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Life After People

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Dec 6, 2014.

  1. #1 Phoneman777, Dec 6, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
    Though the three most popular end time scenarios, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Post-Trib, differ greatly one from another, there is a common thread that ties them all together: there is continuous human activity on Earth all throughout the unfolding of end time events.

    The OT prophets often co-mingling predictions of end time events with that which was applicable to ancient Israel, so we must be careful to differentiate between the two. Moreover, we should never involuntarily dismiss as pertaining to ancient Israel that which God intended to apply to our day just because we cannot find a place for it in our popular end time thinking.

    Jeremiah 4:23-28 describes the destruction of the Earth “at the “presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger”:
    • "without form and void"
    • "heavens (with) no light"
    • "trembling mountains"
    • "moving hills"
    • “having "NO MAN"
    • all the birds were fled
    • "fruitful place a wilderness"
    • "all the cities broken down"
    (This same Jeremiah says in chapter 25:33 that "the slain of the Lord in that day shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, nor gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung on the ground.")

    Isaiah 24:1-6; 19,20 describes the same destruction of the Earth as:
    • "empty"
    • "waste"
    • "upside down"
    • "utterly emptied"
    • "spoiled"
    • "fade away"
    • "languish"
    • "devoured"
    • "desolate"
    • "utterly broken down"
    • "clean dissolved
    • "moved exceedingly"
    • "reel to and fro like a drunkard"
    • "fall and not rise"
    The Bible speaks explicitly of an end time Earth as having absolutely no human activity whatsover. We cannot dismiss these predictions of a destroyed Creation as past history, but we also cannot harmonize them with the most popular end time scenarios either. We also cannot argue that the Isaiah's "few men left" remain on Earth, for this same Isaiah says the Earth is "utterly emptied".

    Therefore, any end time scenario which claims continuous, unceasing human activity on the Earth is simply not in alignment with Scripture, and should be abandoned, no matter how cherished they may be to us.
  2. Can you then explain 2 Peter 3:10-13
    "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

    Isn't Peter telling us to look beyond this present world which apparently will end in some kind of holocaust with fire TO A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH.

    Then there is Rev. 21:9-10
    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God".

    It seems to me that IF the New Jerusalem DESENDS out of heaven, it must be coming down to something. WHAT could that be??????????

    Rev. 21:24
    24" And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

    BOOM! Nations mean people and people mean praise to God. The Bride of Christ will be on display for all eternity.

    I encourage you to read again the Scriptures and pray about your opinion. IMO there seems to be a problem with either the Scriptures or your opinion.
    Silk likes this.
  3. I
    I'm afraid the only problem seems to be your ability to understand what my posted Scriptures have so easily made plain:

    There is coming a period of time which is after our present Earth but prior to the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth in which planet Earth will be as Isaiah and Jeremiah describe it above: COMPLETELY DESTROYED AND UNINHABITED.

    If you presently hold to any spectacular eschatological interpretations that don't include an Earth that is completely destroyed, utterly emptied, desolate, with no man, then I would advise you, dear brother, to skip praying about them and just go ahead and abandon them, because spectacular error will never equal truth, no matter how much we pray. :)
  4. You did not address the Scriptures I posted that disagree with your opinion.

    Shall we try again????

    Now the most important point to consider here is that the New Heaven and Earth came into existence on the Day of Pentecost by the baptism of fire or the Holy Spirit, which was not observed by those that did not have eyes to see. This invisible, spiritual operation had to occur first before any physical fire could allegedly burn up the physical heavens and earth. Thus, when Isaiah wrote verses you quoted, they have usually been misinterpreted.
    “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind (Isa. 65:17; see Isa. 66:22).”

    Here it appears that Isaiah is prophesying of a physical New Heaven and Earth, but the Apostle Paul gave the true interpretation of this prophecy after the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire. He wrote the following which explains the new creature:
    “Therefore if any man be in the Messiah (Christ), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Cor 5:17).”

    The Messiah confirmed this with His own words. He knew that the New Heaven and Earth the prophets referred to symbolized a spiritual regeneration or a spiritual rebirth.

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, (John 3:3).”

    If YOU still have any doubts that this new creature is spiritual and not physical, Ezekiel wrote the following about Israel’s transformation.

    “Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel (Ezk. 18:31)?”

    Finally, the Apostle John’s vision in Revelation 21:1-5 states: (From my original response to your opinion)
    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and Elohim (God) himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful .”

    This New Heaven and Earth begins with the spiritual regeneration of mankind’s soul first and later there will follow a transformation of the physical earth. The natural always reflects the spiritual (Rom. 1:19-20).

    IF there is to be absolutely no life and all things are going to be desolate as your say, here again is another Scripture that YOU neeed to explain to all of us.

    1 Cor. 15:51-53..........
    He said: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality .”

    Is Paul lieing when He said.........."and this mortal must put on immortality .”

    Is there another definition of IMMORTALITY?
  5. #5 Phoneman777, Dec 7, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
    Brother, thank you for your thoughts, but we'll have to agree not to agree. In the New Heaven and Earth, righteousness and Sabbath keepers dwell there, not a sin-filled church and Sunday observance which is what we still have here
  6. We don't have a lot of clarity towards the End end... Most people cannot grasp in their minds that our universe as we know it is an "Electrical simulation" with the vast bulk even of "Things" consisting of empty space... Something like 99.999999999% of the volume of every atom is just empty space....

    Honestly, very few of us have no idea how to even imagine a creation that is not at least somewhat fallen and bound to decay.... When you start working through it - you can't even imagine the consequences of what it would be like...

    What I worry more about is the shorter term... Say for example - when God decides the measure of the church is "Full"... Then what? I have this sneaking suspicion that just as the Jews were totally taken by surprise and had no idea that God's program was changing (AKA the end of the Law and the Prophets as declared by Jesus)... What about us? Will we be able to discern that God is doing something new - and that we can get on board or we can be left behind....

    I mean - the whole Gentile church that was NOT Jews - The scriptures didn't really have much on that besides a few lines here and there as a hint that God would take out a people from the nations for His own Name and the symbolism of gentile brides....... I guarantee that even the Faithful Jews were not expecting it to shake out as it did...

  7. Thanks John. I think the key to understanding both Salvation and the End Times is found in the OT Sanctuary:

    "They way, O Lord, is in the Sanctuary".
    "For I was envious of the foolish when I say the prosperity of the wicked...until I went into the Sanctuary of God; then understood I there end."

    You may be shocked to discover that the warning heard so often that "JESUS IS COMING SOON" was adopted by the whole of Christendom less than 100 years ago:

    The Great Religious Awakening happened around the end of the 19th century when all over the world men began studying the Book of Daniel and the Prophecy of the 2300 days. "Unto 2300 days then shall the SANCTUARY be cleansed" led many people from all different denominations to conclude that Jesus was coming in 1844. They based the starting point of the prophecy on "the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel unto Messiah the Prince" given in Ezra by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C., and counted 2300 years down to 1844. The whole of Christendom rejected this and disfellowshipped anyone preaching this because the prevailing wisdom was that Jesus would not return until after the "millennium of peace" upon which they believed they were entering would be over. After what became to be known as the Great Disappointment occurred when Jesus did not return, their mistake was made clear: They wrongly assumed the Earth was the Sanctuary that would be cleansed with fire after 2300 days, when no where in the Bible does it refer to the Earth as such. They discovered the Heavenly Sanctuary and the High Priestly ministry of Jesus that He had been officiating over. By looking back at the OT Sanctuary "PATTERN shown thee in the mount", the key to understanding Present Truth was discovered. In 1844, just as the high priest in the Earthly Sanctuary moved from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement which was the Day of Judgment, our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary did the same in 1844 and is now ministering before the Father, finishing up His work of Intercession and Judgment. When He is finished, He will exit that Sanctuary, remove His priestly robes and don His kingly robes, and come for us the Second Time.

    As the few began preaching this message of Jesus' soon return, much opposition to it arose. But Billy Graham began to preach that Jesus is coming soon, though he did not accept the reasons given by those before him, and now it is heard everywhere.

    As the message that Jesus was coming soon
  8. #8 Major, Dec 9, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
    Once again you failed to post the Scriptures you used. That means you are leaving it up to us to respond to something that may or may not be what you were trying to say.

    I think you were using Daniel 8:14.......
    "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred DAYS, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed".

    I do not know what you are trying to explain in your comments of post #7 but somehow you have inserted YEARS where the Scriptures clearly say DAYS and then you say that the end is calculated to be 1844 by some way. 457 to 1844 is certainly NOT 2300 DAYS. It is not even 23oo years.

    So then what is the correct understanding?????Just so that all who read what we say, and we are clear.......when one reads Daniel 8 it becomes clear that the "little horn" was a king by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes. He ruled from Syria and persecuted the Jews from 171-165 BC. He came out of the four generals that took over after Alaxander the Great died. He is NOT "THE" anti-Christ but is an example of what the coming antichrist will be like.

    The Maccabe family led a revolt against him and were able to reestablish their own sovereignty in the Holy Land by 165 BC.

    Antiochus desecrated the temple and defiled it by offering a pig on the Jewish alter. Then Daniel asks HOW LONG would the desolation go on with the disruption of the daily sacrifice.

    The answer is in verse 14......2300 DAYS or 6 1/2 years. Theories and opinions that transform these DAYS into YEARS depart radically from both literal hermaeneutics and sound Biblical interpretation.

    Verse 14 of Daniel 8 then says........"THEN shall the sanctuary be cleansed".

    That has no reference to a heavenly temple but clearly goes back to the actual Jewish Temple cleansing that took place in 165 BC by the Maccabee family. That took place on the 25th day of Chislev or the Jewish month of December. That cleaning has been celebrated every year after that by the Jews as the Feast of Dedication which is also called Hanukkah today.
  9. Major, prophetic symbols are to be interpreted. One prophetic day = one literal year.

    As far as Antiochus Epiphanes being the "little horn", set aside your "historical factoids" which you think prove your position and consider these 12 reasons why this absolutely, positively cannot be the case:

  10. We are once again going to be in disagreement Phoneman. Do you really think that I sat down and put that explination to you because I am that smart. My friend, I read and consume the historical accounts of humanity. My dear friend...... History is not open for "interpretation".
    Actual events in History is what has happened and is not open for what YOU want it to say. IT is what it is and if YOU choose to reject it, then there is nothing more I can add.

    I would however encourage you to consider some books on actual history that confirm exactly what I posted. Plus a good reading of Daniel would be helpful as Daniel himself explaines what he says for us.

    Daniel's vision ..............
    The eighth chapter gives details concerning the second and third world-kingdoms: the silver and brass kingdoms of Dan. 2.; the bear and leopard kingdoms of Dan. 7., viz., the Medo-Persian and Macedonian kingdoms of history. At the time of this vision ( Daniel 8:1 ) the first monarchy was nearing its end. Belshazzar was the last king of that monarchy.

    Third Year
    About B.C. 530. This is real time historical time my brother and has NOTHING to do with a prophetic year!!!
    "Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. "

    The Ram

    Daniel 8:20.....
    "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia."

    "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    THEM were the four generals of Alaxander The Great who took over after he died. Historical fact!!!

    The Little Horn

    The "little horn" here is a prophecy fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes, B.C. 175. Again, this is a historical fact. HE profaned the temple and terribly persecuted the Jews. He is not to be confounded with the "little horn" of Dan. 7.... who is yet to come, and who will dominate the earth during the great tribulation. (See "Daniel 7:8") concerning "The Beast". That beast will come up out of the 10 nation re-vived Roman Empire.

    But Antiochus is a remarkable type of the Beast, the terrible "little horn" of the last days.

    Verses 24,25 of Dan. 8 go beyond Antiochus and refer to the "little horn" of Dan. 7. Both Antiochus and the Beast, but the Beast pre-eminently, are in view in verses 24,25. That the "little horn" of Dan. 7. cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8:9-13 Daniel 8:23 is evident. The former comes up among the ten horns into which the fourth empire (Roman) is to be divided; the little horn of Dan. 8. comes out of one of the four kingdoms into which the third (Grecian) empire was divided ( Daniel 8:23 ), and in "the latter time" of the four kingdoms Daniel 8:22 Daniel 8:23 ). This was historically true of Antiochus Epiphanes. They are alike in hatred of the Jews and of God, and in profaning the temple.

    One of them Anticohus Epiphanes came out of Syria, one of the "four notable" kingdoms into which Alexander's empire was divided.
    Silk likes this.
    Major likes this.
  12. #12 Major, Dec 10, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
    And from your suggested web site .....here I what destroys the whole opinion you are espousing.

    "4) The phrase (or “Term”) “Little Horn” is only used in Daniel 7:8 and 8:9. Daniel uses the same exact references to the “Little Horn” in Daniel 8:9 as he does in Daniel 7:8 – we must conclude that Daniel is referring to the SAME “Little Horn” spoken of in Daniel 7:8 – which can clearly be identified as ROMAN – not Greecian, or Medo-Persian!"

    You are trying to make the Catholic Church out to be the "little horn". Correct????

    You are placing your understanding on someone else's "CONCLUETION" and not your own. I would encourage you to do your own studies and relay less on those who post such things on the internet.

    The above statement is completely in error. Daniel's own words prove it. The "Little horn" of Daniel 7:8 and 8:9 are TWO different individuals.

    Again.......Daniel 8:9 ......
    And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

    Daniel 7:8.........
    I considered the horns ( The horns represent ten kings-ref Rev 17:12; Dan 7:24. These ten horns grow out of the fourth beast; they represent the Roman Empire nations.)
    AND, BEHOLD, THERE CAME UP AMONG THEM ANOTHER LITTLE HORN. The little horn is the Antichrist, which comes up among the ten kings (or nations).

    Daniel 8:7-9........
    "And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
    8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.(These were the FOR generals of Alexander the Great).
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

    The reference is sufficiently obvious so as to be Antiochus. The description is accurate; he sprang from one of the four horns or dynasties that succeeded the great conqueror....Alexander!
  13. #13 Phoneman777, Dec 10, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
    Bro, perhaps you aren't aware of these historical facts concerning Daniel's prophecy and Antiochus Epiphanes:

    > "Them" is a masculine pronoun, the noun "Winds" is either masculine or feminine, and the noun "Horns" is feminine. It's called Hebrew noun/pronoun gender agreement, of which your position is in complete violation. Checkmate, game over.

    You can see that the little horn can only come out of one of the four winds, not one of the four "horns" divisions of Greece.

    (Though completely unnecessary at this point, here's some lagniappe for you:)

    > Antiochus was not "exceeding great" beyond the "very great" horn mentioned, which refers to Alexander the Great. Antiochus was a chump.
    • He didn't expand his kingdom.
    • His own people hated him and called him "Epimanes" (mad man).
    • The old, wrinkled Roman ambassador Laenas single handedly turned back Epimanes and his entire army by blocking his path of attack on Egypt, demanding that he return home, and after drawing a circle around Epimanes in the dust, he demanded an answer before he stepped out of the circle, after which Epimanes with tail tucked between his legs agreed to leave. WHAT A CHUMP.
    • Historians at best consider him "exceedingly mediocre".
    > The "little horn" was to rise in the "latter time" of the reign of the four horns, but Epimanes took the throne as the EIGHT of TWENTY FOUR or so Seleucid kings. Did he arise during the "latter time" of those kings? No, the chump did not.

    There are other reasons why Epimanes cannot be the "little horn" and I suggest you set aside your affinity for Jesuit Futurism and study those reasons, otherwise you'll be just another ill-informed Jesuit Futurist.
  14. As a SDV you really have no other option than to follow what you have been taught to believe. I however go beyond the borders of any denominational dogma to find the truth of the Scriptures. It really is that simple and that is the reason you and I disagree.

    The great majority of Bible scholars over the years have warned against confusing the "little horn" of Daniel 7 with the "little horn" of Daniel 8. Nevertheless, many continue to confuse them, and thus become involved in irreconcilable difficulties which is exactly what you have allowed to happen to you by following SDA dogma.

    Everyone agrees that the first beast is Babylon, but he SDA and the preterist interpretation identifies the second and third beast of Daniel 7 as Media and then Persia. That is the ERROR. Daniel clearly says that the succeeding world powers will be........
    1. Babylon
    2. Medo-Persia (ONE)
    3. Greece
    4. Rome

    The Preterist/SDA say that it is
    1. Babylon
    2. Medo
    3. Persia
    4. Greece

    This understanding however, falls apart on numerous grounds, including the lack of historical data to warrant that separation of Media and Persia into two successive kingdoms. It just is not there to be able to do what is being told to you.

    In contrast, consider the support for the interpretation of Daniel 7 as being Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome can be found in the interpretation of the ram in Daniel 8. Its two disproportionate horns are specifically identified as the kings of Media and Persia together (vs. 20), reflective of the duality found in the prophet’s view of the bear in Daniel 7, which was raised up one side (Daniel 7:5).

    Meanwhile, the three-directional nature of the ram’s conquests (Daniel 8:4) also parallels the three ribs depicted in the mouth of the bear (Daniel 7:5), since it expanded to the north (Lydia), to the west (Babylon), and to the south (Egypt), an accurate description of the Media-Persian expansion.

    Thus, if in Daniel 7 Media-Persia is the second beast, and Greece the third, then the nondescript beast, the fourth beast in the prophecy, must represent Rome, the great power that arose after Greece. Therefore, the little horn that came from this fourth beast cannot represent Antiochus IV, who arose prior to, and not after, Rome. The only other option is that he came out of the Grecian power vacuum of the 4 men who replaced Alexander.

    Your comments are in agreement with the " http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q28.htm" web site.(Seventh Day Adventist).

    I encourage you to do your own home work Phoneman and try to do some studies outside of the SDA doctrines and web sites.
    Silk likes this.
  15. Major, we are waiting for you to show how the Masculine pronoun "THEM" can refer to the Feminine noun.
  16. It's a linguistic principle called markedness. The inconsistency of gender agreement in this passage is well known, so reliance on gender agreement for meaning is unlikely to produce a strong argument. From the articles I've read on the passage, generally scholars assume the inconsistency of gender agreement in the passage in itself is meaningful, rather than attempting to insist on meaning through usual gender agreement.

    But I'm no scholar. I can point you toward a few articles if you'd like to examine them.
  17. #17 Silk, Dec 12, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2014
    The answer and counterarguments to your stances are almost all found in the study of Daniel. I recommend all the study chapters but because of the current posts - Here is Daniel 7 & 8.

  18. Thanks Silk, but Id prefer if you'd just explain them to me.
  19. Thanks, Roads. Keep in mind that the majority of scholars are Futurists which is a major determining factor in what they assume is reliable and not. If we lay aside assumptions and just read the text as it is, instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round, then a different picture emerges.

    The majority of scholars also assume to the point of embarrassment that Epimanes the Chump who never even expanded his own borders was "exceeding great" beyond the "very great" Alexander the Great, although Alexander the Great sat down at the age of only 32 and wept because he had run out of world to conquer. It was Alexander the Great, not Epimanes the Chump, who awoke from his sleep only to see that the peculiar dressed men of whom he'd just dreamed were approaching from the walls of Jerusalem with scrolls from the book of Daniel to tell him of his greatness, which pleased him so that he turned aside from his intentions to flatten city.
  20. See Roads response in comment #16.

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