Is it right to side with moderate Muslims?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Grant Melville, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. For 2015, Time Magazine's Runner-up for Person of the Year is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of so-called Islamic State. IS, ISIS, ISIL (or whatever else one cares to call them) have dominated the news for what seems like an age. The extremist Islamic group has become highly influential, insofar as it's occupying the attention of the military and political minds of the Middle East, Europe and America.

    While no-one would deny the unspeakable, monstrous evil of Islamic State's objectives and activities, it would seem that a subtler, but no less evil, movement of the devil is being largely overlooked by the Christian profession. The emergence of an extreme Islamist threat to international security has drawn the Christian profession into close contact with moderate Muslims. The Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury have both been photographed sitting in mosques, surrounded by the Muslim faithful. Surely, this is nothing short of apostasy. Brethren, would any of us set foot in a mosque, and condone such a place by our presence? I would hope not. Yet Christendom seems to accept this behaviour in its leaders as normal, logical and, ultimately, a Christian response.

    We must never lose sight of the fact that a moderate Muslim is still ensnared in a Christ-denying system of idolatry, that Islam is fundamentally evil. Of course, the majority of Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding and upstanding citizens, but this doesn't make their religion any more compatible with the true faith of Christianity. Many professed atheists are equally law-abiding and peaceful, and the same can be said for Bhuddists, Hindus, Sikhs, and so on. Yet they're all, without exception, ensnared in evil delusions and involved in evil practises. Can we can associate ourselves - and, consequently, our Lord - with their false beliefs and deeds? Surely not. Yet this is what the leaders or Christendom are doing - bringing the Name of the Lord into association with idols, in the name of political expediency.
     
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  2. 1. This is shocking. Merkel and Abu Bakr could not be further apart.

    2. I have absolutely nothing against this. This is not apostasy. The Pope is making it clear that we can tolerate Muslims who are not extremists. This helps Christians in Muslim countries and vice versa.

    Christianity is not about right religion VS wrong religion. We often think we can convert someone to Christianity. But we can't. Only by the Holy Spirit can someone call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3. God draws near to those who draw near to Him James 4:8. Drawing near to Him is not being in the right church. It is hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9. It is looking after widows and orphans in their need James 1:27. It is denying yourself Matt 16:24.

    I am against churches that are so liberal that they not 'encourage' those in other religions to change beliefs when in attendance. We must tolerate them but not push them over the edge.

    Islam is not fundamentally evil. Many Muslims are good people and that is better then being evil. Godfearing in wrong religion is not lukewarm either.

    The problem with Islam is that that minority of extemists has been estimated at being around 300 million.
     
  3. The short answer is NO!

    IF you have a basket of vipers and all of them are vegetarian except one, would you reach into that basket and caress that one?

    1 Thessalonians 5:22............
    "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
     
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  4. Now you can see the references to Anti-Christ - Rome and worldly religious Christianity - as opposed to the Church of Acts and the epistles
    of the New Testament. A Spirit-filled church [Pentecost] separated from worldly politics and worldly religion.
    Titus 2:11-14
    11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously,
    and godly, in this present world;
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,
    and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
     
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  5. KingJ, you said "Islam is not fundamentally evil..........................................."

    2 John 1:7 says For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
    Now it seems to me for your statement to be true, Islam would need to teach that Jesus as the Christ of God has indeed come in the flesh.
    Does it or does it not teach that Jesus was just another prophet and inferior to the one who founded Islam?
    The answer to that might well shed light on Islam's fundamental righteousness before God......do you think?
     
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  6. Is Islam evil? Yes, but so is your neighbor who watches porn when his wife is out of town.

    I still have yet to see why us American Christians point out Muslims like they are the most evil religion in all of mankind. They are lost, just like anybody else in the world. Am I going to go to their mosque, and worship Allah? No, but If there is a mosque close to me I'm not going to petition to get it banned. It's no different than having a bar, or an "adult" store in your town. Do I condone the actions done there? Absolutely not, but we aren't going to be finding lost souls in a society of Christians. That's why we were called to go into the world and be light. Islam isn't the problem, sin is.
     
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  7. #7 KingJ, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
    All religions outside of Christianity upset God. ''Have no Gods before me'' Ex 20:3. I am not going to argue that with you. You are spot on there.

    But we can appreciate the fact that they are trying to be ''God fearing''. That kid that grows up in this religion and is forced to not commit apostasy has NO wiggle room until they are willing to choose death for the truth (Mid East) or a type of excommunication (outside of Mid East).

    The Bible is clear on what exactly drawing close to Jesus / God is. It is not being in the right religion or at first calling Jesus Lord. It is being God fearing.
     
  8. This is stretching. Muslims can tick your underlined vs 12 and vs 14. Probably better then many Christians.

    'Worldly religious Christianity' is in the liberal churches that condone 'Christians' in any type of sinful lifestyle. Not among those who want to tolerate and love fellow man.
     
  9. What about acknowledging that those vegetarian vipers are impressively defying the others and helping them out of the basket / or help them get the other out before the bad apples spoil them all.
     
  10. Drawing close to God means you meditate on His word and put into practice this life style His word teaches us and develope a God pleasing prayer life.

    To fear God is the beginning of wisdom and is reverence or respect do unto the one true most Holy God.
     
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  11. 1. No, that is not drawing near to God.

    2. Agreed. It is good to hear you say this. After you accused Job's fear of God as his weakness that brought hell upon him.
     
  12. #12 calvin, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
    The problem as I see it KingJ is that on the one hand you say Islam is not evil (which I believe it is), and on the other hand you are saying that there are many good Muslims as though they go hand in hand.....I believe they don't.
    Looking back through history, there have been many 'christians' who have been less than 'good people' but at no time did they ever cause Christianity to be evil. (though I'm sure they caused the Lord to be evil spoken of) In short no amount of poor quality Christians will make Christianity evil of itself. In the same (though reverse) way no amount of 'good' muslims can make Islam not evil.
    You seem to be arguing in favor of Islam being non evil from the premise that muslims are not evil therefore their religion mustn't be either. But is that a sound argument?
    Godfearing in the wrong religion is in the end, seeking to please and appease some God or other through exploits of piety. Could include crucifying adulterers, flagellation etc. etc.
    Godfearing in a Christian sense is reverencing the Lord in awe.......big difference I think.
    So, to summarize, the fact that Islam is evil does not of itself make muslims especially evil, but I'd say it sure handicaps them. I'm thinking that to judge individual Musims is above my pay grade so I avoid demarcation issues:)
    They will be judged in righiousness. Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
     
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  13. #13 KingJ, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
    1. Islam does teach things that are hard to digest. I use to say that a good Muslim is one who does not follow Muhammed's teachings. Whether it is not following Muhammeds teachings or perhaps understanding them better then a casual reader, fact is that most Muslims are not hellbent on seeing your head fly off your body if you don't convert. It does not matter what we say, this is a fact. Most Muslims have this sanity and love for others with their belief.

    2. That is a good point. Godfearing in the wrong religion can result in human sacrifices :giggle:. I would say that that is not entirely true though. Being honest to our working brain will help us realize that madness is madness and sanity, sanity. We all have a working brain that can compute the difference between killing a fish quickly, slowly or setting it free and going hungry. That same working brain knows that if we are cruel to anyone or thing, we are going to have to answer for it or expect karma. We all have this fear of God in us, even in the absence of any religion. I am wondering if calling it humanism is correct.

    3. Yes, they are handicapped by it. Let's not handicap them further with our insane behaviour / lack of love.
     
  14. That too!
     
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  15. Yes I agree with that for sure.
    We should treat them as we see our Heavenly Father treating them.
    They are still breathing air...so are we, and all by the blessing of the Lord.
    We do tend to confuse the sin with the sinner and lets be honest...we all fail at some time or other to love as the Lord loves.
     
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  16. Quoted from the Quran,

    "And kill them wherever you find them,


    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    It is a good thing that most Muslims are only hearers of the word, not doers! :)
     
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  17. Kj I have not ever said Jobs fear of God in anything I have ever said.
    So if you feel that is not drawing close to God then what is it ?
    I may wish I did not ask but what is your idea on drawing close to God? Please don't say you already answered this for you have not.
    Gods bless my friend
    James
     
  18. "He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathers not with me scatters. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through places without water, seeking rest; and not finding, he saith: I will return into my house whence I came out. And having come, he finds it swept and adorned. Then he goeth and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and entering in they dwell there. And the last state of that man becomes worse than the first." - Luke 11:23-27

    Brother, the fear of God of the Muslim is the sweeping and adorning of the house. Certain things have been expelled, a moral code is observed - which is good in itself. But it isn't enough, because nothing has occupied that empty place. Unless the power and presence of the Holy Spirit is there, unless there's a living link with the Lord Jesus as Saviour... there's no power to resist evil. This isn't just true of Muslims, but of anyone who tries to do right and keep themselves clear of evil in their own power. It's the work of the devil, through religions and philosophies, to convince man that he can maintain himself morally, that he doesn't need Christ. Everyone has a conscience, which is given of God, but that doesn't give us the power to do good. The Epistle to the Romans teaches us that. We need the Saviour, not just for eternal salvation, but present salvation. Islam, and a thousand other delusions, robs people of that. It is scattering, not gathering - each to consult his own conscience and his own beliefs, not believing in the Christ.
     
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  19. There is the seed of the serpent and there is the seed of the woman.
    "And I will put enmity between thy seed and the woman's seed "
    Of what seed waso Caine?
    And of what seed was Abel?
    It was not Able that rose up and slew his brother while they were in 'diologue'
    But it was" Cain that rose up and slew Abel.
    The Roman church has always mixed heathenism with the truth. And she seeks but to gather together all the religions/daughters "under her skirt".
    Be not unequal yoked.
    Multi faith (so called) meetings are an absurdity at best.
    Worse?they are an insult to God.
    Mixing truth with error and making a lie equal to the truth on the one hand an idol equal to the living God.
    What I see the father do,that do I said Jesus.
    So then what I see the Son doing that do I.
    If then the father had no respect unto a Muslims offering.then neither will I,or can or should, for there is"darkness in their teaching"
    I will not I pose my liberty on him.
    But he is deluded if he or any thinks they can use my liberty to impose their bondage.
    In Christ
    Gerald
     
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  20. ? Here are some quotes from my posts in this thread:

    Drawing near to Him is not being in the right church. It is hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9. It is looking after widows and orphans in their need James 1:27. It is denying yourself Matt 16:24.

    The Bible is clear on what exactly drawing close to Jesus / God is. It is not being in the right religion or at first calling Jesus Lord. It is being God fearing.

    Being honest to our working brain will help us realize that madness is madness and sanity, sanity. We all have a working brain that can compute the difference between killing a fish quickly, slowly or setting it free and going hungry. That same working brain knows that if we are cruel to anyone or thing, we are going to have to answer for it or expect karma. We all have this fear of God in us, even in the absence of any religion.

    Understand Jim that we are talking about an unsaved person drawing near to God. Your reply was speaking of saved. Yes, as a saved person spendng more time in prayer is good. But an unsaved person has to decide to hate or love what is evil John 3:19.

    Note the second line to James 4:8 ''Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded''.
     

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