Do Humans Have Free Will? The Answer (Of Course) Is: It Depends!

[forgiven61]

Justin Taylor

If someone asks if we have free will, you should ask at least two questions first:

1. Who do you mean by “we”?
2. What do you mean by “free will”?

Those aren’t just academic questions. Without clarifying definitions and distinctions, the discussion can’t get off the ground.
The reason we need to define “we” is that the answer changes along the lines of redemptive history, with humanity being in one of four stages:

• created
• fallen
• redeemed
• glorified

The reason we need to define “freedom” is that there are at least two very different ways to define the term:

• True freedom would be “the ability to love and serve God unhindered by sin” (Robert Peterson, Election and Free Will, 131).
• Freedom of choice or spontaneity is “the ability of human beings to do as they wish” (Peterson, Election and Free Will, 126).

Using Peterson’s discussion, I put together the following chart:

	True Freedom	Freedom of Choice
Created	Possessed	Possessed
Fallen	Lost	Retained
Redeemed	Regained a measure	Retained
Glorified	Perfected	Retained

This can also be mapped unto an older taxonomy using Latin nomenclature to describe differing relationships to moral ability:

Humans before the fall	able to sin, able not to sin	posse peccare, posse non peccare
Humans after the fall	not able not to sin	non posse non peccare
Humans after redemption	able not to sin	posse non peccare
Humans after glorification	not able to sin	non posse peccare

So to answer the question, start by asking a couple of your own, then introduce these definitions and distinctions


i ran across this article found it interesting

 

[Siloam]

I have found that it is also important to consider whose point of view.

As I mentioned in another thread awhile ago,

God created everything including TIME and thus exists outside of time. He has direct knowledge of the future and what He knows is not wrong.

Does this mean we have no free will?

Consider things from Man's point of view. We exist in the current moment. What has been has been and will not change. What will be has not happened yet and our will determines our path into the future.

While God does not make our decisions nor impels our will His perfect knowledge includes our choices.

So from God's eternal and perfect knowledge does not change and our final state is completely known to Him.

But that perfect knowledge is hidden from us since we experience time moment by moment and the future has not happened. Our future remains dependent upon our choices. To take what God knows into account, (and assert that His knowledge is never wrong and thus you have no actual choice) takes one completely out of man's view and requires God's viewpoint.

It becomes a little more complicated if one is trying to evaluate the issue of eternal security, but it really amounts to similar realizations. God's is always in complete and perfect knowledge of our choices. It still means that if one dies outside of salvation he never had it in life since God's knowledge is always complete and perfect.

 

[forgiven61]

It becomes a little more complicated if one is trying to evaluate the issue of eternal security,

we take subjects like this and make it complicated and so often instead of scripture we put our 2 cents in. it goes same with free will its there and nor does God force himself on us or expect us to be bots. he gives us the choice in salvation the whosoever shall. but our freewill is not to be used to wonder where we shouldn't. But we will i am grateful he will leave the 99 and go after the one. the good news is we can approach the throne of Grace and get mercy and help in time of need . i doubt many comments are made on this. its rather boring to the other post

 

[LearningToLetGo]

This is one of those things that appears to us as a paradox.

 

[blueskies]

If someone asks if we have free will,

If by “free will” we mean that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will.

Some choices Adam and Eve made are well documented in Genesis and the current world’s sinful state is directly linked to those choices that were made by Adam and Eve.

God created mankind in His own image, and that includes the ability make choices. An example of of choice is that we, as humans, are free to individually accept or reject God’s gifts. If this were not true then God would be the author of sin, and that’s a road I am not going down here.

As Siloam writes, God is ‘outside’ of our time. We are four dimensional beings, He is beyond four dimensions and not bound by them. He can, in a sense ‘fast forward’ or rewind our lifetime, even all of creation, at any point in Time to know the beginning and ending of our story. This is a crude analogy, but serves the purpose I think.

However, when it comes to the nature of God and His relationship to our free will, well, I believe our human understanding will only take us so far. Beyond that, we have to walk both in and by faith, in Him.

With out ‘free will’ our life, our existence and our destiny would be a cosmic puppet show. I personally can’t believe in a universe without free will anymore than I can believe in a universe without God… there would be no point, no work to be done and no meaning.

I don’t see a meaningful alternative to a Creation that does not include having free will.

 

[Jeltja]

I don't consider ontologically libertarian will to be a meaningful concept. If your own thoughts and intentions, at the least, do not exert a causal operation upon your decisions then you aren't really you. Some antinomian chaos ghost would be responsible for your choices and all personality is arbitrary.
Election is absolutely the work of God, in a more absolute and encompassing sense than mere causal intentions or logical determinism, however. God does not merely absolutely determine events he causes them to be and their parameters in all senses.
So, no, people don't have free will because no one ever could, it's not a useful term. But people are intentional and, thus, responsible. Some nebulous liberty insisted upon as a condition for responsibility is literally demanding the impossible. Only God is absolutely free from any control and acts according to a sovereign will.

 

[forgiven61]

Only God is absolutely free from any control and acts according to a sovereign will.

the words free will give those of the reformed theology heart burn . the night i Got saved the Holy spirit spoke to me saying know or never. I CHOSE THE KNOW no arm twisting no body held a gun to my head ===free will

 

[Jeltja]

the words free will give those of the reformed theology heart burn . the night i Got saved the Holy spirit spoke to me saying know or never. I CHOSE THE KNOW no arm twisting no body held a gun to my head ===free will

But your intention was determined by you past thoughts, personality and spiritual characteristics. Will, yes, there is no freedom.

 

[Siloam]

Theologians and scholars of logic have been examining the concepts of free will, omniscience of God His omnipotence and other related and cross dependent issues since the beginning. Certainly Psalms recognizes the issues.

Many wrap up these understandings (or misunderstandings) with summary statements and models. For example, there is the Calvinist TULIP acronym (for Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Calvinists often view eve the slightest deviation from the strongest interpretation of these attributes as limiting the sovereignty of God. The problem (for me) is that their acronym becomes the measuring rod against all understandings when it is only at best a human approximation.

There are other views. In addition to Calvinism (and Armenianism) there is Molinism which I came across earlier this year that uses a concept of middle "knowledge" lying between Natural Knowledge of things, which are-members of classes whose properties are those that define the class (e.g all bachelors are unmarried) changing the property (the man marrying) changes his class (he is no longer a bachelor) and Free Knowledge - things that are defined by how God uses it (and He could have done different without destroying its membership with the class. A man may marry but he remains a man. These are things that God can choose without destroying the membership with the class (The man will still be a man, even if he marries).

I am still wandering along thought processes on this, as I go it seems even more contrived than my explanation in my earlier post (#2). Maybe I am just dense.

I view a lot of this the way I view the fundamental laws of nature (which are God's laws). We look at Newtonian physics and learn many truths about how the universe works, but if we look in a different manner, other truths emerge. When we look at the very small subatomic realm we se a probabilistic universe of quantum states and motions governed by very different rules. None of this makes Newtonian physics wrong. When we look at the very large or fast, we find that Newtonian physics only approximates reality. the faster or farther one goes, the more relativistic concerns come into play, and we have to modify the Newtonian laws of motion to take relative effects in.

But just as neither quantum mechanics nor relativity negate Newton, but we choose which way of examining the universe empirically (based on what theory sheds better light) and not worrying to much about the other views until they become relevant. For edge conditions we modify one to reflect more of the others (there are relativistic versions of Newtonian mechanics).

So when evaluating many of these fundamental (with several meanings of the word 'fundamental') truths:


For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (NASB)

 

[BibleLover]

In life, we operate in two different spheres of action. The macro sphere or big picture and the micro sphere or little picture. Our everyday decisions can operate only in the micro sphere because of the limited ability of individuals to affect the big picture. Thus, we are free to choose our dwellings, clothing, diet, and occupations.

The macro sphere is beyond human control. It's governed by spiritual entities, chief of whom is God. God writes history beforehand. Therefore every decision affecting the macro sphere is ultimately controlled by God.

Humankind has freedom of will only in micro sphere.

 

[Siloam]

I have been meditating about free will and my discussion about God's unchanging knowledge and man's choices within time (see post #2).

Consider now the two witnesses in Revelation 11"

Revelation 11:3-8 (NASB)
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.


Their actions are explicitly reflected in scripture held by most believers to be inerrant. What free will do they have? Is there a constraint against their choosing to stay at home and keep a low profile rather than getting killed by the beast?

In my view, this is a special case of God’s inerrant view being miraculously divulged to us in scripture, so it is less matter of the free will of the witnesses than it is a matter of God’s viewpoint accurately reporting what will happen.

 

[Major]

Justin Taylor

If someone asks if we have free will, you should ask at least two questions first:

1. Who do you mean by “we”?
2. What do you mean by “free will”?

Those aren’t just academic questions. Without clarifying definitions and distinctions, the discussion can’t get off the ground.
The reason we need to define “we” is that the answer changes along the lines of redemptive history, with humanity being in one of four stages:

• created
• fallen
• redeemed
• glorified

The reason we need to define “freedom” is that there are at least two very different ways to define the term:

• True freedom would be “the ability to love and serve God unhindered by sin” (Robert Peterson, Election and Free Will, 131).
• Freedom of choice or spontaneity is “the ability of human beings to do as they wish” (Peterson, Election and Free Will, 126).

Using Peterson’s discussion, I put together the following chart:

	True Freedom	Freedom of Choice
Created	Possessed	Possessed
Fallen	Lost	Retained
Redeemed	Regained a measure	Retained
Glorified	Perfected	Retained

This can also be mapped unto an older taxonomy using Latin nomenclature to describe differing relationships to moral ability:

Humans before the fall	able to sin, able not to sin	posse peccare, posse non peccare
Humans after the fall	not able not to sin	non posse non peccare
Humans after redemption	able not to sin	posse non peccare
Humans after glorification	not able to sin	non posse peccare

So to answer the question, start by asking a couple of your own, then introduce these definitions and distinctions


i ran across this article found it interesting

Brother, God’s ability to know what we will do does not mean that we cannot make free will choices. God knows and works in and through our choices because God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. So, whatever you choose to do out of your own free volition is known to God before you choose to do it. But his knowledge doesn’t mean you don’t freely choose.

An illustration would be that I could arrange for my child to choose ice cream over something else and not violate his free will.
For instance, I could put a bowl of chocolate ice cream and a bowl of dirt and rocks in front of my child, and I know exactly which one the child will choose to eat. But my knowledge does not violate my child’s free will.

 

[forgiven61]

But your intention was determined by you past thoughts, personality and spiritual characteristics. Will, yes, there is no freedom.

you keep holding on to that a be a robot

 

[Major]

But your intention was determined by you past thoughts, personality and spiritual characteristics. Will, yes, there is no freedom.

Free will is the power to decide what we will do in a certain situation. However, the thing we must not forget about our choices is that they have consequences.

 

[forgiven61]

Free will is the power to decide what we will do in a certain situation. However, the thing we must not forget about our choices is that they have consequences.

free will yes but not totally free
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16

 

[Major]

free will yes but not totally free
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16

If a man uses his claim of a Christian so that he may use that as a license to continue in his sin.......he was never saved to begin with.

 

[forgiven61]

If a man uses his claim of a Christian so that he may use that as a license to continue in his sin.......he was never saved to begin with.

no disagreement there. but ya know i heard a preacher say one time they was so saved they couldnt go to hell if they wanted to.. i did find that a bit flesh sounding .. no this is not can or can not statement from me. there is just not enough teaching on this

 

[Major]

no disagreement there. but ya know i heard a preacher say one time they was so saved they couldnt go to hell if they wanted to.. i did find that a bit flesh sounding .. no this is not can or can not statement from me. there is just not enough teaching on this

I agree. That sounds like pride speaking to me.