Passive Pastoring: A Modern Disease

Musicmaster

Musicmaster

There is more negative said about pastors in the Bible than positive. That should push more men behind pulpits to become more engaged in ACTIVE pastoring rather than PASSIVE pastoring, which isn't pastoring at all.

Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Jeremiah 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 22:22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.

Jeremiah 23:1-2
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

The pastors have not visited with the people. That's a glaring clue as to the pharisaical tendency of many pastors, even today.

Here is a message I sent this morning to a local 'passive' pastor, along with the above verses, who initially wanted to meet with me, and then you can read his shocking response.

===============
Modern pastors will say that those verses don't apply to them as modern pastors. One need only consider the broader implications into the arena of isolationism, which springs up from the mentality of most modern pastors of today. Most have lost the understanding of what it means to pastor the babes in Christ. They leave it to their distant teaching from behind pulpits, and make little to no effort to engage with all their membership. The heart of ACTIVE pastoring is sick and feeble in America and Western Europe today.
===============

His immediate response just this morning was this:

"I’m sorry you feel that way."

As shocking as that was, it goes much deeper than just what I think. He wasn't even willing to admit that there is a problem. Church organizations have been reporting for years the losses in membership, and they completely miss the fact that the prime reason for the losses is because there's no relationship that would foster fellowship. The mature believers out there don't need pastoring. It's the babes in Christ who need pastoring. The mature believers need to be equipped and empowered to pastor, with the CEO being just what he is as a distant teacher and coach. The frontline army of those who disciple the new believers, THEY are the ones functioning as pastors, not that guy with the much larger paycheck orchestrating everything from behind a pulpit and from his office.

So, we need an army of REAL pastors rather than just those who are "pastor" in title only because of their seeking after a LARGE following under their teachings. More people means more money. That's the simple and sad reality of it all. Far too many men enjoy that title given to them who are not at all worthy of that title. As a matter of fact, it shouldn't even be a title. None of us should have titles, but rather serve the Lord in simplicity of function in the power of Christ.

Teachers are teachers, and those who pastor are the ones who are and should be discipling the babes in Christ face to face, not from a distance greater than arm's length.

Thoughts?

MM
 
For the benefit of all you mature believers out there who attend churchianity:

Pastoring, as an active verb and descriptor of a vitally important function within the Church under the Headship of Christ Jesus, is what ALL mature believers should be doing within your respective church organizations rather than to leave that function to the hirlings; especially in those organizations that the 'pastor' feels has too many people people out there for him to develop any depth of relationship and familiarization with.

Remember, when others are greater than arm's length from you, you're nothing but a distant teacher...a voice yammering to a mere audience of people you have no relationship with.

Strangely, there are marriages where the couple prefers the other be farther than arm's length throughout their lives in this world. That would be considered wrong by most people's understanding, and yet here we are, settling for passive pastoring as the norm in how it should be.

This is messed up to the core.

It's a sickness that infects far too many.

MM
 
I went to a church where you could tell the "pastor" had just downloaded a sermon from the internet and it sounded like he was reading it for the first time that morning! Didn't have any enthusiasm or passion and seemed like he was already 3\4 dead. It was a depressing service at best. Being a pastor is a calling and is a tough job, there is so much more to it than just preaching on Sunday morning. If you think you want to be a pastor you should first seek God and His will for your life. This is a job you do because you love the word, not for money.
 
My little parish has just less than 25 members and even though I am just beginning to feel my feet i do not know exactly what to expect from a church.

My pastor seems interested in us, and does ask us how we are etc…

My pastor seems to travel around to other churches and then another pastor will take his place at our church.

Not sure why this happens.
 
Dave F. said:
I went to a church where you could tell the "pastor" had just downloaded a sermon from the internet and it sounded like he was reading it for the first time that morning! Didn't have any enthusiasm or passion and seemed like he was already 3\4 dead. It was a depressing service at best. Being a pastor is a calling and is a tough job, there is so much more to it than just preaching on Sunday morning. If you think you want to be a pastor you should first seek God and His will for your life. This is a job you do because you love the word, not for money.
Click to expand...

Actually, the institutional church pastor is a creation of men, not God. I will agree it's a tough job, but they take up that burden knowing full well that it's tough.

Like I said in the OP, what they do is mostly teach...those who teach larger congregations. They pastor few to no people at all when they can't or don't know all the people of their following.

Pastoring is the job of ALL mature believers who disciple others. You don't have to be known by the title of 'pastor' to actually function in that capacity within the (C)hurch.

I may not BE a "pastor" by way of a title attributed to me by some man-made, institutional hiring board, but I certainly FUNCTION as a REAL one (a biblical one) rather than in title only.

MM
 
I don't understand some people who think of themselves as pastors when they are clearly not.
Teaching is a bit different from pastoring. But everyone learns better with when pastors and teachers work together.

I've only been visited once at home by a minister of a church. I didn't call him a pastor because he didn't really pastor me. I remember going in his office once for prayer. It was like going into the principals office. Other times we had to meet somewhere just so he could tell me off.

I still don't really understand the way church works in some established settings. I could never figure out why someone was on the board and how and why and what rules were all about. I guess was never given the 'handbook'

I belong to a garden club and we just all pitch in and I know how that works. We actively look after each other. When I joined they did give me a badge, a 'consitution' and have to pay subs. We know where the money is going (there's a treasurer, a president and a sectetary in which we take turns) and we organise trips every year.

With church though, it's all a bit of a mystery. I know they have annual reports and things but it just seems ONE person wants to be seen to do everything.
 
Lanolin, let's ask the right question:

Why is it that so many who have the title of "pastor" don't actually FUNCTION as pastors?

Anyone can serve in the function of pastoring, and do so without having that function name as a title. The FUNCTION of pastoring is what people do when they share the Gospel with someone, bring them to faith, and disciple them.

Lanolin, THAT is the FUNCTION of pastoring that is the responsibility of ALL men who share the Gospel.

So, your dilemma doesn't make sense to me in this regard.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
There is more negative said about pastors in the Bible than positive. That should push more men behind pulpits to become more engaged in ACTIVE pastoring rather than PASSIVE pastoring, which isn't pastoring at all.

Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Jeremiah 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 22:22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.

Jeremiah 23:1-2
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

The pastors have not visited with the people. That's a glaring clue as to the pharisaical tendency of many pastors, even today.

Here is a message I sent this morning to a local 'passive' pastor, along with the above verses, who initially wanted to meet with me, and then you can read his shocking response.

===============
Modern pastors will say that those verses don't apply to them as modern pastors. One need only consider the broader implications into the arena of isolationism, which springs up from the mentality of most modern pastors of today. Most have lost the understanding of what it means to pastor the babes in Christ. They leave it to their distant teaching from behind pulpits, and make little to no effort to engage with all their membership. The heart of ACTIVE pastoring is sick and feeble in America and Western Europe today.
===============

His immediate response just this morning was this:

"I’m sorry you feel that way."

As shocking as that was, it goes much deeper than just what I think. He wasn't even willing to admit that there is a problem. Church organizations have been reporting for years the losses in membership, and they completely miss the fact that the prime reason for the losses is because there's no relationship that would foster fellowship. The mature believers out there don't need pastoring. It's the babes in Christ who need pastoring. The mature believers need to be equipped and empowered to pastor, with the CEO being just what he is as a distant teacher and coach. The frontline army of those who disciple the new believers, THEY are the ones functioning as pastors, not that guy with the much larger paycheck orchestrating everything from behind a pulpit and from his office.

So, we need an army of REAL pastors rather than just those who are "pastor" in title only because of their seeking after a LARGE following under their teachings. More people means more money. That's the simple and sad reality of it all. Far too many men enjoy that title given to them who are not at all worthy of that title. As a matter of fact, it shouldn't even be a title. None of us should have titles, but rather serve the Lord in simplicity of function in the power of Christ.

Teachers are teachers, and those who pastor are the ones who are and should be discipling the babes in Christ face to face, not from a distance greater than arm's length.

Thoughts?

MM
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My thoughts are that YOU are very correct!

The modern teaching at the seminary level has been for the past 50 or 75 years........Dont YOU be the problem!

Pastors are taught to keep the people happy, grow self esteem and big crowds = more money!

MM.......I was there. The SBC taught, and encouraged its Pastors to be Big Business or they would fail.
When the church becomes a business allow me to list some of the ramifications that will take place................
-Pastors function more like CEOs
-Members are turned into customers
-Other churches are seen as competition
-Evangelism is reduced to marketing
-Church planting looks more like franchising
-Numbers are the primary measure of success
-Prayer and fasting is replaced by programs and formulas
-Preaching sounds more like motivational speaking
-Worship is turned into a performance
-The saints are entertained instead of equipped
-Disciples of Christ become disciples of a church brand
-A living organism becomes a lifeless organization
-A leader’s empire is built instead of the kingdom of God advanced

I am in 100% agreement with you so Don’t get me wrong; there is certainly a financial element to leading a church. Even Jesus took donations and had a money bag. I am not opposed to healthy structure, budgets, or processes within a church model. And I do not believe that the size of a church is the issue here IMHO!

Let’s get back to the Word of God and the presence of God. Let’s get back to the power and leading of the Holy Spirit. Let’s get back to prayer, evangelism, and discipleship. Let’s get back to the kingdom of God.
 
Hello Musicmaster;

I have witnessed all the points you outlined in Jeremiah. I also have been horribly at fault for my mistakes while pastoring in the church.

The man who replied to your message with, "I’m sorry you feel that way." Unfortunately, this was a rude dismissing of your concern.

Many pastors who felt they were called by God were not, instead, they felt led by God. There is difference. If I am led by God, I'm going to prayerfully seek God, get counsel, ask lots of questions to my personal or seasoned pastors before God confirms that I'm actually called by Him.

Even with that, it's been throughout history that many, many pastors called or not, gave in to their sin or ignored the sheep in their home church or community. Today pastors don't even know the names of individuals in their congregation.

Many ministers don't apply their training or education, having a tendency to "shoot from the pulpit" toward a member in the congregation instead of pulling them aside privately.

There are ministers who feel God is calling them to another country to lead a church but end up taking advantage of a green card or permanent visa or citizenship, yet remain isolated within their own nationality and culture.

The worst are the passive pastor, the one who appear somber and a lone Christian. There's no glory in that. I can go on and on, but I have seen this in the pastoral ministry.

There are many anointed pastors today, praise God! but the ones who shouldn't be pastoring a church for the reasons in this topic should be called out. Instead, it gets overlooked by charm, a charismatic personality or other underlying motives.

God bless you, MM, and thank you for sharing this topic.
 
Dave F. said:
I went to a church where you could tell the "pastor" had just downloaded a sermon from the internet and it sounded like he was reading it for the first time that morning! Didn't have any enthusiasm or passion and seemed like he was already 3\4 dead. It was a depressing service at best. Being a pastor is a calling and is a tough job, there is so much more to it than just preaching on Sunday morning. If you think you want to be a pastor you should first seek God and His will for your life. This is a job you do because you love the word, not for money.
Click to expand...

Yes sir......been right there with you. Men who are educated beyond their intelligence.

Then there is just the opposite. When I was about 10 years old, I spent my summers with my great grand mother and grandmother in West Point Al.

In here church.....The West Point Missionary Baptist Church, her pastor was a farmer. He worked his farm every day and preached every Sunday. He was so excited when he preached that he never stood in one spot. He walked from one side of the platform to the other shouting out Scripture and the congregation shouted all the time...AMen-Amen Amen! That stook with me to this very day. I was too young to know this and only realized it 15 years later while in seminary.

One of my speaking professors said......
"You can know the Bible from verse to verse by memory but if you do not BELIEVE it all you will do is teach a history class.
If you BELEIEVE the you will be excited about it and then every one will know and it does not makes any difference is you understand OSAS, Prophecy or the Trinity."

I talked with that professor and explained to him that even though that old farmer had NO education at all, I learned more from him than any other preacher I had known.

My professor advised me to grasp the simple fact that the Holy Spirit was impressing upon ME what HE wanted me to model my self after. Did exactly that and 50 years later I am retired from the ministry having spent my whole career in just 2 churches.

I would have stayed in just ONE but the same man who lead my father to Christ died at his church and his family asked me to come and take their dads place. I could not say no!
 
Musicmaster said:
Lanolin, let's ask the right question:

Why is it that so many who have the title of "pastor" don't actually FUNCTION as pastors?

Anyone can serve in the function of pastoring, and do so without having that function name as a title. The FUNCTION of pastoring is what people do when they share the Gospel with someone, bring them to faith, and disciple them.

Lanolin, THAT is the FUNCTION of pastoring that is the responsibility of ALL men who share the Gospel.

So, your dilemma doesn't make sense to me in this regard.

MM
Click to expand...
It's not MY dilemma its the dilemma of people who call themselves pastors who don't pastor!
It's like the teachers who do everything in the classroom except teach lol.

Probably something to do with the institutional environment perhaps? The 'system'? I know in many organisations, people just blame the system when they can't actually do their job.

along with pastors and teachers, you also need evangelists and I think apostles, but whether that is one person or many or shared task, or taking turns, the Bible isn't always clear on it except you need a whole team and everyone working together.
 
In schools, especially tertiary/university there is usually student support and that is a pastoral role. Looking after new students, getting them settled in etc.

Sometimes it's called chaplaincy.

Usually the teachers are too busy to also pastor, and thats true that many just want to teach they don't want to be involved with all the other things students need like providing lunch, accomodation, clothing, etc. But they need all this to learn.
 
I don't think the pastors of the churches I had been to (or who called themselves pastor) really cared that much about where I lived and whether I could get to church, and had a job..although they may have prayed, they didn't really offer any practical help in that area. Though some churches do have budgeting services and things and community meals, I don't think they go out of their way for you unless you ask them.
I think they figure that if you can get access to the benefit then it should be alright, but you don't go to church for that, you get that from the govt.

Maybe in the old days before social welfare EVERY ONE got support from the church. If there's a job board, its not likely to be on the church noticeboard. People will just say look online, or ask every business you know. Also I think it depends on where you live. Maybe a big employer happens to go to your church and needs workers, but that never happened in my case. I think when I was unemployed they just thought I ought to volunteer for free to get experience. While that was ok I also needed money to at least pay gas and food for myself etc.
 
Musicmaster said:
For the benefit of all you mature believers out there who attend churchianity:

Pastoring, as an active verb and descriptor of a vitally important function within the Church under the Headship of Christ Jesus, is what ALL mature believers should be doing within your respective church organizations rather than to leave that function to the hirlings; especially in those organizations that the 'pastor' feels has too many people people out there for him to develop any depth of relationship and familiarization with.

Remember, when others are greater than arm's length from you, you're nothing but a distant teacher...a voice yammering to a mere audience of people you have no relationship with.

Strangely, there are marriages where the couple prefers the other be farther than arm's length throughout their lives in this world. That would be considered wrong by most people's understanding, and yet here we are, settling for passive pastoring as the norm in how it should be.

This is messed up to the core.

It's a sickness that infects far too many.

MM
Click to expand...
I have been invited to the home of some of the church people and the pastor today.

I feel honoured.

I never got this kind of treatment before in any other church.

I feel nervous, because I am new, but its a great feeling when you feel like you belong, instead of just feeling like your a prop.
 
Via dolarossa said:
I have been invited to the home of some of the church people and the pastor today.

I feel honoured.

I never got this kind of treatment before in any other church.

I feel nervous, because I am new, but its a great feeling when you feel like you belong, instead of just feeling like your a prop.
Click to expand...

I don't have to tell you how fulfilling it is to be a blessing to others. The return is far more glorious than making a million dollars a day.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
I don't have to tell you how fulfilling it is to be a blessing to others. The return is far more glorious than making a million dollars a day.

MM
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know that what you say and when you say it must be inspired.

When He allows for one of His children to grow He sends a messenger.

I’ve noticed this the last few days on here.
 
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