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Kind of confused, need a little clarification

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by NearertoGod, Apr 11, 2008.

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  1. Kind of confused, need a little clarification

    :eek: I feel kind of silly posting such a question like this, but I like to gain knowledge and this one topic was kind of nagging at me.

    I've asked it before to other "Christians" and gotten a negative response as if they felt I was dumb or something, but I was really curious on this.

    I was wondering:

    When someone dies (non-Christian or Christian), does God send them right to Hell/Heaven, or do they go to this place (I believe I remember some place called 'Adam's Bosom' or something like) where everyone goes and waits for the day of judgement? Or do God's Chosen People go there and the sinners someplace else?

    :eek:

    Really confused, I just don't want to have these swirly thoughts in my head, lol.
     
  2. I think you are speaking of Abrahams bosom, which is of course the safety of the elect.

    In my view of God's almighty creation with respect to the afterlife, we tend to confuse the issue with our own concepts of "Time."

    I do not believe in any sort of a purgatory, as I can find no substantiation for it in scripture.

    God created matter, just as He created time, and even man has been able to prove that time and matter are relative to one another.

    I believe that when we die, (The first death) matter and time are no longer a part of our reality.

    The second death, is judgement day. I think it is like when you go to sleep and awake, you really have no idea what time it is. Have you been asleep for two hours?, or eight hours?

    Time is not an issue when you sleep.

    Purgatory was created by man in order to explain in a temporal manner where the saints that have gone on before us are residing today. In my opinion it is foolishness, and has no biblical basis whatsoever.

    There is no "WAIT" because in that place there is no time.

    But on the final day, we shall all rise, both the quick and the dead, and many upstanding, church going well meaning people will go someplace else.

    And many of the people you and I would never have thought were in Gods grace, will join with Christ in the air, and spend eternity in Praise and everlasting worship.
     
  3. Oh, it was "Abraham's Bosom"! I knew it started with "A" but I just couldn't remember it.

    Any others? >_>
     
  4. Actually, when Catholics pray to Saints it's because we believe they ARE in Heaven, not in Purgatory.

    Also, I firmly believe in purgatory, and that there is biblical evidence for it.

    For those of you who don't know what Purgatory is, it's a place where the souls of those who have died in the state of grace, but with venial sins or reparation due for forgiven sins are fully cleansed in Purgatory in order that they be made perfect for Heaven, all self-love is purged so that only love of God remains.

    Biblical Evidence
    Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.

    This would seem that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. But there is no sin to be forgiven in heaven, and sins cannot be forgiven in hell. So anyone remission of sin in the next world must be in Purgatory.

    1 Corinthians 3:15
    If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


    This can't be referring to eternal loss in hell, because no one there can be saved. It can't be in heaven because there is no suffering in heaven. So it must be a middle state then, where the soul temporarily suffers loss so that it may gain heaven.

    1 Peter 3:18-20
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the un-righteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building f the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

    1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.


    So, those verses talk about a prison for disobedient spirits, and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them. This is not hell, because no one is saved from hell. It's probably not "Abraham's bosom" where the righteous souls of the OT waited until Christ opened the gates of heaven because this is a place for disobedient spirits. It doesn't exactly sound like St. Peter is describing the waiting place of such righteous OT saints like David and John the Baptist when he mentions the disobedient spirits.

    St. Peter is describing a temporary state for disobedient souls who were eventually saved. At the very least, it proves that a third place can exist between heaven and hell. At the very most, it proves the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.
     
  5. There are only two places--heaven and hell. One day hell will be cast into the lake of fire along with death, the anti-Christ, false prophet, the beast, and all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Rev. 20:10-15

    The "bosom of Abraham" was a term used in reference to where the believers went in the Old Testament days. There was hell and Paradise--separated by a "gulf". Those in hell could see over into Paradise, but they could pass from one to the other. Check out Luke 16:19-31. Some call that a parable, but parables didn't use names as that does.

    There is no Paradise any more. Now all believers got to heaven, and non-believers go to hell.
     
  6. I agree with Aelita on the idea of purgatory, but who is saved is another question altogether.
    What does it mean to be a believer? I think it is much deeper than saying, "Jesus is my God", but those who LIVE "Jesus is my God" (even if they do not realize it) will be saved.
    Biblical verses (please someone help me with verses, I am trying to memorize my Bible but it's difficult):
    "Those who do my will are my mother, brother, and sister."
    "Those who are not against us are for us."
    "Those who love me follow my commands."
    And there is another about those who say, "Lord, Lord" and God will not recognize them.
    Granted, eternal life only comes to us by Jesus, in professing He is God; but the manner of professing it is much deeper than just saying and thinking, "I believe". It is in doing God's work on earth that we prove what God we serve. Another example is the Pharisees, who said that they did not sin, and they believed they would be saved. But Jesus rebuked them multiple times, calling them "white-washed" tombs.
    Sorry if this seems a little off-topic, but this issue seems appropriate when talking about the afterlife and who goes where. I'm not trying to start a debate, but I'm expressing my opinion on this manner. ;)
     
  7. It isn't enough for us to say "I believe". We must believe explicitly in Christ, His Church, and His Teachings. This is faith and faith is the "beginning of salvation". We must live a good life and die in the state of grace. We must receive the water of Baptism. These are only a few of the things necessary for salvation. But just saying "I Believe" and to think everything is fine is not enough. I hope this helps. God Bless
     
  8. ExCordeChristi, and Aelita,

    What purpose is the cross if the saved must pay for their sins in purgatory?

    We will all, saved and unsaved, come into judgment. Those who reject God will be judged according to their sins. They will be punished for their sins, because they did not accept Christ Jesus as their savior.

    But those of us who have believed in Christ Jesus, repented of our sin will be judged according to the good God has accomplished through us. We will be rewarded for our faith, because Jesus has already taken the punishment for ours sins.

    As far as the east is from the west, so far hath God removed our transgressions from us. (Psa 103:12)

    We do not earn entry into heaven by being "good" or making amends for our sins.

    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 )

    WOW! GOD IS GREAT!

    I can never undo the wrongs I have committed in this life, but God can wipe them out of existence, never to be remembered.

    It's Heaven or Hell. I trust in a God whose mercy is greater than His wrath.
     
  9. NearertoGod, Don't feel silly for asking questions. You'd be surprised if you could know how many people will be glad you asked because they were afraid to. None of us has all the answers.
     
  10. depends on which bible you read and how much it is pallatable for you.
     
  11. There is absolutely no connection between those scriptures and a mythical purgatory. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the age to come which is Christ reign on earth. The burning of works not instituted and empowered by the Holy Spirit is at the judgment seat when Christ returns,the gospel was preached to those who died before Jesus Christ went to the cross and payed the price for sin- they where in a holding place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting redemption. Our redemption is paid in full at the cross, whether our works are rewarded has nothing at all to do with our salvation as:
    2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    No amount of money can be paid (indulgences ) no other price but the shed blood of Jesus Christ can make us acceptable to the Father. Anything else is a complete contradiction to scripture and these things were indeed made up to extort money from and control poor people.
     
  12. If you add the apocryphal books you will always be confused by the contradictions they introduce.
     
  13. if people mis interpret the original,it becomes a copy,we know satan is this.
     
  14. If I remember right Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through Me."
    Maybe He was wrong to sacrifice His perfect life on the cross for our sins and we will get a second chance when we go into purgatory.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     

  15. Catholics do not believe that Purgatory is a "Second Chance." Purgatory is only a place where we are purged and made perfect for heaven.
     
  16. Didn't Christ do that when He died for our sins?? I thought when He was on the cross He said it is finished.
     
  17. C.S. Lewis had some interesting thoughts on Purgatory:

    The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

    Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'


    I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

    My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."


    - C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109


    I have always thought of Purgatory as completely compatible with and necessary for God's justice, which is infinite. We have been saved by grace!! It is a gift of God, and not our own doing!! God did not have to die on the cross, He did it freely. But we must also pay the price for our own offenses. Each time we sin, we inflict more pain upon Our Lord. We deserve a punishment of our own. Our Lord shouldn't have taken all of our punishments away. Indeed, if He had, we would have no suffering or pain in this world. But St. Paul tells us that it is good and profitable. "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..." (Colossians 1:24). Now, of course nothing was lacking in Christ's suffering. So what else can that mean? I believe that we have not received the infinite merits of Christ because we are not yet in total union with Him. He gave us His grace by His death, but we must earn His grace. Sin is the absence of God's goodness, and God will not reward us for sin. For though God is infinitely merciful...He is also infinitely just.
     
  18. Abraham's bosom was the place old testament saints waited for God's provision through Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Jesus Christ made the only provision that can make us acceptable in God's eyes. He has become our righteousness and our sanctifaction and there is not a single scriptural indication that there is any need for works to make myself holy (which I could never do according to the Word of God) after I die.

    1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


    That fact that this ( Abraham's Bosom) is no longer necessary is demonstrated in the Word's of the great Apostle:

    2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    If we had to work, suffer or whatever it is you imagine that we could do to make ourselves good enough to be with God no man would ever enter His presence.
    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Jesus Himself is my righteousness and that is how I can boldly approach God:
    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

    If Christ paid the price I could not pay why would I deceive myself into thinking I can make myself worthy now?
    The Church at Galatia made much the same error thinking they could please God by obeying rules and becoming acceptable in their own strength. Jesus Christ is either our Saviour in every detail or He is not our Saviour at all. What part of paying for your sins completely on the cross did He fail in? The answer is of course none.
     
  19. but if you read Jesus he does not tell you sinning is good.the woman who was to be stoned was left with Jesus and he said i forgive you but change your ways.Jesus wiped away her sins but told her to change her ways.
     
  20. While that is entirely true Mike you still cannot and never will be able to please God or make yourself acceptable to Him any other way than to be found in Christ. As we are found in Christ His Holy Spirit works in us leading and guiding us in all truth, convicting us of sin and leading us deeper into our walk with Jesus. One thing to remember is this Jesus ministered to the Jews and the lost. The Church was not born until He payed the price for sin and the Holy Spirit was poured out. We are given the Epistles as God love letter and instruction to His bride.
     
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