Men/Women in the Church

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kdm1984

Account Closed
Growing up, my family didn't emphasize the roles of men/women in the church very much. I WAS taught that the wife is submissive to the husband, and this topic came once in the 1990s when my dad and mom were discussing Scripture, and came to slightly different conclusions. Dad brought up this Scripture, Mom said okay, and they went on their studies.

The only other time I remember the topic coming up, was when there was some woman preaching/pastoring on the Word of God, and both Dad and Mom said that women shouldn't preach/pastor because things can get "weird." They were correct that women shouldn't preach/pastor, and the reason it's "weird" is because it actually violates the Word of God, where Paul teaches that men are to lead churches because they were first in the order of creation (1 Timothy 2).

When I got older, and became more involved in studying doctrine and interacting with other Christians outside my family, I noticed there was a lot more to this topic than I'd learned growing up. The brief two examples I saw, which were very straightforward, were just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this topic.

For starters, the submission passages are worth looking into with more depth. Wives are absolutely to be submissive to their husbands -- in the Lord. So when it comes to matters of doctrine, and there's a disagreement where both sides can have a reasonably differing perspective, the husband has the final say.

That said, women aren't to submit to sin. If the husband is clearly violating a Scriptural command, she submits to God and not unto men (Acts 5:29). God is our ultimate authority, then men, then women. So woman submits to man, UNLESS man is disobeying God. Otherwise, MAN would be the highest authority rather than God.

Thankfully this hasn't ever come up with my unbelieving husband. But if he were to ever say, "You can't worship Jesus, read the Bible, or go to church anymore," then it wouldn't be godly to submit to that.

I once saw this topic come up on a Doug Wilson blog and I was sad to see some people actually arguing that woman needs to obey man in all things, even if it's contrary to God. That doesn't make logical OR Biblical sense. We are to compare Scripture with Scripture. Yes, women generally submit to men, including in marriage, and including in pastoral matters. But the primary submission is to GOD. If there's a man teaching something contrary to God, then it's ridiculous to say the woman needs to submit to a sin rather than what GOD has decreed. Man is higher than woman, but he is NOT higher than God.

Another thing I see come up a lot in Christian circles, is the broader place of women in society. I've mentioned before that my mom was actually my dad's business boss back in the 1970s. I didn't grow up in what some call "patriarchal" Christianity, where some view women as not only subordinate in spiritual matters, but also in all other matters. I had some online Reformed friends in the 2010s who taught that daughters must serve their fathers, never go to college, never vote, and never work, because that was all "feminism," which they opposed from the first wave onward (a number of conservative Christians only oppose second wave feminism onward). This was VERY foreign to what my parents taught! My parents, both Father and Mother, encouraged college, voting, and working. They followed Ayn Rand individualism and thought it was best to raise children to be independent, both sons and daughters. My dad didn't even require me to do chores in the house, let alone be his "daughter servant." He and I were surprised to learn this is actually a thing among many other conservative Christians.

My parents also didn't have a lot of rules regarding male/female interactions. I remember when Mike Pence made headlines a few years ago for following the "Billy Graham rule." My dad was a huge admirer of Billy Graham, but he'd actually never heard of this rule. When I explained it to him, he thought it seemed a bit strict. He doesn't follow it. Dad doesn't even think dress codes are that big of an issue for men and women; when people protested indecency in the Super Bowl some years ago, he texted me with surprise and said, "These people sound like the people who protested Elvis in the 1950s." He thought it was a bit legalistic.

Nonetheless I've come across many sorts like this in the last decade.

My own rules, that I think more or less follow Scripture, are as follows:

1) No women pastors. 1 Timothy 2 uses the order of creation as a reason. This isn't something that "changes with the times."
2) Women submit to male leaders (pastors, husbands, etc.) UNLESS they teach something CLEARLY against the Word of God. God is first, not man.
3) I dress modestly even though my own family never really had rules for that.
4) I think 'first wave' feminism is ok -- college, jobs, and voting are ok for women to do, if it doesn't bother the men in their family. My dad and husband were ok with all those things, so I've done them at different points in my life.
5) I don't think LGBTQ is ok. I don't think men/women can truly "become" the other sex/gender, whether through operation or whatever. Hormones affect the brain from in utero onward, so even those who "transition" still maintain much of their birth sex no matter how much they try to "erase" it through man made procedures.
6) I think there are clear differences between men and women, and I think that the left tends to understate these, while occasionally the right overstates them (for example, I once debated with some conservatives who insisted it was IMPOSSIBLE for women to lust after men, visually and physically -- I had to ask Michelle Lesley about this, and their insistence that I couldn't struggle with such a thing led me to keep up a porn habit for MANY years: https://michellelesley.com/tag/women-lust/ )

I think that covers most things. If I missed anything important, let me know.
 
kdm1984 said:
Growing up, my family didn't emphasize the roles of men/women in the church very much. I WAS taught that the wife is submissive to the husband, and this topic came once in the 1990s when my dad and mom were discussing Scripture, and came to slightly different conclusions. Dad brought up this Scripture, Mom said okay, and they went on their studies.

The only other time I remember the topic coming up, was when there was some woman preaching/pastoring on the Word of God, and both Dad and Mom said that women shouldn't preach/pastor because things can get "weird." They were correct that women shouldn't preach/pastor, and the reason it's "weird" is because it actually violates the Word of God, where Paul teaches that men are to lead churches because they were first in the order of creation (1 Timothy 2).

When I got older, and became more involved in studying doctrine and interacting with other Christians outside my family, I noticed there was a lot more to this topic than I'd learned growing up. The brief two examples I saw, which were very straightforward, were just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this topic.

For starters, the submission passages are worth looking into with more depth. Wives are absolutely to be submissive to their husbands -- in the Lord. So when it comes to matters of doctrine, and there's a disagreement where both sides can have a reasonably differing perspective, the husband has the final say.

That said, women aren't to submit to sin. If the husband is clearly violating a Scriptural command, she submits to God and not unto men (Acts 5:29). God is our ultimate authority, then men, then women. So woman submits to man, UNLESS man is disobeying God. Otherwise, MAN would be the highest authority rather than God.

Thankfully this hasn't ever come up with my unbelieving husband. But if he were to ever say, "You can't worship Jesus, read the Bible, or go to church anymore," then it wouldn't be godly to submit to that.

I once saw this topic come up on a Doug Wilson blog and I was sad to see some people actually arguing that woman needs to obey man in all things, even if it's contrary to God. That doesn't make logical OR Biblical sense. We are to compare Scripture with Scripture. Yes, women generally submit to men, including in marriage, and including in pastoral matters. But the primary submission is to GOD. If there's a man teaching something contrary to God, then it's ridiculous to say the woman needs to submit to a sin rather than what GOD has decreed. Man is higher than woman, but he is NOT higher than God.

Another thing I see come up a lot in Christian circles, is the broader place of women in society. I've mentioned before that my mom was actually my dad's business boss back in the 1970s. I didn't grow up in what some call "patriarchal" Christianity, where some view women as not only subordinate in spiritual matters, but also in all other matters. I had some online Reformed friends in the 2010s who taught that daughters must serve their fathers, never go to college, never vote, and never work, because that was all "feminism," which they opposed from the first wave onward (a number of conservative Christians only oppose second wave feminism onward). This was VERY foreign to what my parents taught! My parents, both Father and Mother, encouraged college, voting, and working. They followed Ayn Rand individualism and thought it was best to raise children to be independent, both sons and daughters. My dad didn't even require me to do chores in the house, let alone be his "daughter servant." He and I were surprised to learn this is actually a thing among many other conservative Christians.

My parents also didn't have a lot of rules regarding male/female interactions. I remember when Mike Pence made headlines a few years ago for following the "Billy Graham rule." My dad was a huge admirer of Billy Graham, but he'd actually never heard of this rule. When I explained it to him, he thought it seemed a bit strict. He doesn't follow it. Dad doesn't even think dress codes are that big of an issue for men and women; when people protested indecency in the Super Bowl some years ago, he texted me with surprise and said, "These people sound like the people who protested Elvis in the 1950s." He thought it was a bit legalistic.

Nonetheless I've come across many sorts like this in the last decade.

My own rules, that I think more or less follow Scripture, are as follows:

1) No women pastors. 1 Timothy 2 uses the order of creation as a reason. This isn't something that "changes with the times."
2) Women submit to male leaders (pastors, husbands, etc.) UNLESS they teach something CLEARLY against the Word of God. God is first, not man.
3) I dress modestly even though my own family never really had rules for that.
4) I think 'first wave' feminism is ok -- college, jobs, and voting are ok for women to do, if it doesn't bother the men in their family. My dad and husband were ok with all those things, so I've done them at different points in my life.
5) I don't think LGBTQ is ok. I don't think men/women can truly "become" the other sex/gender, whether through operation or whatever. Hormones affect the brain from in utero onward, so even those who "transition" still maintain much of their birth sex no matter how much they try to "erase" it through man made procedures.
6) I think there are clear differences between men and women, and I think that the left tends to understate these, while occasionally the right overstates them (for example, I once debated with some conservatives who insisted it was IMPOSSIBLE for women to lust after men, visually and physically -- I had to ask Michelle Lesley about this, and their insistence that I couldn't struggle with such a thing led me to keep up a porn habit for MANY years: https://michellelesley.com/tag/women-lust/ )

I think that covers most things. If I missed anything important, let me know.
Click to expand...
Good posting!1689277030781.gif
 
Totally agree.

Quote from the site:-
Lust is a form of coveting – the greedy yearning to have something that God has not given to you or has given to someone else, and that is certainly not limited to men. Also notice in these passages that you can covet a person, and that coveting is often linked to sensuality or sexual immorality.
Click to expand...
Of course women can lust after a man. It’s not even funny.

The screaming fans of the Beatles or Elvis wasn’t crying over how great their music was. I do think that women lust is also just as predatory perhaps even more manipulative. We only have to look at queen Jezebel.
 
hmm according to 1 Timothy which was written for men...women are only good for childbearing if they are young they should marry, they shouldn't even be in church but stay home and look after the children

It doesn't say anything about an unmarried woman or women who can't bear children or decide not to (cos it may kill them...lots of women died in childbirth)

I come from a commonwealth country and we now have a King but before that we were under Queen Elizabeth 2 and she DID wear costly clothes, a crown in gold, pearls etc. She only ever got to be Queen because she had no brothers, her Uncle had abdicated and so her dad had to be monarch instead.

I think in an ideal world families always have eldest firstborn sons. But this is no always the case. So many families have only girls or eldest girls. I stayed with a christian homeschool family and they had 11 children, 10 children and the 9th was the only boy. They had to get wwoofers in (willing workers for free but got fed) because they couldn't afford to pay workers or work their girls on the farm. The girls would eventually marry.

I went to university at a time when, doctors were only just beginning to be women, and engineers. Before that no woman could gain a higher education. Degrees were only awarded to men - they named them Bachelors, and then Masters (not Spinsters, and Mistresses) and originally, they were not going to marry but live a life dedicated to their vocation. Hence BACHELORS.

Things have changed and women do it all study for a degree and also marry as well. But nowadays you can pay to do this all (it became privatised) before that the govt paid you to study if you were smart enough. I know many women would drop out of studies or workforce to marry and have children. Thats why workplaces used to not employ women and teachers used to always be unmarried women in primary schools, and junior schools. There were few female professors.

If World War 2 hadn't have happened and most of the male population not wiped out or injured etc...maybe we would still have a kind of ideal society where all women were looked after properly and cared for by men. But this is not the case.

In Islam, men and women are very much separated and have traditional gender roles BUT many women are not actually happy with this way of life. They don't want to be the 3rd, 4th or 5th wife of a King and beheaded if there is no male heir. In China, women's feet were bound so they couldn't do anything but look pretty for their husbands.
 
I can't really do anything about the way the world is, for me personally in Christ Jesus there is no male or female we are all one.

I can't do anything about how society has conditioned or placed me. When doctors say take this medicine and you have no choice you take it even though it says on the label "could cause birth defects' or you get told to take anti depressants and have to report to another doctor if you have suicidal thoughts out of fear you might sue them.

I can't really account for how men will come on to me even if they are married, in church, or in the workplace expecting sexual favours and expect me to be their prostitute. Just because I'm female. Or because I'm a certain ethnicity.

So anyway I pray and Jesus delivers me from the world and all its temptations, but I sometimes find no place in current day churches..and where everyone else is recovering from sin as well...in both traditionally conservative and extremely liberal churches. There's been male pastors who've been predatory and female pastors (pastor just means shepherd, so shepherdess) are often leaders of women's bible studies. Pastoral care just means looking after the flock, and all mums do that with their own children. But on farms, we know farmers mostly separate male and female until it's time for mating season. I don't know what happens in churches, I always thought they would have dances or things but they don't. I don't know how christians ever meet their mates these days. Every christian who's married I talk to met their mate on their own before they became christian, often just at a party.
 
women DO lust after men, in the Bible, this is what Pharoah's wife did with Joseph...the popularity of male peep shows and erotic fiction/romance attests to that (50 shades of grey etc) to deny that that happens or women are incapable of it seems a bit strange! In school girls would pine over the good-looking male teachers, and in workplaces I know some younger women would go for the older men, I mean it happens!
And then there's the Elizabeth Taylor/Cleopatra types...
It's probably just not as overt as the male predator type.

For christian women, our eyes are fixed on Jesus but thats not to say it can not be a temptation for those who aren't devoted to Him. I'd just say for most that we may not be aware of who we are attracting and what type of attraction that is. Coveting bodies, yes, most people don't look beyond the body. We are meant to be light and have attractive spirits, not just our physical outer bodies.

Girls would ask 'was Jesus attractive, did he have a ripped body' kind of thing but we know in scripture people females were not that especially attracted to Jesus body. He was not like a pop idol.
 
Last edited:
Lanolin said:
hmm according to 1 Timothy which was written for men...women are only good for childbearing if they are young they should marry, they shouldn't even be in church but stay home and look after the children
Click to expand...
your just a tad bit off in left field . women have a place in the Church ..they can speak they can vote.. God placed man the leader and the priest of the family if the man fails to be the priest of the family the wife steps in. ... we scream no women preachers.. just do a search of pastors men . there just are not that many so man needs to step up and do his job.
 
forgiven61 said:
your just a tad bit off in left field . women have a place in the Church ..they can speak they can vote.. God placed man the leader and the priest of the family if the man fails to be the priest of the family the wife steps in. ... we scream no women preachers.. just do a search of pastors men . there just are not that many so man needs to step up and do his job.
Click to expand...
I always thought women do it when men abdicate their responsibility...?
They speak but often they aren't heard, and they can vote but their votes doesn't seem to count as much (since they get outvoted) has been my experience of different churches.

The other thing is a lot of women are widowed and they may not marry again, and may need to lead their family still if they have got young ones. This happens when a war takes all your able young or married men...

Bathshebas problem was her husband was away fighting and David wasn't so he swooped in and stole her. Maybe if David had not been spying on her or her husband around that adultery would not have happened, cos I doubt that she was bathing in full view of everyone.
 
crossnote said:
I just have a hard time imagining Jezebel lusting after cry baby Ahab her hen pecked husband. (1Kings 21) Manipulative? Definitely!
Click to expand...
I think she was lusting after his position as King. Or coveting. You are either wanted for you looks or your money in most marriage transactions. How was King Solomon able to have 900 wives I don't know, but seems he could afford to do so....
 
At least we have the example of Deborah being a good judge when nobody else would step up.
I'm not sure how the Kings lineage in the OT worked or whether there were any Israelite Queens at all that hadn't married into the line, was it just a rule that only men could be Kings and women were wives but had no power.
What about Queen Sheba.

I always wondered what happened to Dinah since she was the only sister of 12 brothers. It was like she never counted. Her fiance was prepared to marry her and become an Israelite otherwise she would have married out and given up any inheritance to a foreigner, but her brothers put a stop to that and killed him. What if they'd let him marry her? Would there have been a 13th tribe?
 
I was thinking that I don't really have rules.
When I read the Bible, I think in terms of grace and what God has forgiven. He's forgiven much. He's seen everything and His son gave himself up for us. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as it won't be forgiven in this life or the next.

In heaven we won't be male or female...we'll be as angels, with whole souls..we won't have sexual immorality, because we won't be concerned with that. We may even be as children, who are innocent. Our bodies will be heavenly, not earthly.

We'll be saved from sin and there will be no crying. I think church is often a training ground for believers and its really hard for some to follow all the rules, especially all the Old covnenant ones that Jewish believers were imposing on Gentile believers. Eg men had to be circumcised was one.

I do know that believers are told to abstain from fornication - but that can be a hard thing to do if you are in an environment where its pretty much expected that this is what you do when you are an adult. TV had made it so that all that is now in people's living rooms for anyone to watch. However we can ask for deliverance from evil and to be led away from temptation. This might even mean --- not having a TV!

In many churches the pastors family is meant to be a good example to the rest of the flock but they don't impose a whole lot of rules on others or it become legalistic. Rather than a rule based, legalistic church I would seek out a church that emphasised fruits of the Holy Spirit against which is no law.
 
Lanolin said:
Maybe if David had not been spying on her or her husband around that adultery would not have happened, cos I doubt that she was bathing in full view of everyone.
Click to expand...
she bathed on the roof top i am fairly sure the kings palace over looked the area folks lived. David sinned it cost him dearly . in todays world just go to Walmart you can see about anything you want. even the local water park ive seen women barely have a band aid covering them
 
Lanolin said:
I was thinking that I don't really have rules.
When I read the Bible, I think in terms of grace and what God has forgiven. He's forgiven much. He's seen everything and His son gave himself up for us. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as it won't be forgiven in this life or the next.

In heaven we won't be male or female...we'll be as angels, with whole souls..we won't have sexual immorality, because we won't be concerned with that. We may even be as children, who are innocent. Our bodies will be heavenly, not earthly.

We'll be saved from sin and there will be no crying. I think church is often a training ground for believers and its really hard for some to follow all the rules, especially all the Old covnenant ones that Jewish believers were imposing on Gentile believers. Eg men had to be circumcised was one.

I do know that believers are told to abstain from fornication - but that can be a hard thing to do if you are in an environment where its pretty much expected that this is what you do when you are an adult. TV had made it so that all that is now in people's living rooms for anyone to watch. However we can ask for deliverance from evil and to be led away from temptation. This might even mean --- not having a TV!

In many churches the pastors family is meant to be a good example to the rest of the flock but they don't impose a whole lot of rules on others or it become legalistic. Rather than a rule based, legalistic church I would seek out a church that emphasised fruits of the Holy Spirit against which is no law.
Click to expand...
My Reformed friends had a rule where they had no TV :)

In Lutheran thought, grace predominates. The only rules we focus on a lot are keeping the 10 Commandments. Reformed seem to emphasize the third use of the law more, so their groups always came across as more law or rule oriented to me.

I mentioned in another thread that approximately 90% of Americans engage in premarital sex (fornication). It's been seen as the "norm" in society since the 1960s and the sexual revolution. I grew up in the 1990s and 2000s not knowing it was wrong. My parents literally didn't think it was wrong (though they themselves were married).
 
kdm1984 said:
Growing up, my family didn't emphasize the roles of men/women in the church very much. I WAS taught that the wife is submissive to the husband, and this topic came once in the 1990s when my dad and mom were discussing Scripture, and came to slightly different conclusions. Dad brought up this Scripture, Mom said okay, and they went on their studies.

The only other time I remember the topic coming up, was when there was some woman preaching/pastoring on the Word of God, and both Dad and Mom said that women shouldn't preach/pastor because things can get "weird." They were correct that women shouldn't preach/pastor, and the reason it's "weird" is because it actually violates the Word of God, where Paul teaches that men are to lead churches because they were first in the order of creation (1 Timothy 2).

When I got older, and became more involved in studying doctrine and interacting with other Christians outside my family, I noticed there was a lot more to this topic than I'd learned growing up. The brief two examples I saw, which were very straightforward, were just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this topic.

For starters, the submission passages are worth looking into with more depth. Wives are absolutely to be submissive to their husbands -- in the Lord. So when it comes to matters of doctrine, and there's a disagreement where both sides can have a reasonably differing perspective, the husband has the final say.

That said, women aren't to submit to sin. If the husband is clearly violating a Scriptural command, she submits to God and not unto men (Acts 5:29). God is our ultimate authority, then men, then women. So woman submits to man, UNLESS man is disobeying God. Otherwise, MAN would be the highest authority rather than God.

Thankfully this hasn't ever come up with my unbelieving husband. But if he were to ever say, "You can't worship Jesus, read the Bible, or go to church anymore," then it wouldn't be godly to submit to that.

I once saw this topic come up on a Doug Wilson blog and I was sad to see some people actually arguing that woman needs to obey man in all things, even if it's contrary to God. That doesn't make logical OR Biblical sense. We are to compare Scripture with Scripture. Yes, women generally submit to men, including in marriage, and including in pastoral matters. But the primary submission is to GOD. If there's a man teaching something contrary to God, then it's ridiculous to say the woman needs to submit to a sin rather than what GOD has decreed. Man is higher than woman, but he is NOT higher than God.

Another thing I see come up a lot in Christian circles, is the broader place of women in society. I've mentioned before that my mom was actually my dad's business boss back in the 1970s. I didn't grow up in what some call "patriarchal" Christianity, where some view women as not only subordinate in spiritual matters, but also in all other matters. I had some online Reformed friends in the 2010s who taught that daughters must serve their fathers, never go to college, never vote, and never work, because that was all "feminism," which they opposed from the first wave onward (a number of conservative Christians only oppose second wave feminism onward). This was VERY foreign to what my parents taught! My parents, both Father and Mother, encouraged college, voting, and working. They followed Ayn Rand individualism and thought it was best to raise children to be independent, both sons and daughters. My dad didn't even require me to do chores in the house, let alone be his "daughter servant." He and I were surprised to learn this is actually a thing among many other conservative Christians.

My parents also didn't have a lot of rules regarding male/female interactions. I remember when Mike Pence made headlines a few years ago for following the "Billy Graham rule." My dad was a huge admirer of Billy Graham, but he'd actually never heard of this rule. When I explained it to him, he thought it seemed a bit strict. He doesn't follow it. Dad doesn't even think dress codes are that big of an issue for men and women; when people protested indecency in the Super Bowl some years ago, he texted me with surprise and said, "These people sound like the people who protested Elvis in the 1950s." He thought it was a bit legalistic.

Nonetheless I've come across many sorts like this in the last decade.

My own rules, that I think more or less follow Scripture, are as follows:

1) No women pastors. 1 Timothy 2 uses the order of creation as a reason. This isn't something that "changes with the times."
2) Women submit to male leaders (pastors, husbands, etc.) UNLESS they teach something CLEARLY against the Word of God. God is first, not man.
3) I dress modestly even though my own family never really had rules for that.
4) I think 'first wave' feminism is ok -- college, jobs, and voting are ok for women to do, if it doesn't bother the men in their family. My dad and husband were ok with all those things, so I've done them at different points in my life.
5) I don't think LGBTQ is ok. I don't think men/women can truly "become" the other sex/gender, whether through operation or whatever. Hormones affect the brain from in utero onward, so even those who "transition" still maintain much of their birth sex no matter how much they try to "erase" it through man made procedures.
6) I think there are clear differences between men and women, and I think that the left tends to understate these, while occasionally the right overstates them (for example, I once debated with some conservatives who insisted it was IMPOSSIBLE for women to lust after men, visually and physically -- I had to ask Michelle Lesley about this, and their insistence that I couldn't struggle with such a thing led me to keep up a porn habit for MANY years: https://michellelesley.com/tag/women-lust/ )

I think that covers most things. If I missed anything important, let me know.
Click to expand...
Long post but a good one. You are Biblically sound.

1. Women are not allowed to be Pastors in the church and the Scriptures you used are very clear!
2. The submissiveness of wives to their husbands is for Responsibility of the family. The Husband is the Federal Head of the family.
3. That is excellent advice. Temptation is the beginning of sin in others.
4. Agreed. Women should be paid just as a man and they should vote as their opinions are just as valid as a mans.
5. LGBTQRBTSHK is all based in Homosexuality which is clearly condemned by God.
6. LOL!........My wife still thinks I am cute and sexy after 55 years together.
 
kdm1984 said:
I once saw this topic come up on a Doug Wilson blog and I was sad to see some people actually arguing that woman needs to obey man in all things, even if it's contrary to God. That doesn't make logical OR Biblical sense. We are to compare Scripture with Scripture. Yes, women generally submit to men, including in marriage, and including in pastoral matters. But the primary submission is to GOD. If there's a man teaching something contrary to God, then it's ridiculous to say the woman needs to submit to a sin rather than what GOD has decreed. Man is higher than woman, but he is NOT higher than God. My own rules, that I think more or less follow Scripture, are as follows:
1) No women pastors. 1 Timothy 2 uses the order of creation as a reason. This isn't something that "changes with the times."
2) Women submit to male leaders (pastors, husbands, etc.) UNLESS they teach something CLEARLY against the Word of God. God is first, not man.
3) I dress modestly even though my own family never really had rules for that.
4) I think 'first wave' feminism is ok -- college, jobs, and voting are ok for women to do, if it doesn't bother the men in their family. My dad and husband were ok with all those things, so I've done them at different points in my life.
5) I don't think LGBTQ is ok. I don't think men/women can truly "become" the other sex/gender, whether through operation or whatever. Hormones affect the brain from in utero onward, so even those who "transition" still maintain much of their birth sex no matter how much they try to "erase" it through man made procedures.
6) I think there are clear differences between men and women, and I think that the left tends to understate these, while occasionally the right overstates them (for example, I once debated with some conservatives who insisted it was IMPOSSIBLE for women to lust after men, visually and physically -- I had to ask Michelle Lesley about this, and their insistence that I couldn't struggle with such a thing led me to keep up a porn habit for MANY years: https://michellelesley.com/tag/women-lust/ )
Click to expand...

Major said:
Long post but a good one. You are Biblically sound.
1. Women are not allowed to be Pastors in the church and the Scriptures you used are very clear!
2. The submissiveness of wives to their husbands is for Responsibility of the family. The Husband is the Federal Head of the family.
3. That is excellent advice. Temptation is the beginning of sin in others.
4. Agreed. Women should be paid just as a man and they should vote as their opinions are just as valid as a mans.
5. LGBTQRBTSHK is all based in Homosexuality which is clearly condemned by God.
6. LOL!........My wife still thinks I am cute and sexy after 55 years together.
Click to expand...

Hello kdm1984;

I have heard it said that wives need to obey their husband. I have read Biblically and practice that wives are to submit to their husbands.

I don't care nor practice semantics. They are often misused in Christian conversation that doesn't promote accord but exposes a lack of proper learning and application of the Scriptures.

In this case there is a difference between obey and submission. Submission is an attitude by the prompting of the Spirit of being led to follow the will of another. Obedience involves a choice of free will or not from one toward the other.

In Genesis 3:16b, 16b Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

The wife's challenge by embracing and supporting the husband’s role as leader of their home and family was established in the beginning by God before the fall.

In Ephesians 5:22-24, 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

The discipline of wife (woman) and husband (man) was ordained by God. This is why the ramifications of same sex partners for both does not expose the shameful, dark secrets of disobedience toward God behind closed doors.

Throughout the Bible women such as Eve, Elizabeth, Naomi and Ruth, Esther, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, Phoebe, Lydia and many were anointed by God in their appointed roles, but nowhere does Scripture reveal that women were pastors.

"Yes, but, or, if you get perspective of this Passage," STOP IT! Sadly, the ordination of women pastors in Christian Churches defy the Truth and spin the Scriptures to justify serving in the pastoral ministry. This has led to female pastors marrying their same sex partners, in the Church!

My wife and I are marriage partners. In our day to day marriage we discuss decisions that will benefit each other, our home and family giving glory to God. I trust my wife's decisions and she doesn't need my permission. She trusts my decisions, submit and have my back when it came down to the major decisions. In both we have made some bonehead mistakes, yet we still supported each other during the setbacks. God allows the consequences of our decisions but He also takes us through the lessons and makes a way out.

But what about the responsibility of the husband? I made a promise to my wife that whether she be a stay at home wife or establish her work career I would take care and support her no matter what. In America there is always a condition about affordability. Poo-poo to that!

If we truly believe God orchestrated our marriage He has always provided and does what's best for us. There were those early years when we were flat broke. There were those years when we had plenty. There were those years one or both of us failed each other miserably. There were those years, instead of quitting and getting a divorce, we sought a Christian, licensed, marriage counselor. Twice. It sucked but God got us through it. There were times in our marriage we had to reset.

This is where the "obey part" comes in with our relationship with God, and choosing to follow Jesus daily. So when we started going to Church together in our newlywed year, we had no idea that one day I would be called to become a pastor and she would take on the role of a pastor's wife. She was stressed and opened up during a pastors/wife conference, "I don't know if I can be a pastor's wife?!?" The response from a seasoned spiritual mother, "Hazel, just be yourself. That's what God would expect."

This is my personal story and experience from ministering to other couples prior to marriage, during and sadly, after their marriage.

How you understand your role in your marriage can go a long way with your role in the Church.

God bless you all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top