Poll on hell

What do you believe?


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Neighbor Jim,
I have given your above views much thought and no matter how many times I add 2+2 here I keep coming up with a form of docetism heresy. You really need to reign in your imagination.
You really do need to subordinate your thinking to God's word.
I am urging you out of concern for you and for no other consideration.

Psa 139:7. Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
Psa 139:8. If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Psa 139:9. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Psa 139:10. even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11. If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"
Psa 139:12. even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.
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"Where shall I flee from your presence?"
"If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!"
-- calvin
Well, all this being true, how can "Hell" be a place AWAY from the presence of God?
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"Where shall I flee from your presence?"
"If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!"
-- calvin
Well, all this being true, how can "Hell" be a place AWAY from the presence of God?
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Hell, as in the Lake of Fire, is not SHEOL! Whenever we encounter the word "hell" in scripture, we must do due diligence to determine which "hell" is being alluded to. Is it the Lake of Fire (referred also as Gehenna, or Tartarus), the place of eternal punishment, or is it the grave, Sheol, Hades? Sheol or Hades is the grave, the place of the unbelieving dead, who await final judgment.

The Lake of Fire is a place where God's presence will be ABSENT, which makes it torment. Even the worst sinner on earth has no clue about torment living on this earth, which is Satan's territory, but the presence of God and His mercies are still always at work. It is because of the Body of Christ on earth that the wicked have it "so good". True justice is still in the offing.
 
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I am in agreement with Euphemia. Sheol is not Hell.

My understanding is that Sheol is the Hebrew term for Hades. However, a separate Hebrew word is used to describe Hell which is Gehenna.

This is also the ancient Jewish teaching which divides Sheol from Gehenna.
 
I will even go as far as to say this. If I am not telling you the truth then I will Have Brother Abdicate ban me. Is this fare for you ?
I agree with what you're saying. But when one doesn't agree with you, move on unless they ask you to continue. Jesus was 100% man and lived by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. When we died the spirit is released back to God, Ecc 12:7, and Jesus went to preach to the captive in hell and paradise, 1 Peter 3:17-20. I do not believe He suffered the torment of Hell's fury, there's no evidence of that. Jesus went to thumb His nose at those angles held captive, Jude 1:6, for their acts in Genesis 6, and all those attempts to stop His lineage, and to preach His message to the saint of the OT, and to tell those who rejected God's plea to those in hell what they missed out on, Acts 2:31. While Jesus was 100% man on earth in the flesh, He completely surrendered His Lordship, and chose to live as a man led by the Holy Spirit to show us we too can do what He did, and more. He took away the sin from our souls by us dying with Him on the cross, raising from the dead to newness of life to create a new creature: A sinless soul and spirit in the body of sin. Under the law, our souls were subject to our bodies. Under grace, our souls are free from our bodies' judgements. Then when we surrender our bodies to the will of the spirit, we are changed into the likeness of Christ ON EARTH, bringing into captive freedom our bodies. A true oxymoron. :)

Please note the use of lower case 's' in 'spirit'.
Some simple instructions: both Greek and Hebrew have no letter cases in the scriptures (although Greek language does have upper and lower case, all the scriptures are written in uppercase.) Hebrew has only one form of the letter, although there are different phases Hebrew has gone through. The "Hebrew" letters of today are actually Aramaic. To apply English rule to a foreign language always leads to errors, which is why a good translations will ignore upper and lower cases. Further more, neither Greek nor Hebrew have punctuations. So when you see a comma, or a period, it's wrong. The only indication of change is a paragraph spacing. Now read the word of God without these limitations and see what dogma changes!

Now, I use the KJV as my primary version, but it's not perfect. "Hell" has three translations with three meanings in Greek and the KJV calls them all "hell". This is an error, because Hades refers to the intermediate state of the dead (disembodied spirits) who are awaiting the Judgment. Gehenna, on the other hand, refers to the location of the final state of the wicked after the Judgment, the "hell" we envision with fire. In fact there are levels of hell, Deut 32:22.

All verses in Matthew that use the word "hell" is Gehenna except Matt 11:23, and 16:18. Mark, all are Gehenna. Luke is 2 Hades and 1 Gehenna, and John doesn't contain the word Hell. Acts 2:27 quotes Psa 16:8 equating Sheol with Hades. The two times hell is used in Acts is Hades. James' only time is Gehenna. 2 Peter 2:4's hell is Tartaroo which is the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews. And finally all of Revelation uses the Greek word Hades.

So, there ya go. Now, here's the kicker... Gehenna all also means the grave. Sheol can be ALL the Greek words: hell fire, grave, and Tartaroo. You must must must must must must take all of the Scriptures into account to sort all this out. Gehenna was a real place in Jerusalem, the "Ge-Hinnom", "Gorge of Hinnom", but was used as an example of hell fire because Gehenna was the garbage dump, and anyone who's lived next to one knows they stick and they self-combust and burn uncontrollably except when rotated. It's an amazing study (garbage dumps). Since Acts 2:27 refers to Psa 16:10, I looked up Psa 16:10 in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT by the rabbis) and it uses the Greek word Hades.

Now, both of you need to understand that arguing with one another knowing full well that the other won't listen is just pride. Be careful.
 
P.S. In Arabic, hell is Jahannam from, you guessed it, Gehenna. What was so special about this place... the site of pure evil. Ben-Hinnom (the son or sons of Hinnom), on the south side of Mount Zion, a place which was notorious from the time of Ahaz as the seat of the worship of Moloch (2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3; 2 Chr 33:6; Jer 7:31, etc.) - after birth abortion, infanticide! So sad. So remember this when you read about Gehenna in the New Testament.
 
Brother Abdicate Hello,
Perhaps the Lord might lead you to start a few good threads where we can feast on His written word. If you do, how about some guid lines so we can honestly feast and be fed.
Just a thought...
Blessings and Love in Christ
Jim
Will see. I've started quite a few that have died out... maybe you could peruse them and see if any should/could be revived :)
 
I wish that was true.
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What would it take to set your mind at ease and become a believer (in U.S.)?
Interested in more biblical proof? (I could easily write a book on the subject.)
I still remember the day I learned of universal salvation. It was one of the greatest days of my life!
 
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What would it take to set your mind at ease and become a believer (in U.S.)?
Interested in more biblical proof? (I could easily write a book on the subject.)
I still remember the day I learned of universal salvation. It was one of the greatest days of my life!

Universal Salvation is a lie of the enemy. It is a dangerous doctrine of demons and many will never see the Kingdom of God because of its foolishness.

Don't even try to threaten us with an attempt to lead anyone here toward it.
 
I have studied Greek and hold two certificates in theology.
I have come to the conclusion that discussing Greek is vanity in the face of the sure knowledge that The Lord has raised up translators to render the ancient texts into language that His people of today can understand.
Greek like any other language has many idiomatic phrases and idiom is widely used. That is why being dogmatic on the lexical meaning of a word can be misleading.
In the case of Hell , there is also idiom used both in Greek and English.
 
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That last post was not intended to be prideful.
It was merely a platform for the basis of my conclusions that being dogmatic on Greek words is of little value.
 
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"Where shall I flee from your presence?"
"If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!"
-- calvin
Well, all this being true, how can "Hell" be a place AWAY from the presence of God?
...........
That is a fair question.
Firstly, I set forth that scripture to be illustrative of the fact that logically there is no place that God can not go to or be at.

If God creates a 'place', it would be a logical absurdity to claim that He can not go there.
How can anywhere He created possibly be beyond His reach? This is where we get the idea of 'omnipresence' from.
But having created a 'place', is it beyond reason to learn or understand that He might choose to not allow His presence to be noticeable in that 'place'?
I don't limit the Lord, but He either limits his presence or more probably limits the awareness of His presence to some.
For example I believe that the final condition of the eternally damned will be an existence eternally removed from the presence of God, yet not removed from his knowledge or His reach.
This would be the lake of fire---the second death
If we assume that the lake of fire is a literal lake, we might want to think a little about what surrounds this lake; there must be some means of containing it.....establishing limits
But if we accept (as we must), that the lake of fire is descriptive of the final existence for the eternally damned, then it is reasonable to accept that God will not visit the damned in their agony and torment.
But He must be aware of those who are eternally damned even if they are not aware of Him.

So to recap, is it reasonable to think that the Lord God could possibly create a place beyond His reach?
A place where He can not go if He so chooses, needs to?
Speaking of the capabilities and limitations of God, there is a question floated by some;
"Can God create an object so big or so heavy that even He could not lift it?" This one of those damned if I do , damned if I don't posers. If the answer is 'yes' then God is not all powerful. If the answer is 'no' then God is not all powerful.
You can Google this paradox if you are interested.

Here is a graphic portrayal of a certain paradox.
paradox.jpg

My purpose in mentioning paradoxes is not to change the direction of the OP. Just wanting to say that there are many things that must be factored into the way we understand things of which we have no first hand experience or knowledge.
 
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I have studied Greek and hold two certificates in theology.
I have come to the conclusion that discussing Greek is vanity in the face of the sure knowledge that The Lord has raised up translators to render the ancient texts into language that His people of today can understand.
Greek like any other language has many idiomatic phrases and idiom is widely used. That is why being dogmatic on the lexical meaning of a word can be misleading.
In the case of Hell , there is also idiom used both in Greek and English.
I have a good dictionary :D A lot is lost in translations and cultural understanding over time.
 
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What would it take to set your mind at ease and become a believer (in U.S.)?
Interested in more biblical proof? (I could easily write a book on the subject.)
I still remember the day I learned of universal salvation. It was one of the greatest days of my life!
I am sorry bud. You can be forgiven for the belief, but it is very wishful thinking. We would not be on earth right now denying ourselves, carrying our cross and following Jesus to reach the unsaved if it were true.
 
This is not meant for intense debate. I am just interested in CFS's stats. The poll is for those who go to hell, not Purgatory.

I would also submit that there is no purgatory.
For we will all be in our graves awaiting the first resurrection.
In regards to the lake of fire being eternal, I am still conflicted with what to decide.
 
I would submit that hell is eternal.

Jesus was simply using picture language in Isa 66:24. How can spiritual beings like the devil or the false prophet be burned to nothing. How can you annihilate "a spirit". I would submit that hell is simpy separation from God and not annihilation..(2 Thess 1:9 They will be punished with eternal destruction (olethros), forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.) And as we all know, the word "olethros" does not mean annihilation.

Destruction (3639)(olethros from ollumi = to destroy. Derivative = apollumi = destroy utterly or fully and has to do with that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose) is a state of utter and hopeless ruin and the end of all that gives worth to human existence! Do not confuse with a state of annihilation (and non-existence so that there is no longer an actual personal perception) for olethros signifies an unavoidable, very real experience of distress and torment! The destruction Paul warns about is a time of unavoidable distress, disaster and ruin. This destruction will not be a loss of being but rather a loss of well-being. The idea of olethros is to suffer the loss of all that gives worth to existence.

Isa 66:24 Picture, figurative, image language...

Their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched (comp. Mark 9:44, 46, 48). It cannot be by chance that the evangelical prophet concludes his glorious prophecy with this terrible note of warning. Either he was divinely directed thus to terminate his teaching, or he felt the need that there was of his emphasizing all the many warnings dispersed throughout his "book" by a final, never-to-be-forgotten picture. The undying worm and the quenchless fire - images introduced by him - became appropriated thenceforth to the final condition of impenitent sinners (Jud. 16:17; Ecclus. 7:17), and were even adopted by our Lord himself in the same connection (Mark 9.). The incongruity of the two images shows that they are not to be understood literally; but both alike imply everlasting continuance, and are incompatible with either of the two modern heresies of universalism or annihilationism.

What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists. In any case there is a strange solemnity in this being the last word of the prophet’s book of revelation, even as there is a like awfulness in the picture of the final judgment, which appears in Matthew 25:46, at all but the close of our Lord’s public teaching. Cheyne quotes a singular rubric of the Jewish ritual, that when this chapter, or Ecclesiastes 12, or Malachi 3, was read in the synagogue, the last verse but one should be repeated after the last, so that mercy might appear as in the end triumphant after and over judgment.

Verse 24
This verse describes a terrible scene. It refers to the deep narrow valley called Hinnom. This valley is near to *Jerusalem, on the south side. (The *New Testament uses the *Greek word Gehenna for the *Hebrew word Hinnom – see Matthew 10:28). In the Hinnom Valley, two wicked kings of Israel burned their sons as a *sacrifice to false gods (Ahaz, see 2 Chronicles 28:3; Manasseh, see 2 Chronicles 33:6). And other people copied this wicked behaviour (see Jeremiah 7:32; 19:5-6; 32:35).

Later, the inhabitants of *Jerusalem threw their rubbish into the Hinnom Valley. What worms did not eat, fire destroyed. The fire never went out. Soon, what happened became powerful picture language to describe Hell. Jesus uses this verse, to mean ‘to *destroy totally’ (see Mark 9:48). Isaiah 66:24 is describing those people who refuse to serve God. They refuse to obey God’s instructions. But God is the origin of life. So these people have removed themselves from the God who gave them life. The verse describes their punishment as the extreme opposite of life. They have brought about their own terrible punishment. And that punishment is death that lasts for all time. (See Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10.)

Isaiah 66:24. And they shall go forth — Namely, those who had joined themselves to the communion of the church spoken of in the preceding verses; and look upon the carcasses of the men that have sinned against me — Meaning chiefly the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ and his gospel, including, however, all impenitent sinners, and especially all the enemies and persecutors of God’s truth and people. By looking upon their carcasses is meant beholding the dreadful vengeance taken on them. This is here represented in figurative language. The misery is described by an allusion to the frightful spectacle of a field of battle covered with the carcasses of the slain, which lie rotting upon the ground, full of worms, crawling about them, and feeding on them. It seems the Lord, by his prophet, first intends to set forth the dreadful temporal calamities that should come upon the Jews, in the destruction of their city and nation by the Romans; in which destruction, as has been intimated in the note on Isaiah 66:16, not less than between two and three millions, first and last, were cut off by the sword, famine, and pestilence. But when it is added, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, it is certain the punishment of the wicked in the world to come is chiefly intended. These words, it is well known, are applied by our Saviour, (Mark 9:44,) to express the everlasting punishment of the wicked in Gehenna, or hell, so called, in allusion to the valley of Hinnom, the place where the idolatrous Jews celebrated that horrible rite of making their children pass through the fire, that is, of burning them in sacrifice to Moloch; concerning which place see note Isaiah 30:33. “Our Saviour,” says Bishop Lowth, expressed the state of the blessed by sensible images; such as paradise, Abraham’s bosom, or, which is the same thing, a place to recline next to Abraham at table, in the kingdom of heaven; (see Matthew 8:11; John 13:23;) for we could not possibly have any conception of it, but by analogy from worldly objects: in like manner he expressed the place of torment under the image of Gehenna; and the punishment of the wicked by the worm, which there preyed on the carcasses, and the fire, which consumed the wretched victims. Marking, however, in the strongest manner, the difference between Gehenna and the invisible place of torment: namely, that in the former, the suffering is transient; the worm itself, that preys on the body, dies: whereas, in the figurative Gehenna, the instruments of punishment shall be everlasting, and the suffering without end; for there the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. “These emblematical images, expressing heaven and hell, were in use among the Jews before our Saviour’s time; and in using them, he complied with their notions. Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God, says the Jew to our Saviour, Luke 14:15. And, in regard to Gehenna, the Chaldee paraphrast renders everlasting, or continual burnings, by the Gehenna of everlasting fire. And before this time the son of Sirach (Sir 7:17) had said, The vengeance of the ungodly is fire and worms. So likewise the author of the book of Judith, ‘Wo to the nation rising up against my kindred, the Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment, putting fire and worms in their flesh:’ Jdt 16:17, manifestly referring to the same emblem.”
 
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