in the tomb

That is a very good book. I highly recommend it. You can also find his lectures on the same. They are illuminating.

I am not one to be controversial and I do not want to offend anyone opinin on this and I do not want to do that here. I only make the observation that when you read this book you will see...."that Mr. Heiser uses discoveries in Ugarit, to reinterpret the Bible. "

Please take the time to read the info at https://themileses.com/2019/06/17/unseen-realm/
Also.....https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-bo...probably-wrong-about-satan-in-the-book-of-job
Also.....https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...ring-the-supernatural-worldview-of-the-bible/
 
Yes and NO!

Hell/Torments is a place of punishment and it is eternal according to the Word of God.

There is absolutely no biblical support for the notion that after death people get another chance to repent or that there is a condition called Purgatory.

Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear that everyone dies physically and, after that, comes the judgment.

Now you and me as Christians have already been judged and sentenced. Jesus took that sentence upon Himself. Our sin becomes His and His righteousness becomes ours when we believe in Him. Because He took our just punishment, we need not fear ever being separated from Him again. In fact, the truly born again person is in heaven right now but has just not died yet.

The judgment for unbelievers is still to come. Those spirits of the dead lost are now in Torments in Sheol. AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15, Torments will be turned into the Lake of Fire.

Now the NO part of my answer come from the Scriptures in Luke 16. Those in hell will be cut off from God is to forfeit all exposure to anything good. Hell will be a state of perpetual sin; yet those suffering there will possess full understanding of sin’s horrors. Remorse, guilt, and shame will be unending, yet accompanied by the conviction that the punishment is just.

Luke 16:25 ........
“But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’

Those who wind up in hell eternally will be seperated from God and will REMEMBER all of the times that they heard about God and rejected Him. They will REMEMBER every sermon, every prayer, every song that mentioned God!
Since evil is a perversion of good, evil can't exist on its own. Like their isn't any such thing as a flash-dark. Darkness is an absence of light. So God can't look on evil........................I would say hell is a complete absence of good. So without good how can evil continue? See what I mean? The Bible is an inch thick and a light year deep.

He upholds all things by the word of his power. Go to you-tube and look up quantum mechanics wave particle duality. You will set in awe of what he can do. I'm not saying you don"t already understand hes infinite. But watching that to me shows there are things we aren't suppose to know As Jesus said "with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible".

Far above my understanding. Like the saying a God small enough for me to understand, wouldn't be big enough to do me any good. Thats why I've quit putting limits on what he can do.

There is a lot we don't understand. For instance I'm sure satan is smarter than we, but somehow God blinded him into letting Jesus be crucified. When the Lord said "it is finished" I'll bet it hit satan and he said boy I blew it!!

I know in whom I have believed and mostly can only see his work in the rear view mirror.

Have a great day, Scooter
 
His systematic dismantling of Zecharia Sitchin's claims concerning the Sumerian and Akkadian languages is fantastic.
Origen,

See what I mean?

I will look at everything posted. However if I were satan I would pervert the teachings in seminary. There is more nonsense spewed from pulpits across the country than we can imagine. Why? Because like satan everyone has the answer. Look at Joel O., he fills an old football stadium. We have lost Charles Stanley, Chuck Missler, Henry Morris, D. James Kennedy, Michael Heiser, and I'm sure I could think of many more. Almost David Jeremiah.

Major, this isn't relating to you, however why aren't the churches being persecuted? I mean in this country. Because most are in bed with the government. How, for starters 501-3C. Now the government runs the show to support filthy lucre wanted and loved by the churches. Because everyone will stop giving if they can"t get tax breaks. Remember teachers will receive a greater condemnation.

Why did the churches let Kent Hovind spend 10 years in jail and say nothing? I did what I could, up to and including calling and emailing Chuck Baldwin. Kent Hovind even called me on the phone when he got out. That was totally wrong and done to shut him up. Why? Because he was uncovering the "suppression of truth in unrighteousness".

Look up what happened in Texas when dinosaur and human footprints were uncovered by Richard Dawkins group. I think that video is put up by Trey Smith.

This country better wake up and get some righteous indignation. Be angry and sin not. I've said more than I should have, but I'm having a hard time feeling sorry.

Blessings to all, Scooter
 
Major, since you mentioned the ESV... here is how they translated these verses

1 Peter 3:18-20​

English Standard Version​

18 For Christ also suffered, once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
Verse 19 tells us that Jesus' spirit went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. Verse 20 tells us who those spirits are and why they were in prison.

Mormonism teaches that the dead will be given a second chance to receive the Gospel and be saved, but that is utterly false.

There were two classes of captives in Sheol. Jesus paints a clear word picture of that place and those who were within both sides of the divide that existed in that place. Luke 16 is where we can read about that place and the people who were in torment, and those who were on Abraham's Bosom, which was a pleasant place until Jesus came to lead those in that captivity to Heaven.

The OT saints were held in Abraham's Bosom until the fullness of their redemption was completed on the cross. Before that shed Blood of Christ, they had only the sin covering of the sacrificed animals. They could not enter into Heaven until Jesus said, "It is finished" and they were THEN washed by His Blood, which is the only Blood that truly atoned for their sins. Please keep in mind that the Mosaic Law established only the "shadows" of things to come. Shadows can never effect salvation. If that were the case, then Christ died in vain.

The other captives Christ may have preached to were the lost, so that they would then know that His promise of redemption for the faithful, which likely compounded their suffering for having rejected Him and all that pointed to Him. Nobody gets a second chance after having passed from this life after the point of accountability.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Notice it doesn't say, "...but after this the second chance and THEN they judgement..." There are those who inject that into the text, but it clearly is not there in the Greek.

MM
 
Mormonism teaches that the dead will be given a second chance to receive the Gospel and be saved, but that is utterly false.

There were two classes of captives in Sheol. Jesus paints a clear word picture of that place and those who were within both sides of the divide that existed in that place. Luke 16 is where we can read about that place and the people who were in torment, and those who were on Abraham's Bosom, which was a pleasant place until Jesus came to lead those in that captivity to Heaven.

The OT saints were held in Abraham's Bosom until the fullness of their redemption was completed on the cross. Before that shed Blood of Christ, they had only the sin covering of the sacrificed animals. They could not enter into Heaven until Jesus said, "It is finished" and they were THEN washed by His Blood, which is the only Blood that truly atoned for their sins. Please keep in mind that the Mosaic Law established only the "shadows" of things to come. Shadows can never effect salvation. If that were the case, then Christ died in vain.

The other captives Christ may have preached to were the lost, so that they would then know that His promise of redemption for the faithful, which likely compounded their suffering for having rejected Him and all that pointed to Him. Nobody gets a second chance after having passed from this life after the point of accountability.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Notice it doesn't say, "...but after this the second chance and THEN they judgement..." There are those who inject that into the text, but it clearly is not there in the Greek.

MM
Hello MM,
I have a nice leather ESV study bible but don"t use it because so many in my wifes family are KJV only that if you quote from anything else they refuse to accept it. Also I would prefer red letter and it isnt. Would you trust the study notes? I ask because I really like the upgrade and could get a red letter reference instead.
Thanks, Scooter
 
Since evil is a perversion of good, evil can't exist on its own. Like their isn't any such thing as a flash-dark. Darkness is an absence of light. So God can't look on evil........................I would say hell is a complete absence of good. So without good how can evil continue? See what I mean? The Bible is an inch thick and a light year deep.

He upholds all things by the word of his power. Go to you-tube and look up quantum mechanics wave particle duality. You will set in awe of what he can do. I'm not saying you don"t already understand hes infinite. But watching that to me shows there are things we aren't suppose to know As Jesus said "with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible".

Far above my understanding. Like the saying a God small enough for me to understand, wouldn't be big enough to do me any good. Thats why I've quit putting limits on what he can do.

There is a lot we don't understand. For instance I'm sure satan is smarter than we, but somehow God blinded him into letting Jesus be crucified. When the Lord said "it is finished" I'll bet it hit satan and he said boy I blew it!!

I know in whom I have believed and mostly can only see his work in the rear view mirror.

Have a great day, Scooter
You said..........
"So without good how can evil continue? See what I mean?"

Yes I do! I do not see any "good" in hell because there will be NO good in hell.
 
Mormonism teaches that the dead will be given a second chance to receive the Gospel and be saved, but that is utterly false.

There were two classes of captives in Sheol. Jesus paints a clear word picture of that place and those who were within both sides of the divide that existed in that place. Luke 16 is where we can read about that place and the people who were in torment, and those who were on Abraham's Bosom, which was a pleasant place until Jesus came to lead those in that captivity to Heaven.

The OT saints were held in Abraham's Bosom until the fullness of their redemption was completed on the cross. Before that shed Blood of Christ, they had only the sin covering of the sacrificed animals. They could not enter into Heaven until Jesus said, "It is finished" and they were THEN washed by His Blood, which is the only Blood that truly atoned for their sins. Please keep in mind that the Mosaic Law established only the "shadows" of things to come. Shadows can never effect salvation. If that were the case, then Christ died in vain.

The other captives Christ may have preached to were the lost, so that they would then know that His promise of redemption for the faithful, which likely compounded their suffering for having rejected Him and all that pointed to Him. Nobody gets a second chance after having passed from this life after the point of accountability.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Notice it doesn't say, "...but after this the second chance and THEN they judgement..." There are those who inject that into the text, but it clearly is not there in the Greek.

MM
Yep.
 
Origen,

See what I mean?

I will look at everything posted. However if I were satan I would pervert the teachings in seminary. There is more nonsense spewed from pulpits across the country than we can imagine. Why? Because like satan everyone has the answer. Look at Joel O., he fills an old football stadium. We have lost Charles Stanley, Chuck Missler, Henry Morris, D. James Kennedy, Michael Heiser, and I'm sure I could think of many more. Almost David Jeremiah.

Major, this isn't relating to you, however why aren't the churches being persecuted? I mean in this country. Because most are in bed with the government. How, for starters 501-3C. Now the government runs the show to support filthy lucre wanted and loved by the churches. Because everyone will stop giving if they can"t get tax breaks. Remember teachers will receive a greater condemnation.

Why did the churches let Kent Hovind spend 10 years in jail and say nothing? I did what I could, up to and including calling and emailing Chuck Baldwin. Kent Hovind even called me on the phone when he got out. That was totally wrong and done to shut him up. Why? Because he was uncovering the "suppression of truth in unrighteousness".

Look up what happened in Texas when dinosaur and human footprints were uncovered by Richard Dawkins group. I think that video is put up by Trey Smith.

This country better wake up and get some righteous indignation. Be angry and sin not. I've said more than I should have, but I'm having a hard time feeling sorry.

Blessings to all, Scooter
Didnt Mr. Hovind go to jail for failing to pay the Internal Revenue Service more than $470,000 in employee taxes.??????

I am not siding with anyone but didn't he have a trial and He was found guilty in November 2006 on 58 counts, including failure to pay employee taxes and making threats against investigators????
 
Origen,

See what I mean?

I will look at everything posted. However if I were satan I would pervert the teachings in seminary. There is more nonsense spewed from pulpits across the country than we can imagine. Why? Because like satan everyone has the answer. Look at Joel O., he fills an old football stadium. We have lost Charles Stanley, Chuck Missler, Henry Morris, D. James Kennedy, Michael Heiser, and I'm sure I could think of many more. Almost David Jeremiah.

Major, this isn't relating to you, however why aren't the churches being persecuted? I mean in this country. Because most are in bed with the government. How, for starters 501-3C. Now the government runs the show to support filthy lucre wanted and loved by the churches. Because everyone will stop giving if they can"t get tax breaks. Remember teachers will receive a greater condemnation.

Why did the churches let Kent Hovind spend 10 years in jail and say nothing? I did what I could, up to and including calling and emailing Chuck Baldwin. Kent Hovind even called me on the phone when he got out. That was totally wrong and done to shut him up. Why? Because he was uncovering the "suppression of truth in unrighteousness".

Look up what happened in Texas when dinosaur and human footprints were uncovered by Richard Dawkins group. I think that video is put up by Trey Smith.

This country better wake up and get some righteous indignation. Be angry and sin not. I've said more than I should have, but I'm having a hard time feeling sorry.

Blessings to all, Scooter
You said...............
"There is more nonsense spewed from pulpits across the country than we can imagine. Why? Because like satan everyone has the answer."

Well, I can not argue that however, there is a whole lot thrown out on Christian forum sites as well. Look at some of the stuff right here.
 
Hello MM,
I have a nice leather ESV study bible but don"t use it because so many in my wifes family are KJV only that if you quote from anything else they refuse to accept it. Also I would prefer red letter and it isnt. Would you trust the study notes? I ask because I really like the upgrade and could get a red letter reference instead.
Thanks, Scooter

Scooter, I'm not one to say that there is no English version of the Bible that cannot provide an opening for Holy Spirit to work in a life to bring them understanding and knowledge. I personally prefer the KJV, but I also delve into the Greek NT and the Greek Septuagint OT texts for deeper study rather than to rely on commentaries and other sourcing for study notes since they all disagree with one another on many points. I also make use of the Masoretic Hebrew texts, but not before the Greek Septuagint since it is much older than the Masoretic Hebrew texts.

That may seem overwhelming to many, but please understand that many online resources allow for anyone who speaks only English to study like a scholar.

Interestingly, the KJV-only gang mostly ignores the preamble written by the KJV translators where they stated that they did not consider the KJV to be the "best" translation at the time of its 1611 publication. Dare anyone seek the absolute superior way of studying scripture, they need only follow this:

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Seduction comes in many forms and from many sources, but the One Source who is absolutely reliable is the Lord's own Holy Spirit, Who will never teach any lies, as promised.

MM
 
You said...............
"There is more nonsense spewed from pulpits across the country than we can imagine. Why? Because like satan everyone has the answer."

Well, I can not argue that however, there is a whole lot thrown out on Christian forum sites as well. Look at some of the stuff right here.
I agree my friend.
 
Scooter, I'm not one to say that there is no English version of the Bible that cannot provide an opening for Holy Spirit to work in a life to bring them understanding and knowledge. I personally prefer the KJV, but I also delve into the Greek NT and the Greek Septuagint OT texts for deeper study rather than to rely on commentaries and other sourcing for study notes since they all disagree with one another on many points. I also make use of the Masoretic Hebrew texts, but not before the Greek Septuagint since it is much older than the Masoretic Hebrew texts.

That may seem overwhelming to many, but please understand that many online resources allow for anyone who speaks only English to study like a scholar.

Interestingly, the KJV-only gang mostly ignores the preamble written by the KJV translators where they stated that they did not consider the KJV to be the "best" translation at the time of its 1611 publication. Dare anyone seek the absolute superior way of studying scripture, they need only follow this:

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Seduction comes in many forms and from many sources, but the One Source who is absolutely reliable is the Lord's own Holy Spirit, Who will never teach any lies, as promised.

MM
Amen MM,
I have a hardcover Septuagint to look into. And you are 100% correct on the commentary.

The one I'm marking and putting labeled tabs in for my children is a Henry Morris study bible. That man had an abundant love for the Lord and his notes ................well if there is an error it was because he made a mistake, not to mislead.

Bess all, Scooter
 
Why did the churches let Kent Hovind spend 10 years in jail and say nothing? I did what I could, up to and including calling and emailing Chuck Baldwin. Kent Hovind even called me on the phone when he got out. That was totally wrong and done to shut him up. Why? Because he was uncovering the "suppression of truth in unrighteousness".

Look up what happened in Texas when dinosaur and human footprints were uncovered by Richard Dawkins group. I think that video is put up by Trey Smith.

This country better wake up and get some righteous indignation. Be angry and sin not. I've said more than I should have, but I'm having a hard time feeling sorry.

Scooter, I wouldn't get wrapped up around the axel of consternation over Hovind and other seemingly incongruous acts and outplays that happen to go against our personal likings for how we think things should be. God allows many things in the lives of those whom we may love and admire, but the bottom line is that God is in control. Scripture ways to us that the Lord takes notice of even sparrows when they hop on the ground.

Hovind being in prison served a purpose the Lord had in mind. He ministered to some in there, perhaps in ways they would never have been reached as effectively by anyone else in that place. (shrug) I don't know about any of that. What I DO know is that the Lord never allows anything that He doesn't want to allow. He directs the affairs of man, and the Church as a whole still is the one and only force within the hands of men that the gates of Hell cannot prevail against.

You have criticized the man-made church organizations and their lack of action in relation to Hovind and a host of other isuues at which we may point a finger. Please don't expect too much from them, for they are purely man-made, not God-breathed. The Lord uses them for His own purposes when He so chooses, for the Lord did not die for what man fashions with his own hands. The Lord died for the world as a whole that those who would can come to Him for their salvation as the only Source for such.

The only worthy cause is the cause of Christ for lost souls and praying for those under persecution for the name sake of Christ Jesus, THAT is indeed the force against the gates of Hell that cannot prevail. Our prayers for ALL the saints are powerful and effective, whether we see each and every deliverance or not, and we don't. Our ability to see is very limited. Just knowing the Lord is at work, and has our prayers and tears stored up before His Throne, that is so very comforting...or it should be, speaking generally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

MM
 
Scooter, I wouldn't get wrapped up around the axel of consternation over Hovind and other seemingly incongruous acts and outplays that happen to go against our personal likings for how we think things should be. God allows many things in the lives of those whom we may love and admire, but the bottom line is that God is in control. Scripture ways to us that the Lord takes notice of even sparrows when they hop on the ground.

Hovind being in prison served a purpose the Lord had in mind. He ministered to some in there, perhaps in ways they would never have been reached as effectively by anyone else in that place. (shrug) I don't know about any of that. What I DO know is that the Lord never allows anything that He doesn't want to allow. He directs the affairs of man, and the Church as a whole still is the one and only force within the hands of men that the gates of Hell cannot prevail against.

You have criticized the man-made church organizations and their lack of action in relation to Hovind and a host of other isuues at which we may point a finger. Please don't expect too much from them, for they are purely man-made, not God-breathed. The Lord uses them for His own purposes when He so chooses, for the Lord did not die for what man fashions with his own hands. The Lord died for the world as a whole that those who would can come to Him for their salvation as the only Source for such.

The only worthy cause is the cause of Christ for lost souls and praying for those under persecution for the name sake of Christ Jesus, THAT is indeed the force against the gates of Hell that cannot prevail. Our prayers for ALL the saints are powerful and effective, whether we see each and every deliverance or not, and we don't. Our ability to see is very limited. Just knowing the Lord is at work, and has our prayers and tears stored up before His Throne, that is so very comforting...or it should be, speaking generally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

MM
Thankful for your thoughts MM. Everyone here seems pretty level headed and I enjoy different opinions and discussions. I will certainly think over your advice. I spent 42 years as a high voltage EE/Electrician so I'm very thick skinned and speak out more forcefully than intended sometimes. You are spot on about the preaching that KH did in prison. After retiring and getting time to see the state of our country, I get angry about things but then remember God is in control.
Bless everyone in this forum, Scooter
 
Amen MM,
I have a hardcover Septuagint to look into.
The Septuagint is important but keep in mind it is just a translation. Sometime the translation is very good other times not so much. Also note just like N.T. manuscripts, Septuagint manuscripts differ from one another.
 
Thankful for your thoughts MM. Everyone here seems pretty level headed and I enjoy different opinions and discussions. I will certainly think over your advice. I spent 42 years as a high voltage EE/Electrician so I'm very thick skinned and speak out more forcefully than intended sometimes. You are spot on about the preaching that KH did in prison. After retiring and getting time to see the state of our country, I get angry about things but then remember God is in control.
Bless everyone in this forum, Scooter

I wasn't a high voltage lineman, but rather a low voltage electrician in the IBEW for some years. I understand about the thick-skinned syndrome. Being around rough crowds in that sector does have its effects. After getting laid off from that, I got my Electrical Engineering degree to start a new path at the age of 43. The Lord does indeed have a multitude of paths for us all to travail individually.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM
 
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