Hey, Major,
We all love you, Pastor, and you are a blessing, but I really have think about this!
Constructive Criticism in Today's Preaching
- Thread starter bobinfaith
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Hey, Major,
We all love you, Pastor, and you are a blessing, but I really have think about this!
OK..............Times up. What think ye now???????
Yes I also think this was a good point.
I think that `truth` of Christ, His character and His purposes `ring` true for those seeking. Build a relationship with some one, showing care and interest in them, and the Holy Spirit will draw them towards the Lord. In other words, discipling/mentoring I believe is what every growing and mature believers should be about.
Who are my disciples?
What truths am I sharing with them?
How are they going in the Holy Spirit refining process?
Who are they reaching out to?
Who are my peers, the wisdom of many counselors?
These are the questions we need to ask ourselves.
Hello Marilyn;
Those are good points to ask ourselves, and I will add;
Aside from providing LOVE, serving, ministering and uplifting the church family and outreach community, it's vital to disciple through proper study of Biblical Scripture. When Spiritual growth of the Christian blossoms they become more qualified to know their Spiritual leader by their works.
It's all inclusive.
This may sound fluffy fundamental but the preacher needs to ponder on this because it is very challenging.
Hi bob,
Not `fluffy` at all but good basic solid points.
I would also like to add - that all Christians need to be equipped, (Eph. 4: 12) and teach others as you say with `a proper study of Biblical Scripture.`
`For though by this time you ought to be teachers,......` (Heb. 5: 12)
As far as I can see many people have been `taught` to leave it all to the (paid) Pastor.
I think small home groups are a good starting point for new believers to explore what the Bible says I don't think its a one size fits all though, I suppose the big church and soundbite sermons are how many are used to hearing the Bible as a hold over from the days when not many people had direct access to the written Word. There was no radio, no tv, no internet.
I have learned in all sorts of ways even done correspondence courses and mini courses on missions.
I think a pastor can encourage but he or she can't make people sit exams in scripture to ensure they've read every word like maybe they do that in Bible College. I mean in an ideal world would'n just EVERY believer be enrolled in Bible college? Then maybe everyone will end up just debating calvinism vs arminism all the time and nothing ever gets done lol.
I have learned in all sorts of ways even done correspondence courses and mini courses on missions.
I think a pastor can encourage but he or she can't make people sit exams in scripture to ensure they've read every word like maybe they do that in Bible College. I mean in an ideal world would'n just EVERY believer be enrolled in Bible college? Then maybe everyone will end up just debating calvinism vs arminism all the time and nothing ever gets done lol.
I agree that small group bible studies can be a good way to learn as long as there is a good discussion leader.
I also would say that sometimes we ignore the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that guides the mind and heart to do God's will. Through study we listen to God and the Holy Spirit assists us in truly hearing what God has to say. Through out the day the Spirit gives us discernment. Sometimes though even as Christians we ignore the Holy Spirit or lose touch with it.
A pastor is not just someone that preaches a message. They are teachers not just in word only, but in actions. They are also called to minister or serve. This is not a small task, but rather a huge task. A church can have a great many needs. The greatest of ministers seeks to serve these many needs whatever they may be. The makeup of every church is different, some might be filled with families others might be filled with mostly elderly. The demographics can take on many forms in a church all of which may change the various needs of the church.
I agree Lanolin,
The lecture type public meeting is only a few centuries old, but it has come to take the authority as `the Church.` The organisation is of man and NOT of the Holy Spirit.
It is NOT how the early believers gathered and functioned. The true`church` is a group of believers who have a close relationship with each other, appreciate each other`s gifts and function together in reaching out to others. The focus is the Lord and then outward. The `Bible College,` is the `School of the Holy Spirit,` where men and women mentor others and then they go on to mentor others.
`Paul says ..... and the things you (Timothy) have heard from me among many witnesses, (peers) commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 2)
That is all relational, and outward focused.
The focus of man`s organisations is the `business & all that entails,` and inward, gathering everyone in one spot, on one day at one time to hear one person who has all the power and control and authority.
All of man and not of God.
Shuky, darn! Are you actually saying that we can't have closeness and fellowship looking at the backs of each other's heads, sitting together like an audience, within the confines of a program orchestrated by a prescribed order of events?Now, I realize that most people enjoy that kind of gathering, and I'm cool with that. For many, it allows them to fade into the woodwork (so to speak) where nobody expects anything of them. The (c)hurch masses have not been raised up to full maturity in knowledge and spiritual stature, and to therefore function within the body of believers. I don't blame all pastors for this. After all, their job is tough when we consider our modern culture having fostered a lazy and indifferent mass of people, many of whom darken the doorways of "church" buildings to attend and support "services and programs." Some among them are wonderful and mature-in-the-faith people, but most are just nice people who smile and go through the motions, and sway with the music, etc.
MM
you have that in any type setting big church small church home gatherings etc .it takes a want to and a desire
Excuse me for interjecting.
What you say is true, however when people actually mentor others and they mentor others, (2 Tim. 2: 2)then you have rightly related people who appreciate each other, recognise each other`s giftings, make room for each other and function with each other.
And that is NOT a home group ruled over by man`s organisation.
Now, I realize that most people enjoy that kind of gathering, and I'm cool with that. For many, it allows them to fade into the woodwork (so to speak) where nobody expects anything of them. The (c)hurch masses have not been raised up to full maturity in knowledge and spiritual stature, and to therefore function within the body of believers. I don't blame all pastors for this. After all, their job is tough when we consider our modern culture having fostered a lazy and indifferent mass of people, many of whom darken the doorways of "church" buildings to attend and support "services and programs." Some among them are wonderful and mature-in-the-faith people, but most are just nice people who smile and go through the motions, and sway with the music, etc.
MM
From what you folks are sharing (red-lighted) I haven't seen everything.
I don't recall a time when a pastor would treat a gathering as an exam room, or a public meeting evolving and becoming the authority of the church, or the confines of a program orchestrated by a prescribed order of events. These are sad examples of a church gathering. I have only seen a gathering of worship, even as I have also witnessed at other worship services.
At seminary every professor and student that I have encountered shared the struggles in their ministry, but none have ever regretted enrolling and all agreed they walked away learning more about the Gospel.
God's purpose for me to enroll was not only to better myself as a disciple but also to pass my learning to others I disciple. But the most important part of my attending seminary was to tend to people.
Listening to the elders in my community and abroad, whether saved or not and their reflection of getting older, regrets from the past, financial concerns, old relationships that for years never reconciled, finding reconciliation and restoration with their spouse of 40 and 50 years, and the praise reports from those who came to Christ late in life, being grateful to the Lord for contentment, and having years left to serve Him, and so much more.
I also spend time with the middle aged here and abroad, hitting their prime in their careers, wishing they had chosen another profession, or attempting to start a new one while in their 40s or 50s, building up their security, still struggling with their marriage of 30 years plus, while others who came to Christ at 45 or 55 years of age, those who have grown in their faith, taking on new ministries, and preparing the next 10-15 years of their retirement, and so much more.
I find challenging but exciting speaking with young adults in my community and abroad, in their late teens, those in their 20s, 30s and late 30s, some are not saved and some are, planning their college studies and young careers, where they want to reside, getting their perspective of worship service, and listening to their beliefs about God, what was Jesus' purpose, doubts and questions about other religions and Christianity. The part I noticed we enjoy talking about is how they still have their whole lives in front of them, which to some of these young people is a concept to grasp. There is so much more in these discussions.
I meet with other pastors in our monthly meetings. We share that after having these conversations and visitations and sharing each other's challenges and successes, it's so good to see these people at our weekly Bible studies or Sunday worship service. It helps them get perspective, they see they're not alone, and receiving the teachings of the Gospel only enhances their worship, preaching and teaching.
Acts 1:13-15 is the example of the original reason for the season, the ongoing season to worship and celebrate Jesus who came to save his people from their sins.
At the end of the day this is why I studied and trained to be a pastor; not so I can debate church on Saturday or Sunday, but because of people.
Like I said, I haven't seen everything.
Hi Bob,
I do hear you and appreciate what you are saying. I have been privileged to sit under great teachers and see their life as well. However that is NOT the point of what we are saying. There has now come a time, (and it has been for a while) that the believers are `equipped` (as God`s word says they are to be, (Eph. 4: 12) and go out (not trammeled by business organisations) and MAKE DISCIPLES. That is what our Lord told us to do and that is what we need to see happening. It is NOT about defending one`s personal position or activities, but seeing the equipping and fruit of that as people go out to make disciples. And not just bringing someone to a meeting for the authority figure to do such.
And might I say, there are millions all over the world doing just that. Man`s organisations have been like a scaffolding, but now it is `in Christ alone` that is the focus. As the Apostle Paul warned his disciples, who then went on to make disciples themselves -
`Let no one defraud you of your reward....and NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)
`from who all the Body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)
I do hear you and appreciate what you are saying. I have been privileged to sit under great teachers and see their life as well. However that is NOT the point of what we are saying. There has now come a time, (and it has been for a while) that the believers are `equipped` (as God`s word says they are to be, (Eph. 4: 12) and go out (not trammeled by business organisations) and MAKE DISCIPLES. That is what our Lord told us to do and that is what we need to see happening. It is NOT about defending one`s personal position or activities, but seeing the equipping and fruit of that as people go out to make disciples. And not just bringing someone to a meeting for the authority figure to do such.
And might I say, there are millions all over the world doing just that. Man`s organisations have been like a scaffolding, but now it is `in Christ alone` that is the focus. As the Apostle Paul warned his disciples, who then went on to make disciples themselves -
`Let no one defraud you of your reward....and NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)
`from who all the Body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)
Hello Marilyn;
God bless you and thank you for your reply. What I read was received as literal. "The point" goes way beyond what was posted and it helps when we can establish what we're really saying at times in the most basic sense.
We need to continue this discussion so we can arrive at an understanding which I feel can be beneficial for all.
Let's not confuse my testimony as a defense, but my praise to God for what He has done in people's lives. I have been blessed to witness this and this is without a doubt, fruit.
God bless you and thank you for the manner in your reply. Let's continue to discuss this.
i dont know what tye church you all have been to.. but the churches i know people are fed and they grow . till the virus hit there was sunday morning and sunday night church and wed night Bible study . there has to be a leader the Corinthian church was famous for doing there own thing. all through the Bible there was leaders . each leader had there own position the pastor is the under Shephard under the guidance of the great shepherd/ the pastor is not the law maker. he over sees the flock . what your describing in the above is how the n.t church operates .there still has to be some type structure . other wise it would be confusion and division and we have enough of that as it is .
you get what you need going to church studying your Bible and praying. the work is outside the doors go ye into all the world we equip the saints so they can do the job
Bob, you've hit upon an Important topic that may be a good one for more preaching upon.
Worship.
You know, it seems that there is so much shallowness in so many people's understanding of the worship that is acceptable before the Lord.
Yes, we see much of the popularized understanding of worship played out in the lives of many around us within the "Christian" community, but what really is the worship that is acceptable before the Lord?
John 4:21-24
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Anything else, any other contrived means and way of "worship" is secondary, such as the type of worship many turn on like a light switch when they enter the "sanctuary," that has a timer that shuts it off at the prescribed time.
Now, please bear with me on this. There are all kinds of rabbit holes various people can lead this down into as their idea of substance for denying this ever happens in THEIR church. After all, OUR church is better than most... Much of what I hear along those lines are rooted mostly in feelings and beliefs rather than being based upon objective observations. We tend to have such strong, emotional support for our organizations and our ways of doing things, there can't possibly be anything inherently wrong with it...?
Please understand that what I'm driving at is a desire to push ministers and the people's to remain on constant vigil and sensitivity toward the Lord, seeking Him ALWAYS in how we each one may worship Him throughout EVERY DAY of each life so that, if and when we enter the "sanctuary," we need not turn on that contrived worship switch. Worship will already be such an integral part of our lives by LIVING IT in spirit, and in truth, just as Jesus said would come, and has come, with it not at all ceasing when we leave the "sanctuary."
Praise is one thing, but worship is a way of life. There are some who may disagree, and that is as it is, but I'm doing what the Lord has me doing...always challenging others to greater heights, as I want from others toward myself. Only those who strive for those greater heights above the clouds of popularity will ever understand any of this.
Worship is not a service. That's nothing but a programmatic approach, with just the right mood music and such. Hey, that stuff don't effect my worship. I desire to worship just as profoundly in a gathering as in all others moments of life...for it to be an abiding reality throughout all my life, and I know many others who believe the same.
Worship stopped in Heaven only that one time in the 30 minutes spoken of in Revelation...or so many may think.
No. It was still going on within all the lives who live by the Spirit.
Some may ask, "Reference please?" That's the implications and outflow from my quote above from John.
It should never stop. It only starts in our lives because we had a beginning, as did the angels. I want my worship of the Lord to be everlasting, even though it cannot be eternal since only the Lord is eternal.
MM
i can understand exactly what your saying and with all the so called church groups out there. i have no doubt they lack equipping the saints . this day and age it is a up hill battle trying to pastor. many congregations are like sheep astray scattered . in our are we had a church form a bible study at a restaurant called a beer and bible study . drink beer and study the Bible . i still stand by the local assembly if God is in it the anointing that destroys the yoke is there yes some churches go above what the true calling is and only care about numbers and tithes some congregations are like the man who went to work on a sheep farm. one of the sheep would not eat or drink. the hired hand tried every thing he had. to get the sheep to eat and drink. till the farmer come along told him let it alone it has the will to die . so i meet you in the middle on your post . simply because i support your right to worship and study how you want. as long as you get what you need !!
that is my 2 cents
Hello MusicMaster;
(Please expand your post)
God bless you and thank you. I'm in agreement with you and would like to respond to a couple of things you mentioned;
I can be in a room with a handful of brothers and sisters, discussing worship, praise and service and it will still be defined in various ways, but speaking for myself, I still get you when we break it down.
"Denying that our services never get that way," well, I'm not going to deny our flaws, imperfections and mechanics during worship which is actually a part of the worship. We lay all our weaknesses and short fallings before the Lord so He can reveal His glory before the body of Christ. That is truly worship.
I will give more thought to what you shared and I do appreciate your encouragement to help me press on and persevere in the church.
You defined Worship, but now I have a question for you, brother. What is your experience of attending true worship with your family?
God bless you, MM, and thank you.