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It’s All About Faith

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. The Lord Jesus is always more concerned with what He can do for us, rather than what we can do for Him (Luke 10:40-42). The desire of worship and service to Him and the Father is sought and returned (John 4:23, 24), and if the intention is out of debt (which there is none), the full work and understanding of grace is incomplete where the conscience is concerned, producing an inferior liberation from guilt, which results in the “weighty” reasoning that you will always owe the Father for His grace in Christ. This will spawn a works-based concept by attempting repayment, which never truly satisfies, ending with an inevitable disappointment.

    Nowhere is it said in “the word of truth” that the gift of grace, which is “the free gift” (Eph 2:8; Rom 5:15, 16, 18) incurs repayment. Though this gift was at cost, wherein we were “bought with a price,” our desire to “glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's” (1 Cor 6:20) must find its sole basis in gratitude and love for Them, not out of an owed unpayable debt. This would be a miscomprehension of the proper construct concerning the definition of “gift,”—and “free” at that, not to mention frustration to the overall entailment of God’s love.

    I believe one of the primary goals of the Spirit of God is to teach us to focus our faith solely on Scriptural facts within the cannon of the Bible, and minimizing, as much as lies within us from being moved by sense and intemperate emotion. A simple truth to mind is that faith is maintained only through that from which it is formed (Rom 10:17).
     
  2. Amen... until the last paragraph. I see the work of the Holy Spirit as getting us to focus on Jesus, not the scriptures. There is so much more to God than what's been penned. People always search for proof of God, and the amazing things within the text is so amazingly powerful that it'll blow most people's mind. Even when translated over and over! It's that powerful! But the scriptures are only a map that point all ways to Jesus and then we can know even much more through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

    Glory to God and thank you for you uplifting words! :D
     
  3. Amen, in fact I know some very faithful Christians (who love and are committed to God and know without Christ they could not enter the kingdom) cannot read...Christ glorifies the Father and the Spirit glorifies the Son...but yes He does also open our eyes to understand the word for those who read, but for others they can only hear the word (though faith comes by hearing)...as Paul says how can they believe what they have not heard, and how can they hear lest they be told and so God first gives us those who speak His words...so I agree the focus is Christ (the written word secondarily)...
     
  4. Be careful not to throw the baby out with the bat water.....while works do not save, they are an integral part of being saved.

    You mentions Ephesians 2:8-9 but you must continue to 10
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    Good works are the fruit of salvation.
     
  5. Yes...you shall know them by their fruits...
     
  6. [quote="Brother Paul, post: 304843, member: 13044"..as Paul says how can they believe what they have not heard, and how can they hear lest they be told and so God first gives us those who speak His words...so I agree the focus is Christ (the written word secondarily)...[/quote]

    I don't fully agree. The Word is alive and spirit.

    Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Heb 4:12
    For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Though I have been praying in tongues for years, spoke many prophecy, laid hands on the sick that they be healed, faith to do these things come from hearing and by hearing the Word of God.

    Just because I think I hear God, seeking the Wisdom of God it's the Word that separates my thoughts from the thoughts of the Spirit and judges the intent of my heart. Do I hear to satisfy my desire or was it really the Lord saying this and that? The Word judges what I hear.

    Faith comes by hearing something, and in several places by the anointing the Word is expounded in a more clear way. Jesus Christ or Jesus the anointed one and his anointing is to show us more clearly Himself as He said I can be found in the Word.

    Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6
    Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    (2Pe 1:18-20)

    Though Peter saw the Miracles, saw the Christ (The power to do Miracles as was the answer back to John the baptist as proof Jesus was the Christ, the Anointed one) Peter said though we heard, seen and was a witness, we have a MORE SURE WORD.

    So I take the stance, the Word comes first as God has magnified his Word above his name.

    If the Word is not first, then I am able to hear anything that tickles my fancy and fall into error and make believe.

    Blessings.
     
  7. I think I understand you, but that which is to be known concerning fellowship and growth in Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit is all contained within Their Word. Everything that has to do with God is in and from Scripture, and if this was all one knew, it would be completely sufficient.
     
  8. #9 Brother Paul, Feb 6, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
    [quote="Brother Paul, post: 304843, member: 13044"..as Paul says how can they believe what they have not heard, and how can they hear lest they be told and so God first gives us those who speak His words...so I agree the focus is Christ (the written word secondarily)...[/quote]

    I don't fully agree. The Word is alive and spirit.


    If you disagree with St. Paul that is fine with me...now then, Jesus said His words are spirit and they are life...His words...the focus is on what He said...it does not say the Word with a capital W which is Christ (thought He certainly is the life of all who are saved)

    Again you make the same mistake when you say "Faith comes by hearing something, and in several places by the anointing the Word is expounded in a more clear way. Jesus Christ or Jesus the anointed one and his anointing is to show us more clearly Himself as He said I can be found in the Word.

    The Word of God is not the word of God...one is a person (the living Word) and the other the written word...just say'n

    Now then after reading all you have said I see no difference...however we hear the word whether by His direct revelation, by a preacher or a teacher, or by reading or hearing the written word (small w) it is still by hearing...many though they have ears to hear can read the word (small w) over and over and get nothing...

    All I was saying was that our being saved does not come from reading the written word (though that is certainly one of the ways the Spirit convicts some)...He says My sheep shall hear my voice, not my sheep shall read about what I said...St. Paul also elsewhere says (Ephesians 1:13) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

    Most of the people Paul was addressing here could not read and the New Testament had not even been written...but many in that place were saved because after hearing the gospel of their salvation they trusted...whether they could read or nat had nothing to do with it...same with the 3,000 souls at Pentecost and more...

    No Michael, your argument is not with me as I am not saying one cannot learn of GOd or find the path to salvation therein....this is the Theopneustos Graphae (God breathed writings) but most come to Christ by learning of Him or hearing of Him outside of having read the Bible (most Christians I know have never even read the whole Bible)...some terrible heretics and enemies of God have and use the ignorance of some against them to confuse them shaking their faith to the quik and causing great doubts...I love the word of God (my absolute favorite 66 books trough which the Lord speaks to me ever new and I have read them over and over) but it is by God's grace I have been saved, through faith in Christ.

    In His love

    brother Paul
     
  9. Michael, I believe there are three that are the truth...

    Jesus Messiah, the Son of the living God, the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE

    The Holy Spirit (the Spirit of TRUTH who leads us and guides us into all truth)

    and the God-breathed writings (John 17:17)

    and these three are one (in full agreement)

    I think we are saying the same thing...certainly you agree that people who never read or cannot read were and can still be saved, right? Is reading the small w "word" a requirement for salvation? If so can you provide some scriptures...Thanks my brother
     
  10. I did read through the rest Brother. It possibly be we are saying the same thing. I Stated I don't "FULLY Agree" meaning there would be some agreement.

    I use to say just stay in the Word, but Faith does not come by reading and by reading the Word. It comes by hearing the Word. You can read all you want but without a teacher anointed by the Master Teacher (Holy Spirit) how can it be expound on? It did not say how can they here if we don't send literature out, it said how can they here without a preacher? It did not say how can they here without a Jesus tract with a picture of hell on the back, but one must speak so that they hear.

    How can they know a relationship with Jesus Christ unless they see one? It's written follow after those who through FAITH and Patience inherit the promises. I don't want to hear about God from someone that is broke and always sick, I already have that in the World.

    So, Yes, I agree, I did not have my e-sword out but quoted some scripture which I am sure you recognize.

    My issue then should be more clear. It's when we take our imagined relationship and start believing things that are not in the Word. One guy I heard saying........ "The Bible? I am way beyond that now with God." That is a way beyond what I am willing to tolerate.

    In my circles people get thus saith the Lords all the time, but lots of it does not line up with something called a Scripture. If it is against scripture, then it's not the Lord.

    The Lord may say go here do this, which is fine, but anything against scripture then not fine.

    My grandma is like that, she believes some things that are not scripture, like God told her eating at Chinese places is eating food sacrificed to idols. I ask, where is your scripture Grandma, she says I am young and she has been with the Lord a long time, more so than me.

    Some pray to Mary, I ask where is that scripture? They say it was handed down from the time of acts and we follow the Word and what is not in the Word. I say your confused.

    Blessing Paul I hope we are at least close to the same page. :)
     
  11. My issue then should be more clear. It's when we take our imagined relationship and start believing things that are not in the Word. One guy I heard saying........ "The Bible? I am way beyond that now with God." That is a way beyond what I am willing to tolerate.

    I give a big amen to that my brother...that's certainly not part of the program...but why do you capitalize the w for the written word? Just curious...I see another who also does this...just curious...when people do this it is difficult to discern between the Son/Word Himself and the words God spoke though human men...
     
  12. I am using my wife's laptop, I am not very great at English (Though my native language) and I hit the caps key and don't go back to correct it. I do out of habit capitalize "Word of God" or Word, Son, and God of course. The Word is alive, so I give it a person type thing. (Not that I am a big fan of Trinity but more so than oneness)

    Glad that is sorted.

    Thank you and be blessed.
     
  13. The word of God takes us to the Word of God and there's so much more. The word of God is just a shadow of thing. Through the Holy Spirit, teaching us Truth all the time in our daily lives, we can have the real instead of the shadow. That doesn't mean everything is in the penned word of God, sufficient yes, but even John said the world could not contain the books that could be written about Jesus' life, let alone all we need to know to be victorious and live as Jesus is NOW in this world today.

    1 John 4:17 (KJV) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

    Notice this world. We don't have to wait until we die to enjoy the Lord's presence. I want so much more of Him! :)
     
  14. Plato's "cave" allegory? :)
     
  15. Just a shadow?.......... does not surprise me.
     
  16. No idea what that is.
     
  17. Yes, Hebrews 8 & 10.
     
  18. Plato's cave is an [unnecessarily complex] allegory about perception.

    The basic idea is that you've got some people (us) all sitting in a cave staring at the wall, unable to turn their heads. They've got a light source behind them, so they can see shadows on the wall, but they are unable to see what's causing the shadows. (There are quite a few more levels to the allegory; that's just your barebones rundown of it.)

    So how do we turn around and see the real things? Plato says that education is the art of turning souls around.

    Actually, he believed that we all, at some point, came from the realm of real things, which he called "forms." We could probably think of this "realm" he believed in as the "spiritual realm," and that would be a fairly similar concept. So to Plato, "education" was simply remembering what you already knew before your temporal existence began.

    As Christians, we could probably respond by saying that only God can "turn souls around" and reveal Truth; we cannot discern Truth by our own power.

    So, when you said that the word of God is a "shadow," I assumed you meant that the Bible is fully true, but it's not the full Truth, and that full Truth is known only by God, and He is capable of revealing any part of it to whomever He pleases, at His pleasure.
     
  19. Nope, just quoting the Scriptures. Here's another one.

    1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    This is also why Paul doesn't judge himself, because he's incapable of knowing all the circumstances around him to judge correctly. So he leaves the judging up to God :)

    1 Corinthians 4:3-5 (KJV) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    In this case judging isn't discernment but "self condemnation". Remember the Romans 7 battle within. I watch so many christians, especially the one in the mirror, stumble at the voice of condemnation. We're taught in society that we are in control over our lives, but we really aren't and therefore we judge others and ourselves incorrectly. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. We can listen to the laundry list of dos and don'ts which leads to self-condemnation, but the Spirit says "you're dead to sin through Christ" if you're dead then no law. How can you condemn someone who's dead? The Law no longer applies. It's a very hard thing to live. Just some rambling thoughts.

    P.S. Amen to your comment :D
     

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