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HELP -mjs

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. For most of us, it is time to stop asking God for help. He didn't help us to be saved, and He doesn't intend to help us live the Christian life.

    Immaturity considers the Lord Jesus a Helper. Maturity knows Him to be Life itself. Dr. J. E. Conant wrote, "Christian living is not our living with Christ's help, it is Christ living His life in us. Therefore that portion of our lives that is not His living is not Christian living; and that portion of our service that is not His doing is not Christian service; for all such life and service have but a human and natural source, and Christian life and service have a supernatural and spiritual source." Paul insisted, "For to me to live is Christ"; and, "I can do all things through Christ" (Philippians 1:21; 4:13a).

    Wm. R. Newell said, "Satan's great device is to drive earnest souls back to beseeching God for what God says has already been done"! Each of us had to go beyond the "help" stage for our new birth, and thank Him for what He had already done on our behalf. God could never answer a prayer for help in the matter of justification. The same principle holds true for the Christian life. Our Lord Jesus waits to be wanted, and to be all in us and do all through us. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him" (Colossians 2:9-10).

    God is not trusted, not honored, in our continually asking Him for help. In the face of "my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:19), how can we beg for help? Our responsibility is to see in the Word all that is ours in Christ, and then thank and trust Him for that which we need.
    Sooner or later we must face up to what F. J. Huegel declares: "When a Christian's prayer life springs from a right position (a thorough adjustment to Christ in His death and resurrection), a vast change in procedure follows. Much of the mere begging type (though of course asking is always in order for the Lord says, 'Ask and ye shall receive') gives way to a positive and unspeakably joyous appropriation. Much of our begging fails to register in heaven because it fails to spring from right relations with the Father in union with Christ in death and resurrection: in which position one simply appropriates what is already his. 'All things,' says the Apostle Paul, 'are yours. And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's' (1_Corinthians 3:21,23)."

    Since "...without faith it is impossible to please him" (Hebrews 11:6a), we might consider several more strong but true statements to further clarify the attitude of faith that does please His heart.

    "In our private prayers and in our public services," Dr. A. W. Tozer writes, "we are forever asking God to do things that He either has already done or cannot do because of our unbelief. We plead for Him to speak when He has already spoken and is at that very moment speaking. We ask Him to come when He is already present and waiting for us to recognize Him. We beg the Holy Spirit to fill us while all the time we are preventing Him by our doubts."

    Dr. S. D. Gordon admonished: "When you are in the thick of the fight, when you are the object of attack, plead less and claim more, on the ground of the blood of the Lord Jesus, I do not mean, ask God to give you victory, but claim His victory, to overshadow you."

    Watchman Nee startles many by saying, "God's way of deliverance is altogether different from man's way. Man's way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God's way is to remove the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence, something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it, then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power.

    "'If only I were stronger,' we say, 'I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper,' and so we plead with the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control. But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God's means of delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. This is surely a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action."

    The believer does not have to dig for help. He does have to thankfully appropriate that which is already his in Christ; for, "...the just shall live by faith..." (Hebrews 10:38a). And dear old Andrew Murray encourages us with, "Even though it is slow, and with many a stumble, the faith that always thanks Him -- not for experiences, but for the promises on which it can rely -- goes on from strength to strength, still increasing in the blessed assurance that God himself will perfect His work in us (Philippians 1:6)."
     
    aha likes this.
  2. "Don’t ask for victory.... claim the victory"

    made me ponder on how perfect in faith is the “Lord’s prayer”….

    thanks chaplain….
     
  3. Hmmm. The title of your thread seems to be dis-jointed with what you posted in the thread.

    Are you implying that salvation was OUR doing and not God's, if according to you, He did nothing to help save us? Are you implying that God just sits back and watches us run around like lost dog's with no intention of helping us live Christian lives?

    Salvation was completely God's work and it is He who brings us to salvation. The Christian life is one where faith is built up through the work of the Holy Spirit within us - the help of God Himself. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit to guide us and comfort us. Jesus promised never to leave us as orphans.

    David himself said his help comes from the Lord. Do I need to quote all the Psalms and prayers of the great men of faith in the Bible where they turned every time to God for help in their time of need. Even Jesus turned to God the night before His death ASKING GOD FOR HELP but still deeply aware that God's will comes first.

    You seem to have posted some quotes from famous evangelists yet they are taken out of context to try and make your point. The fact that you pridefully state that people who go to Jesus for help are immature Christians. I would state that mature Christians realise rightfully that Jesus is life itself and they turn to Him for help because He is the only solution to our problems.

    All our needs can be and should be brought to Jesus - let Him decide what needs He will answer, not you!
     
  4. Agreed.

    I would encourage our friend OP to get away from the copy and pasting of spiritual lessons and go the practical lessons of life.

    But that is just me.
     
  5. Unfortunately some "theologians" (mostly the liberals) just theorise over other theologians work and sometimes hold it higher than scripture. The interpretation of scripture is never more authoratative than scripture itself. We should always remember that the Gospel message is a simple one - one normal folk can understand.

    Salvation is not just a once off occurance and God leaves the picture leaving behind the Bible as a quassie magical spell book we can just whip out at every need and claim everything in His name. Salvation is an ongoing work of God in us through the Holy Spirit. God works in us and through us in Love. I dont know where I would turn too if I thought God would not help me in my time of need. I turn to Jesus every time when I need help (daily) and if that makes me an immature Christian then so be it. I would rather be considered an immature Christian by man than a "mature" Christian who thinks God does not help and tries to get through life by naming and claiming.
     


  6. I also got the same reaction initially : )

    I brushed it aside as the first line or the Title is usually important to get people’s attention….

    You know it better I would say, you are in marketing field as well ! : )

     
  7. Hi Kevin. I wanted to comment on this: "For most of us, it is time to stop asking God for help. He didn't help us to be saved, and He doesn't intend to help us live the Christian life."

    He didn't help us to be saved means we have nothing to do with the production of salvation, just in the receiving by accepting it.
    The same goes for everything we do that is of God. We're to live by Him using us, not us using Him. In this way it's all Him "working in us (esp. in times of need) both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure" (Phi 2:13).

    Hi Major. I post these materials because I learn much from them and this makes we want to share it.
     
  8. I must say Netchaplain, your effort in your posts is commendable. But at the same time I must agree with Kevin and Major. It is risky to study books from man when we have the book from God.

    Regarding your first two paragraphs; I have heard similar teaching from those believing once saved, always saved.
    This would only apply if you believed in eternal salvation. For those believing they must carry their cross and work out their salvation daily in fear and trembling before a holy God, ever aware of not continuing in an extremity of un-repentant sin that we make shipwreck of our salvation....we NEED to ask God our Father for constant help! We needed The Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us! We hope He is just and faithful to keep us from evil and forgive us when we repent of our sins and live the Christian life.

    I dont like how you used the word 'using' here. Do you ''use'' your child? and do you expect him to not ''use'' you?

    My conclusion with those believing once saved always saved was that when we as Christians sense the presence of God and have that confirmation from The Holy Spirit that we are 'in Christ', we take our position for granted and assume its the norm. When it is not. There are many Christians battling to keep their faith. Many Christians have become addicted to extremities of sin and are fighting for their lives to hold onto salvation! God definitely tries His best and bends completely over to help, but sometimes even the best God can do is not good enough to change someones evil desires. So sad.
     
  9. Thanks KingJ for you reply and God's blessings to you. I'm one who does not believe we keep ourself saved but that Christ saved us and therefore only He can keep us saved. If we eventually start living in sin again it's evidence we were never in Christ. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." 1 John 2:19.
     
  10. Net, trust me on this :). You believe you are eternally saved because you are extremely close to Jesus. You love Him and draw close to Him, that makes it so easy for Him to overwhelm you with His presence. The odds of you losing your salvation is most likely 0.0001%. But we need to be careful of preaching once saved always saved as gospel. If Christians continue in an extremity of unrepentant sin they will lose their salvation. It is not God's doing but ours. We are not yet married, but are engaged to Christ.

    I see our earthly marriage to our partner as the best example. Because we love our wife we won't commit adultery. The thought of how someone else could do it is beyond us. We tell ourselves that if someone can commit adultery they never loved their wives. Which is true in many instances. Especially where the unfaithfulness took place immediately before or soon after the marriage. But, can we say that we won't ever commit it? Our wives can forgive us for not washing the dishes, swearing, having heated arguments, punching holes in doors repeatedly. A loving couple will survive and be able to 'put up' with many hardships. But will it survive consistent adultery? Adultery is an extremity of sin to your wife. A good wife who loves you a lot will forgive you if you are unfaithful but have true remorse. But what if you are unfaithful repeatedly for a period of six months? You have given yourself 'over' to another woman. Your wife cannot anytime in the near future trust your repentance is sincere. You have made shipwreck of your marriage. What we have going for us, is a perfect partner. Jesus will never leave nor forsake us. He will forgive us 7x70 times a day for sincere repentance and like the prodigal son, chase after us with His workers when we run away. But when we continue in an extremity of sin. WE are forcing a change of our hearts desire, to serve our flesh and not abide in Christ.

    Mat 24:10-13, 1 Tim 1:18-19, 1 Tim 6:20-21, 2 Pet 3:17, Rev 2:4, Rev 2:11, Rev 3:5.
     
  11. If man can force a change in his heart…away

    then for all intent and purposes…. he can force a change in his heart….. to go back again.

    Is that what your statement implies?

    Or if am mistaken of what you meant, kindly explain more….sorry, but this verse comes to mind…

    GAL 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
     
  12. Yes! just like the prodigal son.
     
  13. Hi brother KingJ and God's blessings to you! I appreciate your mannerism because it reveals an atmosphere of neighborly love, which I believe is the primary fruit of loving God (1 Jo 4:20). I realize it can be difficult to understand how we can know that we have eternal life but would you like to know if you could? I say this because I believe scripture definitely reveals that God wants us to be assured of it, as John wrote, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." (1Jo 5:13).
     
  14. In essence what we are discussing here is the theory of Calvanism (We cannot lose our salvation) and Armenainism (salvation can be lost). Both these theories are accepted beliefs within the greater church and both have excellent scripture to back them up. Over the years many theologians have tried to balance the two or harmonise them - nobody has been able to do that yet because both theories have excellent scriputures on which they are based. A professor at the university where I am studying said this "We should take comfort in the scriptures that promise Jesus will never let those go who God has given Him but never be so arrogant to ignore the warnings of apostacy". By arrogant he was referring to those who believe that because they are saved they can have licence to keep on sinning - such people where never saved in the first place.
     
  15. Christs love for us was never meant to be so complicated. We are to come to him like children, and YES children do mature, but we are and will always be his children.
    Some folks just like to be argumentative I think. Some just like to be right all the time by going on and on with historical references and build on the thoughts of former saints. I dont need to be right in the eyes of other men and women, I just love Jesus. It's very simple.

    We all have a choice.

    The bible says, "A dog returns to its vomit" but as a new creation I live on the promise, "It is done".
     
  16. I like your posts Kevin and HolyGardenMaide. I like keeping in check why I share scripture and its doctrines and everything I do. Why we do what we do has priority over everything (how we do it) and it should be out of neighborly love because this is the primary fruit of loving God. "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" 1John 4:20. It's as if keeping the second great command is how we keep the first great command. (Mt 22:38, 39).
    If your saved you can believe in temporal or eternal salvation without effecting possessing salvation, but we realize both can not be correct. Our beliefs which are beyond the point of being saved effects our growth to maturity in our faith (Eph 4:13) and it's important want to know more, within moderation, than just how to be saved. "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (Heb 6:1, 2). I would like to comment on these replies later. Hid With Christ <><
     
  17. Christ the "Sayer" and the "Doer"! I wonder what he thinks of this conversation?? 0:) God must really love simple minded people, fat bottomed girls, and sinners cause he sure made alot of them!
     
  18. Correction.."US"!
     
  19. BUT when the prodigal son was in the pig pen (sin)..........was he still his father's son?

    If he had died in that pig pen, would he have still been his father's son?

    YES he was astranged from his father. YES he was in sin. YES he would have suffered a loss. BUT would he have ever stopped being his father's son?
     
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  20. God love ya my brother, but I am of the belief that our salvation can not be lost.

    I say that for many reasons but the first and foremost of those is this..........Since I had NO part in obtaining my salvation, how can I have any part in losing what I did not obtain.???
    The Arminian position is correct in saying there are eternal consequences to our actions, that it matters how a person lives, that there should be fruit in a Christian’s life, and that it’s not enough just to have prayed a prayer, repeated some words from a booklet, or walked up an aisle. We are what we DO...not what we say we are. James confirms that by telling us that.................
    "Faith without works is dead".

    The Calvanist “eternal security” position is correct in saying that salvation is a work of God on our behalf, requiring only our trust in Christ, which itself is empowered by God and not the result of any virtue in us. Salvation does not requiring our good works in the past or the future or the present. If it did, the finished work of Christ would be insufficient, and the doctrine of depravity would be invalid.

    Scripture teaches that God is deeply concerned not simply about whether we end up in heaven but how we have served him since becoming Christians, and whether we have earned through those works eternal reward (1 Corinthians 3). The latter passage clarifies that Christians can “suffer loss” in eternity, but that this is not the loss of salvation but reward (“he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames,” 1 Cor. 3:15). However, it is wrong to conclude this is an insignificant loss and all that matters is whether a person is saved. No, for the saved person the loss of eternal rewards is a huge and significant loss, and should be considered by anyone who believes that salvation can be lost.
     

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