Trevor, are you following the teachings of Duncan Heaster? He teaches the same things you say you believe. He also teaches that the Devil is not an actual being, but rather, our sinful nature. I do not agree with him. I have been trying to understand you viewpoint as I see Jesus as both representative and substitute.
GENESIS - The Seedbed Of All Bible Doctrines
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Our friend, TrevorL appears to belong to a group called Christadelphian. It is a group that rejects basic Christian concepts such as the Trinity and the immortality of the soul, a real devil and hell and so his opinions and comments would be difficult to classify even as Christian.
There are just way too many deceptive answers from Trevor. Not knowing what it means to be born again would be at the top of the list!!!!
ENOUGH!
Are you a member of the Christadelphianism sect? It is a simply Yes or NO answer.
If you say NO..........then please take the time to explain why ALL of your responses are exactly what they teach.
Now, personally....I do not care one little bit but I for one am tired of the deceitfulness and ambiguity in your answers.
Christadelphianism, like other cults and false religions, denies the deity of Jesus Christ which is exactly what you have done!
Christadelphianism teaches that Jesus was more than a man, but less than God which is exactly what you have done.
Christadelphians believe that faith in Christ is the beginning point, but salvation is not completed there which is what you have said.
Christadelphians believe in annialiationism which is exactly what you have done.
So are you or are you not?????????
Agreed. I also have been trying to wade through the vague and confusing comments from Trevor. Now, may I say to you and everyone that Jesus as God's Christ IS our Represenitive AND our Substitute and our Reconciler!
As our Substitute. He took our place when we could neither face nor bear the wrath of God for our sin. His substitution was penal. He paid the penalty for our wickedness. He suffered what we deserve to suffer. This is why the Holy Spirit says that he ‘once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God’ (1 Pet. 3:18). Having kept the law of God perfectly by his immaculate life (and that law is inward and spiritual as well as outward and moral) he satisfied the judicial demands of the broken law in his dreadful death. O how we law-breakers owe our divine law-keeper all that we are and have! It was to satisfy God’s law that he took our place and suffered our punishment. And not until he had drunk our cup of damnation to its dregs could he have cried: ‘It is finished.’ Of all deaths, there never was and never will be a death like the death of Christ. ‘D’ye know what it was – dying on the cross?’ asks John Duncan with deep emotion. ‘It was damnation, and he took it lovingly.’ And it was as our Substitute that he did so.
Then as our Reconcilier, the popular explanation of our English word ‘atonement’ as ‘at-one-ment’ (W. E. Vine) in Its ‘original sense was to reconcile.’ To make atonement, therefore, is not being at one; nor is it to compensate for wrongdoing. It is to reconcile or BRING TOGETHER! ‘It brings together those who have been at variance.’ The ‘ministry of reconciliation’ is the ministry that makes known the atoning work of Christ. The ‘word of reconciliation’ is the doctrine of atonement plus its urgent practical corollary: ‘be ye reconciled to God.’
Then Christ becomes or Representative.
The word ‘representative’ does not occur in our English translations of Scripture, it expresses the truth that in the eternal covenant of grace, in the Old Testament sacrifices and types, in his life-long obedience unto death, in his High Priestly offering and intercession, his prophetic and Kingly session at the right hand of the Father, in his Second Coming, Judgment of mankind and throughout eternity when God will dwell with his redeemed people in the new heavens and new earth, Christ is his people’s Representative in the presence of God.
In human affairs a representative is not a substitute. Whereas a substitute takes our place, a representative acts on our behalf, and so makes us present where we cannot personally be. But Christ is both. He always has represented and always shall represent his people before the face of God, the throne of grace and the judgment seat. He stands for us, and we are present in him. This means we are chosen in him, accepted in him, righteous in him, glorious in him. Whatever he is before God, he is for us. And so we are complete in him.
Always a blessing to talk with you!
If you have to explain to a person what born again means to that person, then that person is not born again!
NOPE!
Born again means that you by faith believe and accept that Jesus as the Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead, Christ as our substitute, who took the judgement for our sins to give his righteousness to anyone who would believe.
There is NO requirement of water baptism to be born again!
Sin must be paid with a sacrifice. Under the law, Hebrews 9:22 informs,......
“almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”
When we accept the salvation of Jesus Christ, the judgement for our sins is substituted with the righteousness of Jesus who sacrificed himself for the sins of the world.
This is exactly what I said.
I asked you........."Are you a member of the Christadelphianism sect? It is a simply Yes or NO answer."
Your response was.......concerning water baptism and you said......."This is where we differ".
That is the perfect example of "Deflection"!
So by your actions of NO response and instead deflection, we now know that you are a member of the cult called....Christadelphianism!
I tried my very best to be honest and respectful. I asked you as nicely as possible to tell us your positional stance or denomination position and you refused 3 times.
After the 3rd time you responded with "This is where we differ" speaking about water baptism.
So now I feel as if I need to share with those reading your opinions what your position is. It is my opinion that you are a member of the
Christadelphian sect. Having found and read your exact words posted here on "White House and Carm" forums where you are listed as supporting Christadelphian positions.
So then, the Christadelphian positions are ............
1. Jesus is not God
2. Jesus is a more than a man but less that God.
3. Works must be added to salvation.
4. Jesus was a created being with “strength of character to right some of the most appalling wrongs of his time”.
5. Christadelphians teach that Jesus, although sinless, had a sinful nature,
6. They believe Jesus was not pre-existent, and did not come into existence until He was born in Bethlehem.
7. They teach the unbiblical beliefs of the Christadelphians include the teaching that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force;
8. Man does not have an immortal soul;
9. Satan is not a personal being;
10 They belive in the annihilation of the body and soul.
11Hell is synonymous with the grave where the deceased lie unconscious.
So, now those wishing to respond to you will know why you are being deflective, deceitful and giving ambiguous answers.
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How about (without mentioning any names)... Regeneration? aka 'born again'. Can that be found in Genesis?
Excellent question!
The "New birth" and "Born Again" is a new covenant distinctive that does not seem to have taken place before the New Covenant was instituted, at least to the best of my understanding.
However......Jesus spoke of the new birth in John 3:3-5 which is surely a reference to regeneration.
There He indicated that Nicodemus should have known about the new birth in John 3:11, evidently from the teachings of the Old Testament. That seems to say that the concept of regeneration clearly does occur before the cross and that contradicts this argument.
There is nothing I know of in the Old or New Testament which says that regeneration is “a new covenant distinctive."
In the OT, only regeneration and sealing occurred at the moment of faith. Some experienced temporary indwelling. None experienced baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The same sort of thing will happen after the Rapture. The church will leave and so the baptizing ministry of the Holy Spirit will cease. Will all believers in the Tribulation be indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I imagine so, but the Scriptures don’t state this explicitly. Surely the two witnesses will be indwelt. So will the 144,000 evangelists. But neither the two witnesses nor the 144,000 evangelists will be baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit. Yet all believers in the tribulation will be regenerated.
Not even?...
Jeremiah 31:33-34
"But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days," says the LORD. "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. [34] And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins."
And
Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. [26] I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.
I don't think so. There was NO indwelling of the Holy Spirit until Christ ascended and sent the Holy Spirit.
It is difficult to arrive at any conclusion about the work of the Holy Spirit during the Old Testament period.
There are those who believe the Holy Spirit did not work in the same manner during the Old Testament age as He does today. Although it has been the same Holy Spirit all along, His methods have changed from age to age. They contend that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not universal to every believer, but was available only to certain believers.
As far as I can tell, there is no promise in the Old Testament to the believer that he will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Numbers 27:18...........
And the Lord said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, lay your hand on him".
This verse seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit is not to be found in everyone. By stating that the Holy Spirit is in Joshua, it infers He is not universally given. The Spirit is said to have come upon other individuals, such as Othniel.
I am certain that the Holy Spirit "Came Upon" individuals to help them complete the task they were called to do.
David comes to mind and Daniel are two examples.
Both Jeremiah and Ez. have a common thread and the New Testament tends to fill out the prophetic promises of Jeremiah and the other prophets rather than to fulfill them. It’s as if Jeremiah gives us a few pieces of a picture and the New Testament fills out the missing spaces, completing the picture of the new covenant that was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
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Sorry, I think I quoted you wrongly, I was thinking of regeneration/new birth when I cited Jeremiah and Ezekiel,
***************************************DOCTRINE OF THE SIN NATURE**************************************************************
Genesis 3:5-7...........
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Mans 1st sin brought the SIN NATURE!
Romans 5:12......
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned".
A certain minister excused bad behavior by accounting for it in terms of “infantile environment, traumatic experiences, psychological complexes and the like.” And then he added, “After preaching for fifty years I cannot help feeling that the church harps far too much on sin.”
Another minister also said...... “Paul’s words that ‘through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin’ can be dismissed as nonsense.”
I can't make this stuff up! May I say that when any man exalts the human mind to the place of deity and goes so far as to rule God out altogether, that man is on the brink of destruction. The Bible condemns human intellect as the supreme court.
The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. It began when Adam listened to Eve and ate the fruit! That started a chain of events that we are still seeing take place today.
When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.
Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally. The news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble.
Charles Spurgeon said,.......
“As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”
The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.
The sin nature is universal in humanity. All of us have a sinful nature, and it affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical.
Now some of my Pentacostal friends will argue that their sin nature has been eradicated and they can no longer sin because they are a new creature in Christ.
Folks......The sin nature of humankind is not born-again when a person receives Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior through repentant humility. Everyone on this planet sins before God. Sin still reigns in the body of the Born-Again Christian, who is a 'saved' sinner, but still a sinner, none-the-less.
That can be seen in the Apostle Paul's statement about the battle of the flesh after he was born again in Romans 7:21-25...........
"So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Genesis 3:5-7...........
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Mans 1st sin brought the SIN NATURE!
Romans 5:12......
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned".
A certain minister excused bad behavior by accounting for it in terms of “infantile environment, traumatic experiences, psychological complexes and the like.” And then he added, “After preaching for fifty years I cannot help feeling that the church harps far too much on sin.”
Another minister also said...... “Paul’s words that ‘through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin’ can be dismissed as nonsense.”
I can't make this stuff up! May I say that when any man exalts the human mind to the place of deity and goes so far as to rule God out altogether, that man is on the brink of destruction. The Bible condemns human intellect as the supreme court.
The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. It began when Adam listened to Eve and ate the fruit! That started a chain of events that we are still seeing take place today.
When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.
Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally. The news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble.
Charles Spurgeon said,.......
“As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”
The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.
The sin nature is universal in humanity. All of us have a sinful nature, and it affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical.
Now some of my Pentacostal friends will argue that their sin nature has been eradicated and they can no longer sin because they are a new creature in Christ.
Folks......The sin nature of humankind is not born-again when a person receives Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior through repentant humility. Everyone on this planet sins before God. Sin still reigns in the body of the Born-Again Christian, who is a 'saved' sinner, but still a sinner, none-the-less.
That can be seen in the Apostle Paul's statement about the battle of the flesh after he was born again in Romans 7:21-25...........
"So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."