solely in creation that time exists which serves as the base-timeline, between eternity past (before this present creation) and eternal future (after this present creation expires).

    God knows who will and will not choose salvation even before creating!

    Concerning Jn. Wesley's comment, "But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?", is shockingly nonsensical (no reflection on you of course). I believe his statement evinces misunderstanding as to the definition of omniscience; which designs the intention that God has always known everything, because there's nothing He has never known.
     
  11. Since all things with God are "simultaneous" then with Him all things are happening at the present moment. After all, the word "simultaneous" means "existing or happening at the same time." That can only mean that when any verse speaks of Him doing something before or after something else then the "time element" in that verse cannot be taken literally.

    For instance, take the following verse:

    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

    Could it not also be said that God chose us "after" the foundation of the world as well? After all, since all things are simultaneous with God then common sense dictates that with God the very moment which He chose us "before" the foundation of the world was the same exact moment for Him that occurred "after" the foundation of the world. Could it not also be said that He chose us the very moment when we believed?

    Yes, in the eternal state God knows whom He will choose for salvation even before creation but in 'time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
     
  12. I'm not certain that time is non-existent to God. The very idea of "The Ancient of Days" (Dan7:9,13,22)deals with time.
    Of course , being the only immortal One, it does not effect Him, but that does not mean He is beyond, unaware or numb to time.
     
  13. I am glad you saw it, not all people have the ability to laugh anymore.
     
  14. I sure do....


    This is falling "in" the floor:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Jerry, you said............
    "Yes, in the eternal state God knows whom He will choose for salvation even before creation but in 'time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:"

    Jerry, I must point out to you that that is an error. By what you said, it places salvation into what we do and that is not what Scriptures say.

    Christians are not saved by anything they have done. They are not ultimately saved because they made a choice; but, because God chose them. In other words, according to His great love and mercy He saved us. What a blessed gospel! God reaches out and saves those who cannot save themselves.
     
  16. But we are not passive puppets, Major:

    God choose the whole planet: That was what Jesus says He came to live and die for. The Price has been paid for everyone, but we must make the decision.

    It's cooperative, or He would not have said "Come!"
     
  17. Major, if you are right then please explain the answer given by Paul and the disciples who were with him when the Philippian jailer asked what HE MUST DO in order to be saved:

    "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
     
  18. Of course that is true.
     
    Rusty likes this.
  19. All through the ministry of Jesus on Earth you saw some who accepted Him and some who did not. Each of them did so with their own free will, for their own reasons, whether their reasons were good or bad.
    God's foreknowledge of events does no in any way impact the fact that when most of the Pharisees saw and heard Jesus they did not like Him, or percieve who He was. That was their choice. That many of the poorest and most pitiful heard Him and were moved to change their ways was their choice.
    God knows all, He also permits all to choose as they wish.
     
    Rusty and Major say Amen and like this.
  20. Jerry, we are elected BEFORE the foundation of the world was ever laid, NOT after we believed.

    Ephesians 1:4
    "According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

    You are saying in comment #14 that we are elected AFTER we believe.

    Your comment was
    "Yes, in the eternal state God knows whom He will choose for salvation even before creation but in 'time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:"
     

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