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Irrefutable proof that Jesus was created

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Juk, Jul 20, 2015.

  1. Hebrews 1:5 KJV
    For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    No more denying.
  2. Juk, I think that verse means that the Father never said those things.
    That's proof He wasn't created.
  3. This is where reading a different version will help you.

    5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

    “You are my Son,
    today I have begotten you”?

    Or again,

    “I will be to him a father,
    and he shall be to me a son”?

    Same verse, but out of the Esv.

    What it is saying is that God has never said to an angel that that angel is his Son.
    Cturtle likes this.
  4. With the full array of the Greek meaning, Hebrews 1:5 says this:

    For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You [established You in an official Sonship relation, with kingly dignity]? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?
    Cturtle likes this.
  5. I just checked the Greek word for "begotten" in this verse, and it means to "procreate", "conceive", or to "regenerate" (figurative sense).
  6. You've missed the point.
    To paraphrase the first part:
    "When did I ever say to an angel ..."
    Major likes this.
  7. Yes. But God did say that He begot Jesus, and God doesn't lie.
  8. No, He didn't. You need to read the entire verse. You can't just pick out a part of it.
    Major likes this.
  9. Maybe you should look up "figurative".
  10. First of.......in light of all the other Scriptures available to you that say and confirm that the Lord Jesus Christ was always with God from the very beginning, whenever that was, and that there never was a time that He was not with God, why use Hebrews 1:5 to make an obsceure thought?

    Actually the writer is quoting Psalms 2:7 to pooint out the superiority of Christ in His relationship to the Father. Please remember that the whole purpose of Hebrews was to encourage those Hebrew believers who wanted to go back to Judaism to stay with Christ because He is supuereor to everything else that they could think of.

    This then is God's testimony that Jesus was His Son, the one and one SOn which then set forth the Diety in His virgin birth as a human man......thus the God-Man!
    Fully man yet fully God.

    "I will be to Him a Father and He shall be to me a Son".

    That my brother is a quote from 2 Samuel 7:14 and speaks to the Davidic covenant which confirms the unconditional promises of God. REMBEMBER it is all about supurerioty of Christ.

    In 2 Sam. it speaks to Solomon who built the house for God that David didn't. The words go beyound Solomon to Jesus Christ who in the line of flesh was the son of David and HE God's Christ is building a greater house than did Solomon.
    Juk, Fish_of_Faith and Euphemia says Amen and like this.
  11. It said figurative in parenthesis before the definition.
  12. I read the whole chapter.
  13. But you took a piece of a verse out of context to prove your point.
  14. Then, it seems that you had the answer but disregarded it.
  15. How does regenerate relate to the verse though?
  16. God placed His spirit in Jesus the Son of man to do the things of God on the earth. If that isn't regeneration, what is? His
    Spirit now comes to dwell within our spirits and regenerates us to do the works of Christ.
  17. Regeneration means a renewal, which could be spiritual, physical, et cetera.
  18. First, the words "only begotten" do not mean that Christ was created (as the heretic Arius taught). Rather they mean that He was "unique," "specially blessed," or "favored." Theologian John F. Walvoord in his classic book "Jesus Christ our Lord" rightly points out:
    "The thought is clearly that Christ is the begotten of God in the sense that no other is."
    Scholar Benjamin Warfield likewise comments: "the adjective 'only begotten' conveys the idea, not of derivation and subordination, but of uniqueness and consubstantiality: Jesus is all that God is, and He alone is this."
  19. Not in the case of Jesus, who needed no regeneration in any of that sense, nor renewal, et cetera...but He did need Holy Spirit to anoint Him and launch Him into ministry, which occurred at His water baptism.
  20. Greek word monogenēs
    mono is one or only
    genes is born or begotten

    Hence Jesus is the Son of God. Before He was born of Mary, He was the Lord and the Word. After He was born He was then begotten and thus the Son of God. He existed before Mary. Thru Mary He was transformed into flesh and blood to exist as we do.
    In John, he says in the beginning, Jesus is the Word and the Light. Verse 14 gives the description of His becoming the Son.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Not Jesus was made flesh. Not the Son was made flesh. The Word was made flesh. He was named Jesus and then became the only begotten Son.
    All things were created thru Him, the Word.
    JG27_chili, Mykuhl and Euphemia says Amen and like this.

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