Church Worship Music

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Juk, Jul 9, 2015.

  1. Well, the cross was the end of the line of Adam. Everything that man is after the flesh was dealt with there, finally and completely. It was the end of the reign of death which came in because man's nature was corrupt.

    "... but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even upon those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him to come." - Romans 5:14

    The cross brought about a change in the way that God could deal with man. From the fall of man until the cross, God is necessarily at a distance. The holiest of holies in the tabernacle was veiled. There were limitations, restrictions. The actuality of all that was in the heart of God was yet to be realised, because Christ hadn't come in yet, so God took pleasure in things which represented that which was to come: the tabernacle system. These were types, figures which show us that Christ, not Adam, was what God had in mind from the very beginning. Everything that attached to the worship of the children of Israel was a type, a symbol. In order that all these things should be set on as God intended, He gave detailed instructions. And all this was made by craftsmen, builders, musicians, perfumers, and so on. All the craft and ingenuity of man was employed in making the grandest and finest symbols - but still only symbols, nonetheless, of the real thing. They were merely shadows of what was to come.

    Then, Jesus came into the world. Not in the way that the Jews expected, not what the grand designs of the system which they had been a part of led them to expect. He came in, not in royal pomp and splendour to Jerusalem, but as a babe, a homeless, houseless stranger to Bethlehem. Then we have His life, one of humility, not of outward display in a grand way - touching the lives of needy sinners whenever they came to Him, seeking and saving the lost. Then, on to the cross, and everything that happened there. What a change we see, either side of the cross! Before it, the tabernacle system, every human talent and craft employed in the building of it. After it, in the Acts and the Epistles, we find not a single, isolated mention of any human craft, talent or ability being used in the service of God. From an earthly system which was a type, we move to a heavenly system which is a reality. Christ has secured everything, and everything for God's pleasure is bound up in that One, the One who was in God's heart from before time was - who was with Him in a past eternity.

    Now, I'm sure we can agree on the facts of the above, but you're asking what practical bearing that has on us, how it changes the way we worship. Well, if Christ is everything for God's pleasure, and He has given Himself and the Father has sent the Spirit so that features of Christ might be developed in me, for the pleasure of God... where is the room for what I am naturally? What can Adam bring that Christ cannot? In order to be a vessel filled, ready to be poured out to God in worship, I have to be emptied first, of any notion of self or the value of what I am after nature. In order to be filled, I have to gaze steadfastly on Jesus, gathering precious impressions of Him. If I start to think about what I can do of myself to worship God, I take my gaze off Christ and I become occupied with self and my own talents and abilities. I wouldn't get filled that way. No, I have to disappear in my own estimation, so Christ is all-in-all. The only way I can do that is by having Him fill my heart and soul, leaving no room for self. Notions of self-worth have to be utterly displaced by a consciousness of the peerless worth of Jesus.
     
  2. Good things to be said here concerning types and shadows, but the problem persists with individuals who over-spiritualize things. The whole entire creation is a type and shadow of the heavenly. We who love God wholly must worship with whatever we set our hand to---to do it mightily unto the Lord. It is all for the glory of God. You suggest that if I have a talent in art, I must separate that as earthly and of the flesh and that it cannot be fit to be used for the glory of God, even in worshiping my Saviour. This flies in the face of the truth that Holy Spirit moves within us to do and to speak and to will what the will of God is in any situation. This goes for musical worship as well. You are way off the mark, and distorting God's working in and through us as agents of His glory.
     
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  3. I agree Mr. Jim, we take the Word of God not on assumption, but as a matter of Truth....
    Assumption is a "tentative truth" to be taken for granted, so as decision can be made...

    I think I made no assumption is being made on the written word of God or His ways… if there is, allow me to explain : )

    The “assuming” I mentioned pertains to the assumption that a musical instrument does not add value to a worship, and to a certain extent, even distract.

    I do not believe so. I think there is a confusion of thoughts being presented: Worship is being equated with Sacrifice…..
    Jesus Christ Sacrifice on the Cross is once and for all: and i agree: nothing can be added. Nothing includes the musical instruments…

    But that is Sacrifice…

    Sacrifice is different from Worship, and I happen to agree with "cymbals", but there is time for each activity during Church Services...

    Now, it can be said that I made an assumption on the "piano"…. OK,,,, I might not be the piano, that point is that there is a there can be DISTRACTION….

    Maybe I should have reworded it as such: Yes, there may be DISTRACTIONS that was brought in to the Church by the enemy…. is that an "assumption"?

    I don’t think so:
    It was mentioned in To the Church in Thyatira... in fact: not only distractions: but a False teaching inside the Church!
    Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[c] that woman[d] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[e] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

    Yet, there can be those DISRACTIONS or even FALSE TEACHING even within the Church…. and YET, True Worshippers in it are not DISTRACTED or ”who do not hold this teaching”, and as mentioned earlier "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    "
    Revelation 2:24-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    24 Now to you I say, and[h] to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

    That is all what am trying to say : )
     
  4. Put God FIRST- allow Him to remove the things about you that hinder His plan and ways.
    He has made each of us with desires and dreams and abilities. It is up to each of us to fulfill these or not.

    As to the first part of what you are saying - I do not agree with it. Was not paul a tent maker ?
    Who gave paul this ability ?
    On another note YOU SAID (( After it, in the Acts and the Epistles, we find not a single, isolated mention of any human craft, talent or ability being used in the service of God. ))

    That simply has no meaning. God gives me a tallent or ability to build homes better then most. If it is not told to the early Christians then it is self and not God ? That makes no sense of any kind...... Dont get so legalistic that you end up as stiff as a board brother.

    Grant if I missed your point and am in deep left field then I apologies but if not....
    God Bless
    Jim
     
  5. I apologise for the length of this post! But, if a thing is worth going in to, it's worth going in to thoroughly.

    I agree that spiritualizing away portions of the Old Testament is something to be avoided. A great deal of harm has been caused by that sort of thing - mainly encouraged by people who don't want to be subject to the moral teaching of the Old Testament. However, in the case under examination here, we have to take up the typical teaching to get the good of the scripture.

    Can we use art, or music, or craftsmanship in the worship of God? Really, it's a question of what we can offer to God that will be acceptable to Him.

    It's important, firstly, to acknowledge the following facts:

    a) That there is no positive mention of or injunction to use musical instruments, make art, or craft or build anything in connection with the service of God in the New Testament. Worship is described purely in spiritual terms, and gatherings of the saints were to be times when spiritual gifts were exercised for the edification of the assembly.

    b) That there is no historical mention of musical instruments in particular in connection with Christian worship until after 600 AD.

    I think that those statements are easily verified and can be accepted as fact, whatever practical bearing it might have on us as believers.

    But first, a practical word. If we look at the activities in question, i.e. art, craftsmanship, music, we have to ask ourselves - are these spiritual activities? The answer is clearly no, because unbelievers who do not have the Holy Spirit can do all these things. An unbeliever can also appreciate art, craftsmanship and music, even religious art, craftsmanship and music. An unbeliever cannot appreciate spiritual things, they're a closed book to him. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned..." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

    That is, of course, in our time. We get quite a different picture in the Old Testament. Exodus 35 immediately springs to mind. Here we have wise-hearted women spinning with their hands (Exodus 35:25). Further down, we have a wonderful section:

    "And Moses said to the children of Israel, See, Jehovah has called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and he has filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, and to devise artistic things: to work in gold, and in silver, and in copper, and in cutting of stones, for setting, and in carving of wood, to execute all artistic work; and he has put in his heart to teach, he and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: he has filled them with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work of the engraver, and of the artificer, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in byssus, and of the weaver, even of them that do every kind of work, and of those that devise artistic work..." - Exodus 35:30-35

    How vital it was that the tabernacle be made according to the Pattern! The Holy Spirit lends Himself directly to the work, filling the master-workman in order to direct his hands in the finest of detail.

    Moving back to our day, our dispensation - have any of these things fallen by the wayside? Has any thought of God been lost? Absolutely not. Whereas then there was a physical tabernacle, and later a temple, now there is a spiritual building for the habitation of God, as Paul sets out to those at Ephesus:

    "So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone, in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord; in whom *ye* also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit." - Ephesians 2:19-22

    There is a building, and we need builders and artificers. Yet because the building is spiritual, so are the builders and artificers. We call them teachers and shepherds in our day - those gifted of the Spirit to build up, to edify this holy temple. That is one example of how what was literal for the Israelites is spiritual for us. They fought literal battles with temporal arms, but the arms of our warfare are not fleshly (2 Corinthians 10:4). In the past, believers have been drawn into imitating the Israelites and taking up arms in their own defence. We know from history how that worked out.

    In 1 Corinthians 1:28-30, we learn that God chosen "things that are not, that he may annul the things that are; so that no flesh should boast before God. But of him are *ye* in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption..."

    When the apostle refers to the "things that are", I believe he is referring to the Law and the ordinances. As a former Pharisee, he know what it was for the flesh to boast in keeping the law and the ordinances, to be self-satisfied in what *I* can do to please God. Of course, the Pharisees didn't please God in the slightest. They were self-righteous, hard, legal - they set themselves against the Lord Jesus. Not all flesh glories in that way, however. Flesh can glory and boast in anything that makes it self-reliant. If *I* can do something of myself, then I only bring glory to myself. God has annulled that by bringing in a heavenly, spiritual system. We cannot worship unless it's by the Spirit, and that means that *I* has to go so that *He* can fill me. No-one can be Spirit-filled if they are holding on to thoughts of their own ability to please God.

    I quite understand how this idea of offering what we are naturally to God in worship has crept in Christendom. As the Lord said, "And no one having drunk old wine straightway wishes for new, for he says, The old is better." (Luke 5:39). I know the tendency in myself. It's hard to accept that what we are naturally is tainted, and what we might bring naturally is fruit of the cursed ground, it's Cain's offering. What is natural is perfectly right in its place, and we mustn't fall into the trap of asceticism. Personally, I enjoy art and music. My idea of a good day out is to tour a stately home and admire the fine furniture and architecture, perhaps followed by a well-crafted meal out. There's nothing wrong with these things in their place. Cain no doubt worked very hard to cultivate his produce, and I'm sure he would've enjoyed it, and rightly so. His mistake was thinking that he could offer it to God. God wouldn't look upon it. The only acceptable offering was Abel's, the firstlings of the flock and their fat. Going further back, Adam and Eve sewed aprons of fig-leaves to hide their nakedness. It wasn't sufficient. God made them coats of skin; death had to come in, Christ in type, before they were suitably clothed. So, for all Adam, Eve and Cain's effort and labours, it wasn't sufficient for God. It had to be Christ, and Christ alone.

    The positive side - the antidote, you might say, is to see that we are in Christ Jesus. He is utterly sufficient. If we approach God in the conscious sense of His great worth, then our offerings in worship will be supremely acceptable to Him. It requires complete dependence on the Holy Spirit. We can't depend on the Holy Spirit partially and go on into the presence of God bringing the works of our hands to fill up the measure. That is really an insult to each Person of the Godhead. It has to be full dependence. We see that in the offerer leaning on the head of the bullock in Leviticus 1. He knows that the offering will be accepted for him, that his acceptance before God is entirely in Christ, and not one bit through his own merit. It's a wonderfully liberating thing to get a grasp of that in our souls: that Christ has done it all, and we are free to be to God, freed from self and the flesh which is so easily appealed to by the enemy. We have nothing to fear if we truly and practically live in Christ, as dead to the old man. What can possibly harm a dead man? Nothing. Our life is hid with the Christ in God (Colossians 3:3).
     
  6. Yes, Paul was a tent-maker. You have a job, and so do I, and I'm sure we do them to the best of our ability. But that's in the course of our everyday lives, filling out responsibility and righteousness - what we're talking about here in worship in assembly, which is a different thing. You ask who gave Paul the ability to make tents? I would think he would've learned it from other tent-makers with whom he worked. Unconverted people can learn every craft known to man - would we trace their abilities to a gift from God? The fundamentals of civilisation were developed by men away from God, Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-Cain.
     
  7. Wow, guys! That took a long time to go through. *laughs* I have a few thoughts, though:

    1. Are we talking strictly about public worship or about public and private worship?

    2. In one of the references from the New Testament, it was mentioned that one of the things they were to do involved Psalms. Do we have a historical context as to whether they would still have understood those as music or not? If I understand correctly, those were originally songs with music. (Feel free to correct if I'm wrong here.)

    3. While I would definitely commend a congregation for taking into account any known issues to their current members (the example given was to protect someone from past sin; an example I can recall from my childhood was that I had a Bible and hymn book which were larger so I could follow and properly take part in worship) I do not see how this can apply on a generalized level. If we were consciously trying to prevent every conceivable sin that every member of every congregation could have conceivable crossed paths with I would fear for our collective sanity. There's only so much that we can do without knowing what's going on.

    4. The core of worship is not what is presented, but rather how. It is the Heart of the worshiper that is of the greatest interest, and what lies within the heart is something only God can truly know.

    5. Perhaps the reason that we have this split thinking (or maybe it would be better to consider this a side effect of the result, since we know God would not want his children to suffer discord) is that God happens to like both a capella and instrumentally accompanied singing? He seems to enjoy a wide variety of creativity in everything else--why would music be any different?

    Personally? I've taken part in both types of music as worship and they both have their value. I think the more productive question that each of us could be asking is: what brings our (individual) heart closer to God? That's the goal, right? :)

    Regardless, though, this is a fascinating thread. I performed both with churches and in more secular settings at various points of my life and the ways that music can be used--what it's value is--still interests me even though that aspect of my life is not a major focus at the present.
     
    Cturtle, Klub and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  8. #368 Euphemia, Jul 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
    Craftsmanship is a spiritual gift.

     
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  9. @Grant Melville ,
    Greetings Brother,
    Hey you had mentioned in a post above.....that these things can not be spiritual things because the unbeliever can do so as well. That brother is a far reach for a plum in an apple tree. I can read my bible and it is a spiritual thing - an unbeliever can as well and this does not make my reading unspiritual nort anything else. It is NOT what is done but by whom it is done.

    Grant I am not trying to be a pain here. To me it seems you are making things way to complicated and getting into legalistic rules.

    Thread church worship music.......
    It was started by a young brother who was busy trying to prove everything false and wrong and so forth which in its self was not correct.

    There is no right or wrong beat or melody or instrament for true worship unto our Lord God.
    Now common sense tells us we dont hire metalica to leed church worship HOWEVER a true worship leader is always seeking God and therefore will NOT allow anything opposed to God.

    When you try to make this into a cut and paste format you limit God to how much He can move. SEE GOD WONT work by our schedule or clock. If a worship team spends 14 days preparing for a sunday worship fest and 2 seconds before they start God says - go this way- They need to go with the flow of God. If they do not then you will NOT see God move in it.

    This debate over slow go or upbeat melody is correct is nothing but a fools errand backed by satan himself. Sowing strife into the believers. If one does not like upbeat then get on your knee's and seek God and dont speak out against it. If one does not like slow go then walk in Love and worship God and seek His face over this.

    For one of two things will transpire
    1. You are in the wrong church and God will show you where you should be.
    2. Repent and Honor God is in order.

    Look folks the Church is not about pleasing us. When we sit from the pew side we need to Honor God and those He has placed us under. Let them do what they are called to do.
    Stop this constant bickering over what YOU FEEL is right or wrong for it does NOT MATTER one bit what you or I think or feel about it but rather WHAT GOD WANTS.

    Just go worship Him for who He is and stop all this fussing trying to prove what is right or wrong.
    God Bless
    Jim
     
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  10. #370 Grant Melville, Jul 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
    What I have in mind here is worship when we gather, worship in the assembly. Privately, what we do or don't do (provided it isn't sinful) doesn't really matter much, as I understand it. I think we get a touch as to private worship in Daniel, "he went into his house; and, his windows being open in his upper chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled on his knees three times a day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime." (Daniel 6:10). Of course, we can pray and worship at any time. Even in the course of a working day, we can take a moment to "let Jerusalem come into your mind." (Jeremiah 51:10). Conditions there would be different than they are in the assembly. In the assembly, all is to be done to edification. We worship together in unity, and we join with our brethren in a united note of praise. The Epistles really set out the conditions which should be in the assembly.

    Psalms are experiences - a psalm describes an experience with God. Many of the Old Testament psalms were written with musical accompaniment, and "To the chief musician" (Christ, in type). As you rightly point out, psalms are mentioned in the New Testament, in Ephesians 5:19, "... speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and chanting with your heart to the Lord...", and Colossians 3:16, "Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God." Every believer has their own personal psalms. Every believer has had some experience with God, some more than others. In Colossians, I think we get a wider thought than in Ephesians. In Ephesians, it is "speaking to yourselves", an inward reflection with an outward expression. In Colossians, it is "teaching and admonishing one another", edification in the assembly. Experienced brethren can bring great riches to the assembly. Their experiences can help their fellow brethren. Older brethren would normally have a great store of experience, walking with God over many years - their book of psalms is very full!
    As to the historical context, there's no evidence of musical instruments being used in Christian worship until the 7th century. Contemporary sources from the time of the early church all confirm that musical instruments were never used.

    There's certainly a danger of getting totally tied up in knots about things - letting fear and uncertainty rule our lives. In contrast to that, there's safety and certainty in staying on the ground of scripture. No scripture concerning the Church ever mentions musical instruments, so it's safe to say that they aren't necessary or even part of Christian worship. So much of the danger that's come into Christendom and into gatherings of the Lord's people - places which should be safe and supportive for all - has come about because of innovation which doesn't have a basis in scripture. We need to be on our guard against modern innovation and ancient tradition - neither of which is of God. The word of God is the only solid ground. The history of the Christian testimony is immensely instructive in that way - I would say that a good history of the Church is necessary reading for every believer. In many ways it's as sad a tale of departure and sorrow as the history of Israel - but there's an unbroken golden thread right through it. There is always the overcomer.

    Absolutely. If something isn't from the heart of the believer, if it's merely outward, then it has no value in the sight of God. Worship is from the heart, essentially, and only from the heart. We worship in spirit. We can't worship with our hands or our feet. Singing and speaking are both connected with Christian worship in the scripture, but I believe that that's inseparable from edification. God doesn't need us to speak or sing out loud to enjoy our worship because He is a heart-knowing God, but He commands us to do so so that others can benefit from it. The Holy Spirit prompts us and intercedes for us, so that the assembly can be edified, so that we can be built up together.

    When we're speaking about what God likes, what God takes pleasure in, what He delights in... there can only be one answer: Christ. All the craftsmanship, fine workmanship, manufacturing and building which the children of Israel did was really a foreshadowing of that One and the heavenly system of things He would introduce - which He has introduced. Faith has replaced sight, the earthly has been superseded by the heavenly. We have a better covenant than the Jews did. "Jesus became surety of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:22). God took pleasure in fine workmanship in connection with the tabernacle and the temple - and even lent His Spirit to it directly - because they spoke of Jesus. How patient God was during this time, because He longed, speaking carefully, to express His love fully in Christ. There came a time when the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom (Mark 15:38), such was the eagerness (again, we would say that reverently) of God to come out to man in that way! How immensely, incomparably, incomprehensibly great was the work and Person of the Lord Jesus in the sight of the Father! If we get a sense of that, the greatness of Christ, then we come to realise how He filled up every type of the Old Testament in which God took pleasure. Then we realise that because we have Him, we don't need anything at all of the imagination, the art, the craftsmanship of man. You'll probably have seen from the length of this thread that it's been discussed a lot, and I've posted a lot on it. If it was some minor point of practice, or conformance to some rule, I wouldn't have pressed the issue. But, what we're discussing is precious truth connected with the all-sufficiency of the Lord Jesus Himself. It's not my intention to enforce some legal point on the brethren. What I deeply desire is that from this discussion we all - myself included - go forward with a deeper, fuller, greater, sweeter impression of the worth of Christ, and how, if we have Him in our hearts and present our valuation of Him to God in worship, we don't need anything else at all.

    I believe that occupation with Jesus and His love brings our hearts closer to God. If, instead, we think about how we can employ our skills and our talents in the worship of God, we're occupied with ourselves. If we still think we can bring something to God as an offering which we've cultivated of ourselves, we show that we have little understanding of either the sin condition which marks man or the value of Christ. I know I've pointed to it many, many times on this thread alone, but Cain and Abel's offerings are the epitome of that, they encapsulate this truth.

    Kathy, I'm glad you've joined our discussion, these questions and remarks have been very helpful.
     
  11. I appreciate your point, but reading the Bible is not a spiritual activity in itself. The physical book is not a spiritual thing, but the work of God which goes on in our souls as we read and understand His word is spiritual. The word 'spiritual' describes what goes on in the spirit. You say it is not what is done but by whom it is done, but how can that be right? Believers can still sin, they can still do things which displease God. Just because we are believers, that doesn't mean that everything we turn our hands to is automatically pleasing to Him.

    I would suggest as well that it's wonderfully and blessed simple just to be able to rest on what scripture actually says, and not to go beyond that.

    I don't want to be seen to be dogmatic, but, truly, I don't know of anyone who's qualified to lead worship in the assembly except the Holy Spirit. He doesn't lend Himself to anything that isn't spiritual - He operates in the hearts of the saints, not in their hands or feet. If we make way for the Holy Spirit to operate amongst the brethren, there can be no limitation on the scope of what He can do. We have to be completely dependent on Him in worship, we have to recognise His place as a divine Person and allow Him His place. In my experience of assembly worship, the saints gather together to the Name of the Lord Jesus, then the Spirit directs the worship in whatever way He chooses. Brother, I believe we're both saying the same thing, but we have different ideas about what limits divine activity. You say that it can be limited by not bringing in instruments. I believe it can only be limited by introducing anything which is not of the Spirit Himself. Scripture tells us we can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). Speaking reverently and carefully... He is sensitive. He won't force His way on us. If anything of human endeavour is introduced in an attempt to supplement what He would draw out from the hearts of the saints in assembly, I believe the Holy Spirit would be grieved.

    Jim, you say, "Stop this constant bickering over what YOU FEEL is right or wrong for it does NOT MATTER one bit what you or I think or feel about it but rather WHAT GOD WANTS." I couldn't agree more. We should all seek the mind of God, and be careful that we aren't led into indulging our own tastes, our own likes and dislikes. That is why everything that appeals to man after the flesh is excluded from the assembly, as we see it in the New Testament - why there isn't a single mention of the work of human hands or human imagination in connection with Christian worship. These things are a matter of taste, and my taste is likely to be different from yours. There's no basis for unity there, only a fruitful source of division and strife.

    I simply believe we should seek the mind of God about everything, searching His word for it, being prayerful about it. There is something particular that God wants, not a great variety of opposing things. There shouldn't be great variety of that kind in Christendom, and there shouldn't be so-called 'churches' - that's the result of people indulging their feelings and wants, so that they pick and choose which 'church' feels right for them, without much thought for what God wants. There is one Church, and its local expressions in every place.
     
  12. This is a complete fabrication based on religious thinking.
     
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  13. I think the scripture is clear as to that: "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth." (John 4:24).
     
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  15. You can worship God in spirit and still play an instrument. Your understanding on this issue is hindered by literality. You are adhering to a teaching of men, not God, I'm sorry to have to say.
     
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  16. #376 Fish Catcher Jim, Jul 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
    try again - I messed up the first one. sorry folks. ;)
     
  17. Greetings Brother Grant,
    I pray the day has found you joyful and very happy.
    Now then I want to respond to a few things that you have said.

    Grant Melville, said I appreciate your point, but reading the Bible is not a spiritual activity in itself. The physical book is not a spiritual thing, but the work of God which goes on in our souls as we read and understand His word is spiritual.
    Grant the bible is The Very Written Word Of God - it does not get much more spiritual or spirit filled then that. The Integrity of Hos written Word is nothing to down play or put off as just words. God created everything through or with HIS WORDS.

    His truths found in His written word must be spiritually discerned. We can NOT understand His word with human reasoning no matter how many degree's one has. His word is Life to those who find it. SO if iot takes spiritual discerning - well brother it is a spiritual event or thing or time and so forth. ( at least it needs to be )

    The word 'spiritual' describes what goes on in the spirit. You say it is not what is done but by whom it is done, but how can that be right? Believers can still sin, they can still do things which displease God. Just because we are believers, that doesn't mean that everything we turn our hands to is automatically pleasing to Him.

    We as believers are to do everything as doing it unto the Lord. Another words strive for excellence. God placed fishing iin me. He gave me this desire and dream and ABILITY. This is a gift and or a talent. Now when I fish I bring Glory unto Him and give Him all the glory and credit and simply worship Him with my entire being. This includes every area of my life, such as finances and time and so forth.

    Now there are many un-saved fisherman that can catch fish like noones business but they bring no glory or honor unto God. They do not know Him nor do they Thank Him for whaty they have.

    Grant it seems that you paint this stuffy picture of God who is not interested in the affairs of man -------HOWEVER He is immensly interested in the affairs of man - HOWEVERA it is man who wont let Him or keeps Him out and claims God is not a part of these kind of things.

    In anything we do - it must be done unto the Glory of God. If a person see's a need in their comunity and claims it is of God and gets all busy filling this need and calls it a ministry. There is a very Good chance God was not even in it. Not all things that look good or seem better are Gods will for you in that situation.



    I would suggest as well that it's wonderfully and blessed simple just to be able to rest on what scripture actually says, and not to go beyond that.

    Now this is a problem for me - people tend to THINK they know what scripture is saying or all of what it is saying but the truth is - there is a endless amount of revelation understanding to His word. Another words - there is more to it then simple black and white and red. God has released revelations unto His people each and every generation. Some except it and move on and grow and many reject it as false and stay with their limited aray of understanding. That a personal choice and not scripture ends here.

    Grant I will end it here for there is too much different topics in these long post. I think much gets lost.
    God Bless
    Jim
     
    Kathy and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  18. I agree that you can worship God and still play an instrument. What I'm saying is that playing an instrument is not worship in itself.
     
  19. It is if the child of God is playing this instrument as to worshiping God then it is.
     
  20. Please can you provide a scriptural basis for that idea.
     

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