Learning Genesis

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You've proven nothing in reality have you.

I'll ask again - If evolution, carbon dating, argon dating, speed of light, age of the earth etc.. are all rubbish what exactly are those bones telling you?

If everything you've read about Lucy is complete and utter rubbish (as you are hinting at). What is that animal who's bones we call Lucy in your opinion?
I want to go back to something Abdicate said that you didn't answer. Talking about reality, it is absurd to me that people could really believe evolution existed since where is the evidence of stages. You are hanging on one piece of "so called" evidence that could be anything, yet you are not responding to the question of how if everything evolved where is the evidence of stages of everything and why has no change been show among animals and creatures in recorded time.

Why are you not answering this question? I can't understand how any rational person can avoid this question.
 
And that is the sum total of your curiosity? You really don't care to think about it any further yet dismiss years of research with the stroke of a finger on a keyboard?

It is most definately not a chimpanzee.

Probably time to get this thread back onto Genesis.
I've thought about it, read about it, it looks like a chimp. Simple enough. I'm not desperate to find a missing link.

I agree, let's get back to Genesis. I'm starting to get disappointed with your logic and reasoning skills. I joined in on this thread because I enjoy reading your comments for the most part. But now that you won't face the truth that evolutionists have lied, your skepticism is overpowering your discernment.
 
You've proven nothing in reality have you.

I'll ask again - If evolution, carbon dating, argon dating, speed of light, age of the earth etc.. are all rubbish what exactly are those bones telling you?

If everything you've read about Lucy is complete and utter rubbish (as you are hinting at). What is that animal who's bones we call Lucy in your opinion?
Animal species have become extinct in our lifetime. If this Lucy monkey species existed isn't it a real possibility that it went extinct like other creatures?
 
I want to go back to something Abdicate said that you didn't answer. Talking about reality, it is absurd to me that people could really believe evolution existed since where is the evidence of stages. You are hanging on one piece of "so called" evidence that could be anything, yet you are not responding to the question of how if everything evolved where is the evidence of stages of everything and why has no change been show among animals and creatures in recorded time.

Why are you not answering this question? I can't understand how any rational person can avoid this question.

I have answered this previously in the thread.

The fossil record is obviously incomplete, the conditions for fossils to be laid down and preserved are a rare event (not every living thing has the honour of being fossilised). The further back in time we go, the less likely it is we find them.

There are numerous fossils of our recent ancestors if you care to look hard enough but there will never be every 'single stage'. If someone unearthed my father in a thousand years time they would find no difference between his remains and mine, the same for my grandfather and his father and his father...

100 generations ago my ancient Egyptian ancestors or Romans or wherever I came from would still look like me as skeletal remains.
When we look at my ancestor from 1000 generations back there would be slight differences but still very similar. If we went back 10,000 generations it would be different again in subtle skeletal features but still recognisable as my ancestor. Go back 200,000 generations and we look markedly different and something resembling Lucy. There are examples recovered throughout this period.

Based on this description, how many fossil specimens would you want to see to prove the lineage of our evolutionary tree, every single one of those 200,000 bodies?

So Olivia, what exactly do those bones of Lucy mean to you, anything or nothing?
 
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I have answered this previously in the thread.

The fossil record is obviously incomplete, the conditions for fossils to be laid down and preserved are a rare event (not every living thing has the honour of being fossilised). The further back in time we go, the less likely it is we find them.

There are numerous fossils of our recent ancestors if you care to look hard enough but there will never be every 'single stage'. If someone unearthed my father in a thousand years time they would find no difference between his remains and mine, the same for my grandfather and his father and his father...

100 generations ago my ancient Egyptian ancestors or Romans or wherever I came from would still look like me as skeletal remains.
When we look at my ancestor from 1000 generations back there would be slight differences but still very similar. If we went back 10,000 generations it would be different again in subtle skeletal features but still recognisable as my ancestor. Go back 200,000 generations and we look markedly different and something resembling Lucy. There are examples recovered throughout this period.

Based on this description, how many fossil specimens would you want to see to prove the lineage of our evolutionary tree, every single one of those 200,000 bodies?

So Olivia, what exactly do those bones of Lucy mean to you, anything or nothing?
Again, Lucy can be an extinct animal, or mixed pieces, faked. You yourself say fossil records are incomplete. What boggles me is why you would want to even entertain a belief in it with such a lack of evidence, which is the point you would try to make with each of us who believes in God. However, we all have experiential evidence which is more than what you have.

It comes back to my initial argument of you can't prove the so called proof. If Lucy was true and found why would he/she be preserved and nothing else preserved. Obviously for procreation and survival their would have been those like Lucy in the same area and some would have been subject to similar preservation.

The point is that you are holding onto something sketchy and non verifiable since you yourself were not there and since science tools cannot be verified since they were not used back then so no one can be sure they are accurate.

My question is why you hold onto this. I have written spiritual things and no response from you, yet the bible is here and the complexity is astonishing and can be looked into now.

Not to be mean, but since a child evolution has always seemed preposterous to me. My parents believed in it, but I from the start (I was never one to go by another's opinion just because they said it) thought it seemed like a ritualistic ideology. I however feel this way about much of the medical industry as well. Ritualism in thought produces stagnation. The true inventors are the ones who are willing to think outside their boundaries allowing real discovery.

You were talking about DNA earlier. My daughter, who is in college now, just wrote a report in which part of what she talked about was how it has been discovered that DNA gets reprogrammed by words. She was also talking about how thinking programs DNA in such a way that it allows pathways for possibility (faith).

Now this is biblical. Perfect DNA from perfect speech and faith. If you are really interested in discovery about the bible won't don't you research more of these types of things?

I just can't imagine basing my whole hope or ideology on stagnation of thought. Rehashing the same thing over and over.

My belief in God is not something I have to continuously go back to in the past as a set moment that I am stuck in. God constantly speaks life making His existence a constant renewal and awakening.

Is there really some type of security in being set in this.

Some people have explained why for all the tragedy on earth, but I don't think you are satisfied. What is it in what has been said that is still leaving you with unanswered questions? You still believe God to have done wrong and I do not in any way judge you for this, but I would like to discuss it with you because I can understand from that view point that it could make someone closed to everything else. I understand when people question God and I believe you still have those questions. How could you even begin to entertain people having the experiential that directly conflicts with your opinion of God? I just want to answer in a non judgmental way any questions you have.
 
So, in your opinion BP, when did this 'variety' of ape live amongst us? Where did it come from and why isn't it living with us now?

What species do these fossils represent to you?

I don't think anyone can truly determine the time question...I however am not against the OEC view (as opposed to YEC) so I would just say a very long time ago...definitely primates....probably walked upright on occasion as do other apes and chimps...but the whole of the data is overwhelming that the Australopithicene were knuckle walkers. So in my opinion (which is no less valid, because it is opinion) these apes were a variety no longer extant...for what ever natural reasons they did not succeed (I see some indications of their being eaten by the genus homo...though the Neo-Darwinains must reject the evidence of possible humans because their theory dictates this must not be so at this time, based on the lack of "fossilized bone" evidence...which also may not be accurate...

Naming a creature to be a certain "species" is somewhat subjective....because some identify by homological similarity which is not real science and has no basis in actual evidence...for ex. because some reptiles, some mammals, have wings does not actually mean they were or became birds (who also have wings)....it just means they have wings. The definition of "species" has gone through many changes and some people do not categorize based on the same criteria...for ex. some people consider anti-biotic resistant bacteria a new species but mean a new creature (an unknowable fact assumed to be true.)..others would categorize this difference as a special adaptation only...clearly it is not a new kind of bacteria but the same kind (the original meaning of "species" which came from the Bible) who now is resistant...like when we develop antibodies, we do not stop beng people or become a new species of Sapien.
 
Again, Lucy can be an extinct animal, or mixed pieces, faked.

Which one of those do you believe the most, extinct animal, mixed pieces or fake?


It comes back to my initial argument of you can't prove the so called proof. If Lucy was true and found why would he/she be preserved and nothing else preserved. Obviously for procreation and survival their would have been those like Lucy in the same area and some would have been subject to similar preservation.

No doubt there are plenty more human remains from Lucys time buried away somewhere. I look forward to seeing their discovery. Like I said, fossilisation is a rare honour.

You were talking about DNA earlier. My daughter, who is in college now, just wrote a report in which part of what she talked about was how it has been discovered that DNA gets reprogrammed by words. She was also talking about how thinking programs DNA in such a way that it allows pathways for possibility (faith).

Now this is biblical. Perfect DNA from perfect speech and faith. If you are really interested in discovery about the bible won't don't you research more of these types of things?

I would be happy to read your daughters work, not that I'm an expert but I would be interested.

I just can't imagine basing my whole hope or ideology on stagnation of thought. Rehashing the same thing over and over.

You can call science many things Olivia but a stagnation of thought is, with respect, the most ridiculous description of it.

What is it in what has been said that is still leaving you with unanswered questions? You still believe God to have done wrong and I do not in any way judge you for this, but I would like to discuss it with you because I can understand from that view point that it could make someone closed to everything else.

Nope, I don't believe God to have done wrong. I don't believe in God. I will always have unanswered questions, that's the essence of a curious mind which is not bound by anything.
 
I don't think anyone can truly determine the time question...I however am not against the OEC view (as opposed to YEC) so I would just say a very long time ago...definitely primates....probably walked upright on occasion as do other apes and chimps...but the whole of the data is overwhelming that the Australopithicene were knuckle walkers. So in my opinion (which is no less valid, because it is opinion) these apes were a variety no longer extant...for what ever natural reasons they did not succeed

So our extinct primate Lucy was an unfortunate creation amongst the estimated 1 to 4 billion species that have died out during Earths history.

The 9 million or so estimated living species must be extremely thankful to still be here don't you think?

Every fossil found then, according to your thinking, is just another unsuccessful creation that didn't cut it in Gods world. Take the lower conservative estimate of 1 billion species and it works out that only 0.9% of everything ever created has struggled on to the present day. The rest having been wiped out for one or other reasons. That smacks of either carelessness, willful neglect or perhaps a poor design on the part of a creator if you ask me. Surely Lucy deserved a better fate?

Why go to the fantastic effort of creating such a diverse and beautiful array of species just to stand by and watch them fade away to nothing more than a pile of bones? And to think, humans have survived in our present form through aeons of extinction of vastly more powerful beasts - we must be very very special indeed!

I've edited my figures due to estimated number of living species.
 
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Atheists are hard work. I believe they do in fact have some belief in God somewhere or else they wouldn't be so curious and looking for answers. Those of us who are 100% in Jesus realise we will always have unanswered questions but we accept Him nonetheless. The difference with those who've experienced the Holy Spirit is that we can trust and rest in Him no matter what. Which one of us could ever understand the mighty works of God and who He is. There is an amazing video somewhere showing the planets even more than we are aware of and they get even more ginormous in size. I will try and find it. It is astounding.
 
Atheists are hard work. I believe they do in fact have some belief in God somewhere or else they wouldn't be so curious and looking for answers. Those of us who are 100% in Jesus realise we will always have unanswered questions but we accept Him nonetheless. The difference with those who've experienced the Holy Spirit is that we can trust and rest in Him no matter what. Which one of us could ever understand the mighty works of God and who He is. There is an amazing video somewhere showing the planets even more than we are aware of and they get even more ginormous in size. I will try and find it. It is astounding.
I am obviously hard work for theists, that goes without saying.

I'm not sure where the solar system fits in here but go for it. I'm aware of planetary size ratios and star size ratios for that matter. I'm very keen on astronomy and spend many cold evenings in the garden with my modest Meade 8" Cat.
 
I believe it was you who stressed taking into account all God says on a matter (which I agree we should)....? The serpent, that ol'dragon the devil, tells us this was not a biological dragon (giant lizard) but Satan in some assumed form or even symbolic for a hypnogogic being that would allure someone...but then though I take the word for what it says I am not dogmatic regarding a wooden literalism...for example I believe God in His essence is spirit (non-corporeal) and does not have physical eyes, nostrils, a foot ON the earth, etc., or that Jesus has a handle and hinges (the door) or as Lamb walks on all fours and is covered by wool...

As I receive it through the Spirit I guess...but it is okay if you have received it differently (it is after all a non-essential)

In His love

brother Paul
That's not really a mature comment. While Jesus didn't have literal hinges, everything hinges on Him! :D
 
I am obviously hard work for theists, that goes without saying.

I'm not sure where the solar system fits in here but go for it. I'm aware of planetary size ratios and star size ratios for that matter. I'm very keen on astronomy and spend many cold evenings in the garden with my modest Meade 8" Cat.
Yes i cannot find a the certain video clip i was looking for however there seems to be very interesting viewing if you search under God's universe.
 
I've thought about it, read about it, it looks like a chimp. Simple enough. I'm not desperate to find a missing link.

I agree, let's get back to Genesis. I'm starting to get disappointed with your logic and reasoning skills. I joined in on this thread because I enjoy reading your comments for the most part. But now that you won't face the truth that evolutionists have lied, your skepticism is overpowering your discernment.

The scallywags who paraded the Piltdown man hoax are not people who I would associate myself with. They were certainly not scientists and those fraudsters are not representative of the thousands of credited scientists, if you base your entire view of us on them then you are doing your own skeptisism a massive injustice.

We will return to Genesis, I enjoy my start of its understanding although it's stimulating to switch between both sides don't you think?

My logic and reasoning are what they are I'm afraid, free will and all that.
 
The scallywags who paraded the Piltdown man hoax are not people who I would associate myself with. They were certainly not scientists and those fraudsters are not representative of the thousands of credited scientists, if you base your entire view of us on them then you are doing your own skeptisism a massive injustice.

We will return to Genesis, I enjoy my start of its understanding although it's stimulating to switch between both sides don't you think?

My logic and reasoning are what they are I'm afraid, free will and all that.
Scientists are human too with agendas, some not so pure as one may think.
 
It comes back to my initial argument of you can't prove the so called proof. If Lucy was true and found why would he/she be preserved and nothing else preserved. Obviously for procreation and survival their would have been those like Lucy in the same area and some would have been subject to similar preservation.

Over 400 specimens of Australopithecus afarensis have been found in Ethiopia and Tanzania.
 
Over 400 specimens of Australopithecus afarensis have been found in Ethiopia and Tanzania.
You know there are extinct animals that lived and died and no longer exist. In fact some say we are losing between 200 and 2000 species a year to extinction. All ancient societies speak of flying dragons, yet we don't have a single fossil, so did they not exist? I'm sure a great deal of information about ancient times was lost in the library fire of Alexandria. The bible is a more proven book than Tacitus! He was a Roman historian from around 116 AD BUT a single copy of his annals wasn't discovered until 850 AD! There are well over 200 full manuscripts of the bible, 90 of the NT, found in 1975 in the Sinai showing that what we have today is the same as hundreds of years ago. In fact there are only 643 manuscripts of the Iliad and we have over 20,000 manuscripts from the 2nd century! If we had as much information about Caesar or Alexander the Great, issues with their history wouldn't be an issue! So with this kind of information, we have the true account of the Apostles. If they were living a lie, then they died for that lie - all but John were murdered. What about the doctors in Afghanistan that recently died for what they believed. Would you die for a lie?
 
You know there are extinct animals that lived and died and no longer exist. In fact some say we are losing between 200 and 2000 species a year to extinction. All ancient societies speak of flying dragons, yet we don't have a single fossil, so did they not exist? I'm sure a great deal of information about ancient times was lost in the library fire of Alexandria. The bible is a more proven book than Tacitus! He was a Roman historian from around 116 AD BUT a single copy of his annals wasn't discovered until 850 AD! There are well over 200 full manuscripts of the bible, 90 of the NT, found in 1975 in the Sinai showing that what we have today is the same as hundreds of years ago. In fact there are only 643 manuscripts of the Iliad and we have over 20,000 manuscripts from the 2nd century! If we had as much information about Caesar or Alexander the Great, issues with their history wouldn't be an issue! So with this kind of information, we have the true account of the Apostles. If they were living a lie, then they died for that lie - all but John were murdered. What about the doctors in Afghanistan that recently died for what they believed. Would you die for a lie?

I know that countless species have become extinct, what is the point?

There are many creatures that can account for dragon myths. Humans are (or used to be) extremely susceptible to mythology. I doubt that a fire breathing flying serpent existed though.

I would put my life down for several reasons but not a lie. If you mean my atheist outlook is a lie then that's entirely subjective as it doesn't look like a lie from where I sit. Regardless, a non-belief in God doesn't tend to drive men into conflict or situations that are life threatening too often.

The doctors who try to help in war torn countries do an admirable job, the motive for their work is humanitarian. The reasons for the religious and cultural fighting that surrounded them as they worked likely didn't enter their thoughts as they met their demise.
 
I know that countless species have become extinct, what is the point?

There are many creatures that can account for dragon myths. Humans are (or used to be) extremely susceptible to mythology. I doubt that a fire breathing flying serpent existed though.

I would put my life down for several reasons but not a lie. If you mean my atheist outlook is a lie then that's entirely subjective as it doesn't look like a lie from where I sit. Regardless, a non-belief in God doesn't tend to drive men into conflict or situations that are life threatening too often.

The doctors who try to help in war torn countries do an admirable job, the motive for their work is humanitarian. The reasons for the religious and cultural fighting that surrounded them as they worked likely didn't enter their thoughts as they met their demise.
*SIGH*
 
I know that countless species have become extinct, what is the point?

There are many creatures that can account for dragon myths. Humans are (or used to be) extremely susceptible to mythology. I doubt that a fire breathing flying serpent existed though.

I would put my life down for several reasons but not a lie. If you mean my atheist outlook is a lie then that's entirely subjective as it doesn't look like a lie from where I sit. Regardless, a non-belief in God doesn't tend to drive men into conflict or situations that are life threatening too often.

The doctors who try to help in war torn countries do an admirable job, the motive for their work is humanitarian. The reasons for the religious and cultural fighting that surrounded them as they worked likely didn't enter their thoughts as they met their demise.
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