GENESIS - The Seedbed Of All Bible Doctrines

Prim90 said:
Really you don’t believe that we be in a very special place . We be in a very special place alright considering we be the only place so far detected that be a liveable planet that contains life as we have here upon earth. The only other place would be wherever God and the angels choose to dwell. View attachment 9578 You say if those words geocentric are in the bible now is the time to show . Major that be self evident by all the passages of scripture I sent you in post 23 Geocentrism meaning that the earth does not revolve around the sun. And that is what the Bible clearly speaks of when in Joshua ( Sun stand thou still ) And with Psalms of the Sun doing it’s daily circuit and returning to do again. There be many other verses . The reality is that the bible is a very geocentric book. View attachment 9578You than go on inform us that what men thought in the earlier church eras and what the bible teaches are two different things. Well on the point of the earth being in a very special place and that it was the sun rotating around the earth and not the earth rotating around. Well the whole of Christendom was firmly agreed upon that for 1800 yrs. Maybe they just took God at his word. And what of the Jewish people themselves you could add another 2000yrs there as well. Or were they so dumb for simply taking God at his word as well ? View attachment 9578And finally you think I’m rather argumentative. and have nothing better to do. Not really but I do think and question a lot about all things. As to having nothing better to do. Well with that comment I do leave you in peace to continue your journey
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I meant when I said..."You seem to like to argue just to argue"!

You said.......
"Really you don’t believe that we be in a very special place"?

NO. I did not say that or even imply it! I said that the Bible does not teach what you are proposing which is Geocentricity?
Can you not see that you are adding your thoughts to what is being said by others?

You said...........
"Major that be self evident by all the passages of scripture I sent you in post 23 Geocentrism meaning that the earth does not revolve around the sun. And that is what the Bible clearly speaks of when in Joshua ( Sun stand thou still ) And with Psalms of the Sun doing it’s daily circuit and returning to do again. There be many other verses . The reality is that the bible is a very geocentric book."

Again, NO. That is your placing words in my mouth, AGAIN! God’s Word doesn’t say that the earth is at the center of anything.
Your mistake is reading it in a way it was not meant to be read hence your posting of those Scriptures in Joshua and Psalms.
You seem to have fallen into the trap of "Hyperbole". A hyperbole is an exaggerated statement that is not meant to be taken literally, but is used to emphasize a point.
I imagine that next you are going to tell us that the Earth is flat because of.....
Job 28:24
"For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens."

You said...............
"You than go on inform us that what men thought in the earlier church eras and what the bible teaches are two different things."

Again, NO I did not say that!. What I actually said was......"What the men of the early church THOUGHT and what the Bible teaches is two very different things!!!!

You then said..............
"you think I’m rather argumentative. and have nothing better to do."

Again, with all due respect, what I said was........
"With all due respect to you, it seems to me that you like to argue just to have something to do".
What I think is not the issue! What we ALL read from your posts is that you are in fact argumenitive on all issues.
"and have nothing better to do."........is not the same thing as " just to have something to do".
 
**************************************#3*************************************************
THE DOCTRINE OF ANTHROPOMORPHISMS
Genesis 4:14..........
"Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me."

The word anthropomorphism comes from two Greek words, anthropos, meaning “man,” and morphe, meaning “form.” In theological terms, anthropomorphism is making God in some way into the form of man. Mostly, it is the process of assigning human characteristics to God. Human traits and actions such as talking, holding, reaching, feeling, hearing, and the like, all of which are chronicled throughout both the Old and New Testaments, are ascribed to the Creator. We read of God’s actions, emotions, and appearance in human terms, or at least in words we normally accept and associate with humans.

Anthropomorphisms can be helpful in enabling us to at least partially comprehend the incomprehensible, know the unknowable, and fathom the unfathomable. But God is God, and we are not, and all of our human expressions are intrinsically inadequate in explaining fully and properly the divine. But human words, emotions, features, and knowledge are all that our Creator provided us, so these are all that we can understand in this earthly world at this time.
 
Most of you reading this probably did not know that it had a name. If fact I bet a lot of us still do not understand it.

Anthropomorphism is important because it makes your story relatable to the reader. When you create characters that have human qualities, they become real to your readers and they’ll be able to connect with them better.

The sun might be angry at night because it doesn’t get attention during that time.
The car might feel neglected if people leave things inside of its trunk.

A similar concept, anthropopathism, refers to instances where the Bible uses human emotions to describe God.

John 4:24 says this:
"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Ex. 6:6........
"Say therefore to the people of Israel, ‘I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment."

Psalms 89:10......
You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.
 
**************************************************DOCTRINE OF MAN**************************************

Genesis 1:27..........
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

We have seen that God decreed what should be made and why. Now in this verse, He makes the first of all human beings. The verse is written with a poetic structure of three lines. God creates man in his own image. In the image of God man is created. God creates both male and female.

In ancient Hebrew, it was common to state a fact and then later explain that fact. The detail of mans creation will be given in chapter 2.
That is exactly what we see here.

One meaning of being created in the image of God is mankind's unique capacity for moral and rational awareness. God made humans to be inherently different from animals. He built into us some of His own qualities; we share with Him the experience of personality, truth, beauty, meaning, will, and reason. These attributes allow us to relate to God in ways other created beings cannot. Another meaning is that humans were meant to stand as the image of God's authority on the earth as we rule over and subdue the rest of His creation.

That we are made by God, in the image of God, is what gives all men and women deep value. That point is echoed throughout the Bible. James, for instance, points out that we ought not curse human beings because they (we) are made in God's likeness (James 3:9).

Those who bear God's image should not be treated disrespectfully or discarded easily. It is not surprising, or illogical, to see that cultures which reject the idea of man's creation in the image of God are cultures which terrorize and abuse other human beings.
 
Siloam said:
This is the kind of stuff that interests me, providing it can be verified.

It has been a while since either my high school or college courses, and my difficulties with calculus ended my formal coursework in physics. Theory and experimentation can have advanced a great deal in years since 1974, so there can be a lot of which I am unaware, but a cursory search on the Sagnac effect, or the other experiments you mentioned has not revealed a good match. The closest info I found could not be cross verified, nor provided with a clearly stated result.

Can you provide references?
Click to expand...
Siloam I’ll send you what information I can gather to your message box when I’m able. Wishing you a pleasant day. Prim 🧑🏻‍🏭
 
********************************************************ANGEL OF THE LORD************************************************
Genesis 16:7...........
" And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur."

There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God ........
Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18;
Exodus 3:2;
Judges 2:1-4; 5:23. 6:11-24; 13:3-22
2 Samuel 24:16;
Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8.
The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament after the birth of Christ.
Note: In Matt. 1:24 we see "the" angel of the Lord. However, this angel is clearly the same one appearing in verse 20, which calls him "an angel." Matthew is simply referencing the same angel he had just mentioned.

There is also Matt. 28:2 where the KJV says “the angel of the Lord” descended from heaven and rolled the stone away from Jesus’ tomb.
It is important to note that the original Greek has no article in front of angel; it could be “the angel” or “an angel,” but the article must be supplied by the translators. Other translations besides the KJV say it was “an angel,” which is the better wording.

I am one of those people who believes that the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ which is a visible manifestation of God! There is NO Bible record of God the Father ever leaving heaven to come to the Earth. There is also NO Bible record of the Holy Spirit ever taking bodily form.

Exodus 3:2-14...........
"And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you."
 
Major said:
#1.........GOD. Genesis 1:1........."In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." The doctrine of creation states that God, who alone is uncreated and eternal, has formed and given existence to everything outside of himself. He did this from nothing by the word of his power, and all of it was very good. The Apostles’ Creed and The Nicene Creed state that God is the creator of the universe. The question of whether or not God created everything in the universe is a line in the sand, so to speak, that immediately divides everyone in the world into two camps: 1. those who believe in creation and 2. those who don’t.
Click to expand...

Hello Major;

The first verse in the Bible beginning with Genesis 1:1 has always aroused discussion and debate but the question always bring back the verb of this topic, whether those who believe or don't believe.

In my personal testimony I believe God created the heavens and the earth, therefore, I believe the whole Old and New Testaments.

God bless you, brother and thank you for sharing GENESIS - The Seedbed Of All Bible Doctrines


 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Major;

The first verse in the Bible beginning with Genesis 1:1 has always aroused discussion and debate but the question always bring back the verb of this topic, whether those who believe or don't believe.

In my personal testimony I believe God created the heavens and the earth, therefore, I believe the whole Old and New Testaments.

God bless you, brother and thank you for sharing GENESIS - The Seedbed Of All Bible Doctrines
Click to expand...
Thank you Bob. It is always a blessing to do these teachings and have people agree.

IMHO......whether God Created the "Heaven or HEAVENS" is nothing more than a distraction or better....a reason for thinking that there is something there which is not there. It is always apparent that when there is a lack of education, it results in "Conspiracy Theories".

Having had students from a local university point this out to me several years ago, I went to work to find out the correct answer.
So then, what we have In the original Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1 uses the plural form of "heaven," which is still the word used for "heaven" or "sky" in Modern Hebrew.

Jewish translations of the Tanakh also translate shamayin in Gen. 1:1 as "Heaven. The reason why it is CORRECTLY translated as heaven in 1:1 and 1:8 in the KJV and INCORRECTLY in the NIV is because there were heavens created one in verse, 1:1 and another in 1:8 and only one heaven is being referenced in each verse.
 
********************************************************MARRIAGE***************************************************
Thats right, MARRIAGE is 1st seen in Genesis 2:24............
"And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called [a]Woman,
Because she was taken out of [b]Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be[c] joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

God's original plan for humanity was ONE Man and ONE Woman married. May I take this opportunity to say to you all that
today’s explosive attacks on marriage are driven by a sinister plot.

Under the influence of the “father of lies”- Satan, Western culture is redefining and dismissing this foundational institution. The enemy’s tactics have been calculated and catastrophically effective.

You see, for a culture to abandon the ingrained, traditional, biblical definition of marriage, it first must question the source of that definition. This is the devil’s strategy, and it’s not a new scheme. His ploy is as old as Genesis 3...: “Did God really say?”
The strategy is simple: Use subtle questions and seemingly harmless ideas to get people to doubt, and ultimately reject, the authority of God’s Word. Undermine biblical teachings by undermining the Bible itself.

Sadly, many Christians have missed the true nature of this fight because they’ve swallowed the secular propaganda that tolerance means being neutral on social and moral issues. But according to the Bible, neutrality is impossible. Jesus says in Matt. 12:30................................
“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” Either God’s Word is the authority or it’s not.

Marriage finds its genesis in Genesis. It is in the sacred text of that first biblical book that we discover marriage’s origin, definition, and purpose. Today’s clash over marriage is fundamentally a battle over authority. Either we acknowledge the Bible as God’s Word and our ultimate authority, or we arbitrarily follow man’s word.
 
**********************************SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT******************

Most everyone will say that Jesus Christ died for all men to pay the price of their sin. He stood in our place to pay our price and that would be correct.

However......as with all things, there has to be a starting place we point back to as the place it began!

Genesis 3:21........
"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Although the text says nothing about a sacrifice, many believe that a sacrifice is implied. Animal skins had to come from an animal.

The taught is that after the first sin was committed, God wanted to show Adam and Eve that sin has consequences.
That being the case, He slew an animal and made clothes for them from the hide of the dead animal to cover their sin!

Some have even speculated that the animal was a lamb, thereby presenting a prophetical picture of Jesus, the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world. Please note that there is NO Biblical evidence that the animal was a lamb.

God had told Adam that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die,
In spite of that, Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
God should have killed them, but instead He killed an animal in their place.
The hides came from an animal so someone had to have killed it.

I realize that it is a lot to read into one single verse which says nothing other than that “God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.”

The death of an animal is never mentioned.

A lamb is never mentioned.

So it seems to me that the results are left up to us. Is this a matter of interpretation? Maybe!

What we know is that two people disobeyed God and should have died. Instead God killed an animal instead of those two people to cover their sin. From that point on to the Crucifixion of Jesus, the blood on animals was used to "cover" sin.

​

The text simply doesn’t say.

Maybe he made it.
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings Major,

I believe that Jesus suffered, crucified and died and was raised as our representative not as our substitute.

I suggest that you could be putting the wrong emphasis on Genesis 2:17:
Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV): 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There are two possibilities here. It could be understood as the very day you will die, or this could simply be equivalent to saying when if you sin you will surely die, without specifying when.

The second possibility is based upon the margin which has for "surely die", the KJV has "Heb. dying thou shalt die". This seems to suggest a process, that their sin would start a process which would eventually lead to their death. This is what the judicial sentence actually states and this was pronounced on the day they sinned:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Romans 5:10–12 (KJV): 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The animal slain in the Garden was not a substitute to replace the death of Adam and Eve as they still died, and the skins did not make Adam and Eve sinless, but these pointed forward to the only one effectual sacrifice that would accomplish this, the death and resurrection of Jesus as our representative, who would reverse ALL the effects of sin that were introduced in Eden.
2 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV): 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

We are united in the death and resurrection of Jesus and have our sins forgiven when we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and are baptised in water Acts 8:5-6,12 Romans 6:1-8 and thereafter live the crucified and resurrected life motivated by the love of Christ Galatians 2:20..

Kind regards
Trevor
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input. My focus was only on the 1st time that a substation was seen in the Scriptures. Your focus may be different and that is fine with me.

" in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. " I agrre that there are TWO possibilities here.
1. You will die immediately physically.
2. You will die spiritually.

The complete freedom of man in the Garden was restricted only by one prohibition, "Do not eat from that tree". Since Adam and Eve was yet in a state of holiness, God chose to test the moral constitution of Adam who He created by placing him in a place of perfection with only ONE restriction, As God created Adam, he was able not to sin. Ig he had not sinned he would have been confirmed in righteousness and subsequently not have been able to sin.

Instead, Adam disobeyed God, and DIED SPIRITUALLY, and fell into a state that made him not able not to sin.

The death then of Adam had to be SPIRITUAL because we know from the Scriptures that he lived another 960 years

God was within His rights to kill Adam and Eve physically the moment they disobeyed Him, but instead HE choose to kill and animal in their place as a SUBSTITUTION and that SUBSTITUTION atoned for the sins they committed.

The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew biblical text as “dying you shall die.”

Clearly then, in the context of Genesis 3, Adam and Eve died spiritually instantly—they were separated from God and hid themselves. Their relationship with God was broken.

But in Romans 5:12 we see in context that Paul is clearly speaking of physical death (Jesus’ physical death, in vs. 8-10, and other men’s physical death, in vs. 14. If we dig a little deeper we can also find the same comparison of physical death and physical resurrection in
1 Cort. 15:20-22. So both spiritual death and physical death are the consequences of Adam’s fall.

You said............
"The animal slain in the Garden was not a substitute to replace the death of Adam and Eve as they still died, and the skins did not make Adam and Eve sinless, but these pointed forward to the only one effectual sacrifice that would accomplish this, the death and resurrection of Jesus as our representative, who would reverse ALL the effects of sin that were introduced in Eden."

Correct, and I never said that they did. And I agree in that those skins, which had to shed BLOOD pointed to the coming of Messiah Jesus.

Adam and Eve were in need of saving from the immediate penalty of sin – death, so God covers their sin by accepting the death of an innocent substitute. Remember it was God who had only recently created the animals and pronounced them ‘very good’– without spot or blemish. God had to do for Adam and Eve what they could not do for themselves. They could not escape God’s Justice. They did deserve death, a penalty had to be paid – both in the short term and for eternity.

The New Testament teaches us that because we are descendants of Adam and share in his guilt (Romans 5:12, 15) we need the sinless righteousness of another, Jesus Christ, the promised seed, because our good works are not good enough to cover our debt of sin in the present or for eternity (Romans 5:17; Philippians 3:9; Ephesians 2:8-10). This Genesis 3 picture of a merciful God covering the naked sinner with the garment of righteousness, and salvation through the substitutionary sacrifice of an innocent victim really does point to Jesus Christ’s death for mankind accepted by the Just God who never allows sin to go unpunished. Jesus the Lamb of God took the punishment in our place (John 1:29).
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings again Major,

Genesis 2:17 clearly states that death was to be the punishment of disobedience, and not spiritual death. Yes, God could have carried out the execution of Adam immediately, but I cannot accept that what Genesis 2:17 is stating that they would suffer a SPIRITUAL death. Certainly as a result of their sin they were in “spiritual” trouble, suffering fear and shame. You have not mentioned the verses that I quoted where the punishment for Adam’s sin is declared, and the punishment was death:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

My guess is that you would like to avoid these verses if you believe that Adam had an immortal soul, because here Adam is condemned to die because he had sinned. Man is mortal because of sin and is destined to return to the dust. No immortal soul.

As well as Romans 5:12, which endorse that death came because of sin, another verse that teaches the same is:
Romans 6:17–23 (KJV): 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
No animal was ever effective for atonement. Only Christ’s sacrifice is the basis for reconciliation.
Killing an innocent animal is no payment for sin, either in the short term or for eternity.
The concept of substitution fails on the concept of punishing the innocent and letting the wicked go free. God is just and righteous and the Atonement is a declaration of God’s righteousness. No justice system would survive if the concept of punishing the innocent was accepted.

Kind regards
Trevor
Click to expand...
Trevor, God said that Adam and Eve would SURELY did if they ate from a certain tree.
Now, did they eat from that tree??????
Did they die when they ate from that tree?????

Genesis 5:5..........
"Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died."

Now Adam ate the fruit however, pinpointing an exact day for the Fall from this evidence is simply not possible, because only the first seven days are logged by number. We can however assume it was soon after creation because if the couple had been able to reproduce, the offspring would have avoided the inheritable consequences of original sin, and therefore death. So we can IMHO satly say that the deed was done within the 1st year of Creation.

The POINT my friend is that according to Genesis 5:5, at least another 929 years went by. So it does not appear that Adam died when he SURELY ate the fruit. That leave only 3 responces...............
1. God Lied.
2. Adam died 929 years later.
3. He died SPIRITUALLY the moment He disobeyed God and needed a sacrifice in his place of death.

The Bible lists three types of death.
1. There is physical death when the body dies.
2. A second type of death is spiritual death - a separation of the spirit from the body.
3. A third type of death is eternal death - permanent separation of humanity from God.

I guess you are working hard to make your opinion acceptable and that is OK with me. I do not agree with it but that is me.

My understanding is that Instead of punishing Adam & Eve for their sins and letting them face the consequences, the life of an innocent animal was sacrificed as a ransom payment that would cover them. When an animal was killed, this animal bore God’s judgment in the sinner’s place just as did Jeus for us.

Lev. 4:32-35........
“If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall […] lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering. Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar. And […] the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord’s food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven”.

Blood and life​

The blood of an animal symbolized its life. This is described in Leviticus 17:11: ......
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life”.

That’s why the shedding of blood was an important part of the rituals.

Hebrews 9:22.......
“Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”.

The sprinkling of blood symbolically provided cleansing and purification.

But this is not all. Ultimately, an animal can’t provide atonement. The Bible itself says so in Hebrews 10:4:......
“For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins”.

So, something else had to happen. A permanent and final solution was needed.

The ultimate sacrifice​

Animal sacrifices were not a solution in themselves. They foreshadowed another, ultimate sacrifice: the atoning death of the Son of God.

1 Timothy 2:5-6..........
“There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as a ransom for all”.

Isaiah 53:5...................
“He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed” .

Jesus died in our place, thereby bearing God’s judgment over our sins. His blood also purifies and “cleanses” us.

Hebrews 10:10..........
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” .

Jesus The Christ is the ultimate sacrifice. Whoever believes in him, is set free from God’s judgment over his sins and he is sanctified, purified, so that he can “draw near [to God] with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience” (Hebrews 10:22).

ALL of the animals sacrificed, their blood shed in the Old Test, beginning with Adam and Eve was a PICTURE or a shadow of the act the Jesus would do for man on the cross.
 
TrevorL said:
I reject the concept that Divine Justice and God's righteousness is based upon punishing the innocent so that the guilty can go free.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you call it "punishing the innocent". John 3:16 God gave his only begotten Son. Jesus could have left the garden, Peter was ready to fight the Roman guards as he took an ear off. Jesus offered himself as payment for sin.
Jesus said it this way: John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
Jesus loves us this much.
 
TrevorL said:
I can understand how you understand this, but I consider that Jesus is our representative not our substitute. He opened the way for salvation in himself and for himself, and when we identify with him with and affectionate belief in the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and are thus motivated to identify with him by baptism into his death and resurrection, we then have our sins forgiven. Our legal system does not punish an innocent man and then excuse a guilty person and then say that this is payment for sin. Possibly an extreme, but some say that God's wrath was appeased by bringing punishment upon Jesus, beating, crucifying and killing him because God considers OUR sins are upon him.
Click to expand...
Scripture says otherwise...

Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. [5] But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. [6] We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 3:18 BSB
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings Big Moose,

I can understand how you understand this, but I consider that Jesus is our representative not our substitute. He opened the way for salvation in himself and for himself, and when we identify with him with and affectionate belief in the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and are thus motivated to identify with him by baptism into his death and resurrection, we then have our sins forgiven. Our legal system does not punish an innocent man and then excuse a guilty person and then say that this is payment for sin. Possibly an extreme, but some say that God's wrath was appeased by bringing punishment upon Jesus, beating, crucifying and killing him because God considers OUR sins are upon him.

I understand Jesus is the captain of our salvation and we benefit by being identified with him by faith. Yes, Jesus was strongly motivated by his love for us, and especially for his love for God His Father, seeing that this sacrifice would be the means to honour His Father, and through this whole process the righteousness of God would be revealed.

Kind regards
Trevor
Click to expand...
Again, I find myself having to disagree with your opinions.

You said............
"but I consider that Jesus is our representative not our substitute."

1 John 2:2......“He is the propitiation for our sins…”
The core meaning of propitiation (Greek=ἱλασμός “hilasmos”) speaks of Christ as our “wrath taker”.

Hebrews 9:26........
“But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Ephesians 1:7.........
“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace”

1 Peter 2:24.........
“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed”.

All people are in need of a substitute since all are guilty of sinning against the holy God.

Romans 3:23........."All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

All sin deserves punishment because all sin is personal rebellion against God himself.

Romans 6:23........."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Beginning in Genesis 2, animal sacrifices took on the guilt of God’s people in the OT.

Those sacrifices could never fully atone for the sins of man but they POINTED forward to the Messiah that would come to die to pay for all sin. Every dove, lamb or calf killed and its blood shed was a picture of the Messiah who would come.

For that, Jesus Christ came and died in the place of his people (substitution), taking upon himself the full punishment that they deserved.
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings Big Moose,

I can understand how you understand this, but I consider that Jesus is our representative not our substitute. He opened the way for salvation in himself and for himself, and when we identify with him with and affectionate belief in the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and are thus motivated to identify with him by baptism into his death and resurrection, we then have our sins forgiven. Our legal system does not punish an innocent man and then excuse a guilty person and then say that this is payment for sin. Possibly an extreme, but some say that God's wrath was appeased by bringing punishment upon Jesus, beating, crucifying and killing him because God considers OUR sins are upon him.

I understand Jesus is the captain of our salvation and we benefit by being identified with him by faith. Yes, Jesus was strongly motivated by his love for us, and especially for his love for God His Father, seeing that this sacrifice would be the means to honour His Father, and through this whole process the righteousness of God would be revealed.

Kind regards
Trevor
Click to expand...
Trevor........I am a little confused as to why you compare the justice of God in spiritual matters with mans legal system.

You said...........
"Our legal system does not punish an innocent man and then excuse a guilty person and then say that this is payment for sin."

May I say to you that what God does is not what man does. God said that Blood must be shed if man is to be forgiven of his sins. This is transdispensational: it is true for every dispensation, no matter where you are in the Bible.

It was true of Adam and Eve: in Genesis 3:21........
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them” .

It simpley can not be denied that God killed animals and made coats of skins for Adam and Eve, and this shed blood covered their sins.

The shedding of blood is necessary if we are to receive forgiveness of our sins:
Ephesians 1:7....
“In whom we have redemption through his [Christ’s] blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”..

Colossians 1:14 affirms:.........
“In whom [Christ] we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

Blood must also be shed for people who will live beyond our Dispensation of Grace to be forgiven of their sins in Hebrews 9:11-12...
“But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building: neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us”.

Hence, we read in Hebrews 9:22b.......
“…And without shedding of blood is no remission [forgiveness].”

But, what is so special about blood? Why blood, of all things, is needed for the remission of sins? Let us search the Scriptures for the answer.

Once Noah got off the ark, notice what the Bible says in Genesis 9:1-4:.......
“[1] And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. [2] And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. [3] Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. [4] But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.”

As verse 4 teaches, blood is the source of life. God later told Israel in the Mosaic Law: .......
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul… Blood… For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off” (Leviticus 17:11,14). And Deuteronomy 12:23: “…eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.”

Now, remember that sin causes death in Romans 6:23......
“The wages of sin is death”.

James 1:15b concurs: .......
“…Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

What is the answer to sin? Blood! Blood is the solution to sin because life is the answer to death.

The sacrificial blood would give new life—it would atone, or “make man at one with God.” The Old Testament animals’ blood sacrifices could not take away sins: hence, they were only temporary (Hebrews 10:2-12). Although the cross was still future, God would credit believers with the finished crosswork of Christ, which did take away sins. When the Old Testament animal sacrifices were offered, God would apply the merits of Calvary’s cross to that particular saint. Once Christ died, the animal sacrifices were unnecessary.

Jesus, as God's Christ died a SUBSYTUTIONANY death to pay for humanities sin!

WE sinned. Jesus died for US. Trevor, I realize that you will not accept this but in fact I am speaking to those who read what we post so that they will have a proper and correct BIBLE understanding of the doctrine of SUBSTITUTIONAL ATOTNEMENT!
 
Last edited:
TrevorL said:
You did not mention which particular translation you are quoting here, and I did find the word “punishment” in a few translations, but most have “chastisement”. I can accept “chastisement” but not “punishment”. As a result of Adam’s sin mankind was to be subjected under suffering and death. Part of the purpose of suffering is to purify a remnant, called in some passages as chastisement. Chastisement may have an element of punishment on some occasions, but the overall concept is discipline and instruction. This is different to the concept of substitution where a wrathful God has to punish because of sin, and instead of punishing us He punishes Jesus instead.
Click to expand...
It was the Berean Standard Bible. It runs close to the ESV...

Isaiah 53:4-6 ESV
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned-every one-to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I find little difference in meaning between'punishment' and 'chastisement' I think you are straining at a gnat here.
TrevorL said:
Yes, Jesus suffered for us, on our behalf as our representative, not instead of us.
Click to expand...
I guess I fail to see the difference.

1 Peter 3:18 ESV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

'the righteous (Jesus) for the unrighteous (us)', sounds very much that He suffered in our stead, and yes, as our representative.
If He didn't suffer in our stead, we would have to throughout eternity.

I'm not sure what you have against the fact that He was fully obedient in our stead that we may be freely justified in His Presence.
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings again crossnote,

The following from Vine's Hebrew could help:
"One of the major purposes of the wisdom literature was to teach wisdom and mucar (Prov. 1:2). Mucar is discipline, but more. As “discipline” it teaches how to live correctly in the fear of the Lord, so that the wise man learns his lesson before temptation and testing: “Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction” (Prov. 24:32). This “discipline” is training for life; hence, paying attention to mucar is important. Many verbs bear out the need for a correct response: “hear, obey, love, receive, obtain, take hold of, guard, keep.” Moreover, the rejection is borne out by many verbs connected with mucar: “reject, hate, ignore, not love, despise, forsake.” When mucar as “instruction” has been given, but was not observed, the mucar as “chastisement” or “discipline” may be the next step: “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him” (Prov. 22:15).

Jesus did not need correction by "chastisement" or "punishment" and using this shade of meaning to support the Substitution theory seems to me to be wrong. I do not know how you view the relationship between Jesus and His Father during his trial, suffering and crucifixion. Was God angry with Jesus, punishing him for our sins?

My perspective is that Jesus was in perfect fellowship and harmony with God His Father throughout his sufferings. There was full love from the Father, and full love from Jesus the Son of God for His Father, and His love for all he came to save. He was the perfect sin, trespass, burnt and peace offering. His character and perfection became fully developed in this process, having borne the greatest of trials without sinning. The emphasis is on his spotless character, and his care and love for those around him, the thief, his mother and all those who would eventually believe in him. He was a human, subject to death, struggling against the lusts of the flesh. A major motivation was his desire to enter the Holiest, the Joy set before him, and it states that this was a major factor for him to endure the cross. And notice also that this is stated in Hebrews 12:2-3 and then the subject of chastisement, not punishment, is elaborated.

The relationship between God and Jesus is mentioned in the following:
John 13:31–33 (KJV): 31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
The above speaks of what relationship existed between Jesus and His Father, before, during and after his suffering.

One difference with my understanding is that when we die we return to the dust, and the wicked are not tortured in hell for eternity. As our representative, Jesus first establishes the way of salvation for himself, and his death is followed by his resurrection and glorification, his change from mortality to immortality. He opens the way for all those who believe in him and become identified by an affectionate faith in the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and unite in his death and resurrection by baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12.

Kind regards
Trevor
Click to expand...

I also agree with crossnote in the use of the Bearen version.

Annialiation that you posted is not Biblical in any way just as your opinion is on substitution.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top