Not all who call "Lord, Lord"

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by JohnC, Oct 10, 2014.

  1. Hey all,

    Matt 7:21-23

    I noticed something in the passage that stuck me.... That somehow, I glossed over a hundred times before.. but it caught my eye this time....

    Well.. If you follow along with the kick I have been on lately - you can probably guess.... but here goes....

    "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? In your name we have cast out devils, and in your name, done many Miraculous/wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, you that work iniquity."

    There's a critical contrast here...

    The contrast is between
    "he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven"
    "You that work iniquity"...

    Thus - the contrast clarifies "Work Iniquity" NOT as following the moral laundry list of "bad" immoral behavior... but rather "Works Iniquity" is defined in contrast against "the will of my Father in Heaven"

    It's the central message....
    Hear God
    Obey God
  2. Not sure I understand everything you wrote, but yes obeying God, by living his Word is the only way one will ever enter the kingdom of God.

    What most people don’t understand it is not a spiritual person’s work that is being done. It is God’s work in and through the person who is living God’s Word.

    Paul knew this, and I believe he believed everyone knew it was God’s Work not the person doing good. Because of this he did not believe he needed to mention that in his letters.

    Personally I believe Jesus used Paul’s writings like he use parables.

    Jesus told us that if we proved we love him by living his commandments he and the Father would make a home in such a person.

    (John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

    One can’t love God in any other way then to live his Word. One can’t live God’s Word unless he or she is given the grace, and allows him or herself to be guided by God.
  3. #3 JohnC, Oct 13, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2014
    What I am seeing is that how WE would frequently define "Doing iniquity" - aka the laundry list of bad behavior - doesn't really do justice to the real "Doing Iniquity" - which is able to hide just as neatly under the guise of good behavior....

    I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I have heard HUNDREDS of sermons at many, many churches that talk about "Turning from Iniquity" and "Repentance" and subjects like this... and I now realize that the vast majority of them were basically about leaning on self will and strengthening your resolve - because they never hinged upon relying on God... They don't contrast Iniquity with Seeking God's Will, but rather, Iniquity is contrasted against Morality.......

    Notice that the Book of Ecclesiastes is Solomon's account of testing out each of 10,000 ways of trying to use self-will to find peace and not succeeding with any of them.... (Vanity of Vanities, all is vanity... AKA - Emptiness of emptinesses.. All is emptiness...)

    He tested out every single flavor of "Self" whatever as a way to find peace and comfort.... and realized that exactly NONE of these actually succeeds in finding EITHER fulfillment OR God....

    Hard work
    Good works

    All of these are simply flavors of the same.... Self will, self strength, Self empowerment.....

    And.. Notice how moving between all of them feels variously like achievement and accomplishment, or backsliding and failure.... but notice how the end result is the same... Simply moving from One flavor of Self-Will to another flavor of Self-Will....

    As such - casting about between these succeeds in doing nothing from God's perspective...
    None of them seek to align your will to God's will...
  4. I partially agree...just how is '''prophesied in His name'' not His will?

    To me it contrasts selfishness vs selflessness. The three works mentioned can all be works that boost our ego. Jesus did not say '''these people will come to me and say they helped an orphan and widow in their affliction and I did not know them''. James 1:27
    Major likes this.
  5. That's a really good question... but Jesus specifically used this wording..... so apparently it does happen....
    Notice that Jesus never claimed that they were *NOT* prophesying things that came true or that they were not working miracles....

    Balaam is an interesting example of people who God has truly gifted - but are misusing their gifts for their own gain..... Prophesying for money, power, and influence... AND... He was acclaimed because his prophecies always came true...

    But.. Was Balaam Obeying the will of God?

    I honestly think that the Church today is completely unprepared for people working honest to goodness "Miracles" and preaching a contrary gospel....

    So... I kinda draw that same comparison..... BUT... Here's where I run into trouble....
    How do you differentiate "Selflessness" that is really "Selfishness" from true obedience to God - AKA "Good works" fueled by self will?

    For example... Christians are sending millions of dollars in Aid to Iraq... and a good portion of it is actually supporting ISIS because they are simply stealing it.... As a result - we are (inadvertently) strengthening the hand of those who are actively persecuting Christians.....

    Is it *REALLY* most pleasing to God that Christians from other places are putting millions of dollars into the hands of ISIS - to continue persecuting Iraqi Christians even more than they do now? (I honestly don't know, but it bothers me, because I am one of those who has sent money)

    And... most likely, God does know how we could help our fellow Christian brothers *Without* supporting ISIS..... (but how do we find out what THAT way really is?)

  6. May I give you something to think about?????

    The passage you quoted....Matthew 7:21-23 really do not refer to believers today.

    Every single born again true believer in Jesus Christ, living or dead will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air according to 1 Corth. and 1 Thess.

    Therefore, none will hear the Lord say...."depart from me".

    This passage has particular reference to the Tribulation Period and the Mellennium itself. That is the time and place to suggest that the Sermon on the Mount will have a realitive meaning for the remnat during that Tribulation time.

    Then also, people speak wonderfully about so called miracle workers and healers today and they say........
    "You can tell that God is with them and in their ministry"!

    Really????? When you read Matthew 7:21-23 can anyone be sure of that??? The name of Christ is on the lips of many people who are leaders of cults and "isms" today. Jim Jones and David Korash and even the chuch in Westborro uses the name of Jesus Christ.

    Just to use the name of Christ and or the Bible is not proff that a ministry is Godly. It is not the OUTWARD profession that tells others we are born again but the INSIDE transformation that we have a relationship with the crucified Christ.
  7. #7 Man-ofGod, Oct 21, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
    If I may, I believe your statement is true if you accept dispensationalism. But 2 tim 3:16 says all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be made perfect, thoroughly furnished unto ALL good works. God is not arbitrary in given favor to any particular people. He is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Where much (light) is given much is required. (Luk 12:48) . Therefore, judgmeent begins with the professed people in Christ 1 Pet 4:17. There will not be a second chance (Rev 22:11)
  8. Yes sir, I am a proponent of Dispensationalism. I seek to interpret the scripture as literally as possible unless they specifically say not to. I hold the position that salvation has always been by faith, but it is manifested differently between Old and New Testaments (Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4; Rom. 4:1-5; John 3:16).

    As one who believes in dispensationalism I accept God’s covenants as vital parts of dispensational activity, but the primary unit of division is the dispensation (i.e., period of time). There are promises to Israel that are yet to be fulfilled. Israel will be completely restored and be prominent in the world as it carries out God’s promises. The Church does not replace Israel. The Church did not exist in O.T. times. Premillennial is held by all dispensationalists. Pre-tribulation rapture is held by almost all dispensationalists that I am aware of.

    All Scripture is profitable however some things are for some people and not all things are for all people. It is always profitable to know who something is written to, why it was written.

    I would however say the God has given the Jews a lot of favor and blessings even after that have turned from Him time and time again.

    Remember Hebrews 1:1
    "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world"

    Correct, there is no second chance after death and Romans 11 says that God is NOT finished with His people the Jews.
  9. #9 Man-ofGod, Oct 21, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
    Appreciate that. I also believe in the historical grammatical method of interpretation and take the scripture literal unless context dictate otherwise. However, Dispensationlist seem to subscribe a bit to a higher critical method of interpretation in which the burden of the interpretation is given to the reader.

    With that said, I believe I take a more simpler approach to scripture ever keeping in mind that God never changes and therefore is not arbitrary in his decisions. The method is outlined below. Food for thought. God Bless.


    1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible. Matthew 5:18

    2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study. 2 Timothy 3:15,16,17

    3. Nothing revealed in the Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering. Deuteronomy
    29:29; Matthew 10:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Philippians 3:15; Isaiah 14:11; Matthew 21:22; John 14:13, 14;
    15:7; James 1:5, 6; 1 John 5:13, 14, 15.

    4. To understand doctrine, bring all the Scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word
    have its proper influence, and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in an error.
    Isaiah 28:7-29; 35:8; Proverbs 19:27; Luke 24:27,44,45; Romans 16:26; James 5:19; 2 Pet. 1:19,20

    5. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound it to me,
    and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be
    thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, not the Bible. Psalms 19:7-11; 119:97-
    105; Matthew 23:8-10; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16; Ezekiel 34:18,19; Luke 11:52; Malachi 2:7,8

    6. God has revealed things to come, by visions, in figures and parables, and in this way the same things are
    often times revealed again and again, by different visions, or in different figures and parables. If you wish to
    understand them, you must combine them all in one. Psalms 89:19; Hosea 12:10; Habakkuk 2:2; Acts 2:17;
    1 Corinthians 10:6; Hebrews 9:9, 24; Psalms 78:2; Matthew 8:13, 34; Genesis 41:1-32; Daniel 2; 7; 8; Acts

    7. Visions are always mentioned as such. 2 Corinthians 12:1

    8. Figures always have a figurative meaning, and are used much in prophecy to represent future things, times
    and events; such as mountains, meaning governments; beasts, meaning kingdoms, waters, meaning people,
    lamps, meaning Word of God, day, meaning year. Daniel 2:35,44; 7:8,17; Revelation 17:1,15; Psalms
    119:105; Ezekiel 4:6

    9. Parables are used as comparison to illustrate subjects, and must be explained in the same way as figures,
    by the subject and Bible. Mark 4:13

    10. Figures sometimes have two or more different significations; as day is used in a figurative sense to represent
    three different periods of time.
    • Indefinite.
    • Definite, a day for a year.
    • Day for a thousand years.
    If you put on the right construction it will harmonize with the Bible and make good sense, otherwise it will not.
    Ecclesiastes 7:14; Ezekiel 4:6; 2 Peter 3:8

    11. How to know when a word is used figuratively: If it makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to
    the simple laws of nature, then it must be understood literally; if not, figuratively. Revelation 12:1,2;17:3-7

    12. To learn the true meaning of figures, trace your figurative word through your Bible, and where you find it
    explained, put it on your figure, and if it makes good sense you need look no further; if not, look again.

    13. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy: If you find every word of
    the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the
    true event. But if one word lacks a fulfillment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future
    development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true, believing children of
    God may never be ashamed. Psalms 21:5; Isaiah 14:17-19; 1 Peter 2:6; Revelation 17:17; Acts 3:18

    14. The most important rule of all is, that you must have faith. It must be a faith that requires a sacrifice, and, if
    tried, would give up the dearest object on earth, the world and all its desires, character, living, occupation,
    friends, home, comforts and worldly honors. If any of these should hinder our believing any part of Gods
    word, it would show our faith to be vain. Nor can we ever believe so long as one of these motives lies lurking
    in our hearts. We must believe that God will never forfeit His word. And we can have confidence that He that
    takes notice of the sparrow, and numbers the hairs of our head, will guard the translation of His own word,
    and throw a barrier around it, and prevent those who sincerely trust in God, and put implicit confidence in His
    word, from erring far from the truth, though they may not understand Hebrew or Greek
  10. Sure

    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "Believers"... Jesus seems to be clarifying that.... and "Not all who call out 'Lord, Lord'" seems to be clarifying this somewhat.....

    With you on this so far... so long as we are talking "True, born again believer in Jesus Christ" .. I think we would both agree that those who are crying out "Lord, Lord" were not really believers, because they had no intention of being obedient to God.... I think this has to get into how you define "Faith".... because faith goes beyond just simply "Profession" - into Belief, Love, and Obedience.... Part of this is to "Disown" your own "Self-will" for God's will....

    Instead, these people are doing "Self-ish" things... Things that serve to bring power, glory, fame, influence, etc upon themselves... and their profession of belief in Jesus is only one of these self-aggrandizing things....

    That's pretty scary when you think about it....

    It's an interesting idea, but currently, I am disagreeing. One of the stated purposes of the Messiah was to "Clarify" the Torah.... Interestingly, when Jesus *DID* clarify the Torah - he made it incredibly strict in terms of Internal holiness and purity rather than less.... and he allowed more leeway in External expression of holiness and purity... Ironically, this is more or less the opposite of what the Pharisees had done... But.. Since we are throwing rocks, we may as well not leave ourselves out either.... Let's face it, this is also the opposite of what many Christian denominations talk about with the focus on External holiness and purity.... Why? It's easy to "measure"....

    Personally... One of my takeaways from The Sermon on the Mount is that NO ONE is good enough to enter heaven on their own merit... Think - if you are just a little angry with your brother... If you think about a woman with lust in your heart... If you have greedy thoughts...

    But.. notice -- This final clarification is that even "holy" works are useless for gaining entrance into Heaven if they are done outside of the Will of the Father....... The prophesying, casting out demons, and working miracles outside of the Will of God are called "Works of Iniquity".... That should give us pause... and I think it's what you are getting at in your next statement...

    Yep.. and more so.....
    The Message is NEVER authorized by the Prophecy or the Miracle... Rather the other way around...
    The Miracle or Prophecy is authorized by the MESSAGE....

    I share your concern that many Christians have this completely backwards.... The vast majority of people (including Christians) will believe "A different Gospel" because of a Miracle or Prophecy.... I fear that when the Adversary starts doing real life miracles as predicted by Jesus - many will be deceived and turn away from the faith.....

    See.. Even today - most Christians point towards Jesus' miracles as authorization of His ministry... and that's backwards... We need to point towards His MESSAGE as authorization of His Miracles....
  11. This still applies, its Like a televangelist Faith healer who uses actors to pretend they were crippled and then start walking in the telecast. The televangelist would then sell holy water that he said he blessed in Jesus name and that whoever buys it will be healed. Now if a person buys this and is healed from their infirmity after receiving it. That doesn't make what the televangelist did right, the person is healed because they believed that the power of Jesus was in the water. They believed that Jesus is with that man, it is because of their faith in Jesus that they are healed. The televangelist however still has to answer for his own actions though because Paul said those that teach will be judged more harshly. The televangelist did not really believe in God's power but was motivated by fame and fortune and liked people thinking he was from God. I believe that the scripture refers to cases like these.
  12. Yes. The whole point of the first part is that he doesn't want us to just beg and plead for forgiveness. You have to admit your sin, believe in Jesus Christ, and confess what sins you have done and ask him for forgiveness. Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. It also says that you should work for Him.
  13. Very nice to be mostly in agreement with you. Even if we do not agree on everything.......that is certainly OK.

    The important thing IMO is that the people Jesus is talking about were never born again believers or He would never have rejected them.
  14. I know that you understand that "Dispensation" simply means TIME......correct?

    A dispensation is an administration, a system, or a method of management. In theology, a dispensation is the divine administration of a period of TIME, a divinely appointed age. Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Each period of TIME is set by a Bible event and ends with another Bible event with the ending being the beginning of the next time frame.

    Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives:
    1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy and.......
    2) a distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.

    Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation, which means giving each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and this is in no way contrary to literal interpretation. Even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them.
  15. I do not see how Christians giving out of love to Christians in Iraq is a problem. It is not the fault of the giver but the act of stealing on the part of ISIS members that is the problem IMO.

    If a Christian gave to his church out of love for God a new TV set and then someone broke into the church and stole it in order to buy drugs, does not make that church member a supporter of a drug addict.
  16. It could also mean that the people buying such trinkets are very gullible and instead of having faith in God, they are placing hope in holy water, or a cross or a prayer rug etc. That is in fact "idolatry" and not faith in God.

    The Bible says that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin".
  17. #17 Man-ofGod, Oct 22, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
    I understand it. But where are the bible verses that show us that this method (the method used by dispensationalist) is how scripture is to be studied? For example, where does it say that we should split the application of scripture into different epochs? For me, I have to have a thus saith the Lord, and the interpretation cannot contain any speculation. Therefore, I believe the bible tells us exactly how to study it, w/ out relying on any man made created theological systems or ideas. This way, the people of God need not guess at anything.


  18. Not necessarily. If the person was an unbeliever when they first watched or had little knowledge of the bible this can be the beginning of their journey as a Christian and grow in knowledge of the Lord's will. Their faith in the trinkets doesn't heal them, their faith that the man of Christ sent this to them to be healed is what heals them. Jesus heals thru faith of one's own heart. Nobody, without a close relationship with the minister, can know if the minister is a fraud or not. But because we believe in Jesus we are saved.
  19. Now you already know that the teaching is not in the Scriptures.

    I as well as you accept and live by the literal Word of God and when the Bible says, "Thus saith the Lord", then that is what it is and there is no speculation to be had!!!

    Almost all of the people who I have spoken with who reject this teaching method really do not understand it so they reject it.
    Frankly, I do not care if anyone believes in the Dispensationalism method of studying the Bible or not. I do not say that to be argumentive at all.

    It was the method by which I was taught the Scriptures and personally I do not understand how anyone does not use it to grasp the Bible and its lesson....but that is just me and is not an indictment against you or anyone else. For me, it allows every single Bible doctrine to be understood and the prophetic Word to be properly placed in God's time frame.

    1 Cor 10:32 ........
    "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God".

    Ryrie summarizes:
    Dispensationalism views the world as a household run by God. In His household-world God is dispensing or administering its affairs according to his own will and in various stages of revelation in the passage of time. These various stages mark off the distinguishably different economies in the outworking of His total purpose, and these different economies constitute the dispensations. The understanding of God’s differing economies is essential to a proper interpretation of His revelation within those various economies.
  20. No problem. For me, I simply believe scripture is the key that unlocks scripture. This results in a proper understanding of revelation. But I respect your point of view as well. God Bless!

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