Cessationists, It's Time To Be Delivered From Your Bondage!

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by evangelist-77, Oct 28, 2012.

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  1. Proof that cessationism has been false doctrine for 1700(?) years

    Justin Martyr (a.d. 100-165) boasted to the Jewish Trypho "that the prophetic gifts remain with us"
    (Dialogue with Trypho, 82).

    Irenaeus (a.d. 120-200) also bears witness to the presence of the gifts of the Spirit. He writes:
     "We have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions, and prophetic utterances; others, by laying-on of hands, heal the sick and restore them to health"
    (Against Heresies, 2:32,4).
     "We hear of many members of the church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men's secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God" (Against Heresies, 5:6,1).
     "It is impossible to enumerate the charisms which throughout the world the church has received from God" (Against Heresies, 2:32,4).

    Eusebius himself concludes that the charismata were all still in operation down to the time in which Irenaeus lived (Ecclesiastical History, 5:7,6).

    Apollinarius is quoted by Eusebius as saying that "the prophetic gifts must continue in the church until the final coming, as the apostle insists" (EH, 5:16,7).

    Epiphanius, perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Montanists, did not attack them because they practiced the gifts of the Spirit. Indeed, he declared that "the charism [of prophecy] is not inoperative in the church. Quite the opposite. . . . The holy church of God welcomes the same [charisms] as the Montanists, but ours are real charisms, authenticated for the church by the Holy Spirit" (Panarion, 48).

    Augustine (354-430), early on espoused cessationism. However, in his later writings he retracted his denial of the ongoing reality of the miraculous and carefully documented no fewer than 70 instances of divine healing in his own diocese during a two-year span (see his City of God, Book XXII, chps. 8-10). See especially the articles by Richard Riss, "Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts in the Second Through Nineteenth Centuries," Basileia, 1985.

    Charles Spurgeon is a case in point. This is taken from his autobiography:
    “I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit.”
    (The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, [Curts & Jennings, 1899], Vol. II, pp. 226-227).

    All of the above was taken from: http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/gifts-in-church-history/

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I put this in a special category, as it wasn't a regular-type occurance ...
    ... it had a tremendous historical impact upon Christianity:
    Constantine's army adopted the Christian cross (312 a.d.) because of
    the vision he experienced … and the battles he won because of it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Disasterously-ignored information is to be found in books such as these:

    http://www.amazon.com/Charismatic-Gifts-Early-Church-Exploration/dp/0913573094

    http://www.amazon.com/2000-Years-Charismatic-Christianity-pentecostal/dp/0884198723/ref=pd_sim_b_1

    http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Manifestations-Spirit-History-Church/dp/0974474894/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_1

    And also a book by 2 Roman Catholic scholars …
    http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Initiation-Baptism-Holy-Spirit/dp/0814650090
     
  2. Seen people, mostly children, healed when doctors had no hope - even my own daughter.

    Also seen God's incredible power in saving people from accidents etc.

    Evangelist, maybe you could have taken a slightly less aggresive title for this thread - just my opinion.
     
  3. It seems to me that what is asked should be explained first.

    So then, what is Cessationism. In Christian theology, is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, tongues, and prophetic revelation, pertained to the apostolic era only, served a purpose that was unique to establishing the early church, and passed away after the canon of Scripture was closed. It is contrasted with Continuationism, which is the view that the miraculous gifts are normative, have not ceased, and are available for the believer today.

    I do not see anywhere that the OP made a choice concerning his opinion, so we in fact do not know what it is.

    When checking the links he posted, they are all Amazon . com trying to sell books concerning the Pentacostal faith.
    I "assume" by that he is taking the position of Continuationism.

    For the sake of conversation I am in fact a Cessationist. What we must consider is that Cessationism is not an attack on the Person or work of the Holy Spirit.

    Cessationists are convinced that, by redefining Cessationism is not an attack on the Person or work of the Holy Spirit.

    In fact, just the opposite is true. Cessationists are motivated by a desire to see the Holy Spirit glorified. They are concerned that, by redefining the gifts, the continuationist position cheapens the remarkable nature of those gifts, lessening the truly miraculous working of the Spirit in the earliest stages of the church.

    Cessationists are convinced that, by redefining healing, the charismatic position presents a bad testimony to the watching world when the sick are not healed. There is Not a single NT account of someone asking Jesus for healing who was not healed!
    So then we must ask...............why are there people who go to healing services are are not healed?
    Because the event has been "re-difined" by the Pentacostal movement to make it acceptable whether Biblical or not.
    By redefining tongues, the charismatic position promotes a type of nonsensical gibberish that runs contrary to anything we know about the biblical gift. But the Biblical account is that tongues were spoken by Jews to Jews with understanding and the central focus was always Christ Jesus. So then we must ask, why is the tongues spoken today gibberish and unable to be understrood?
    Because the event has been re-defined by the Pentacostal movement to make it acceptable whether Biblical or not.

    By redefining prophecy, the charismatic position lends credence to those who would claim to speak the very words of God and yet speak error. But the Biblical account of a prophet tells us that when or if a man spoke for God and what he said did not take place.....he was stoned for being a false prophet. So then we must ask, why do we accept the words of a man to be from God when the things he says do to take place?? When that happens he is in effect making God a liar. WHY do we aloow this to happen today?
    Because the event has been re-defined to make it acceptable wheter it is Biblical or not.

    This, then, is the primary concern of cessationists: that the honor of the Triune God and His Word be exalted—and that it not be cheapened by watered-down substitutes.

    And how do we know if something is authentic or not? By comparing it to the written testimony of Scripture. Does going to the Bible to define the gifts mean that we are bypassing the Holy Spirit? Quite the contrary. When we search the Scriptures, we are going to the testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself to discover what He has revealed about the gifts that He bestowed.

    I hope you wil pray and think of these things.
     
  4. Healing is a gift of God, we can pray (ask) but it's up to him who he heals. That's my opinion on the subject. As far as the power of the Holy Spirit today, I cannot deny it. 12 years ago, I almost drove off a cliff, literally. I was speeding on a windy mountain road, with a cliff on one side. I hit a slick spot and went into a slide straight towards the guardrail. I tapped the brakes, knowing it was too little too late, I had a sick feeling in my stomache and right before I hit the guardrail I prayed, "Please God, do not let my son grow up without a father". I didn't hit the guardrail, instead I was slammed against the back of my seat by the most powerful acceleration I've ever felt in my life, I had to physically wrestle the steering wheel to regain control of the car but I was safe. I went back a couple days later and there was 50 feet of tire marks, not from braking but from accelerating out of the slide. My foot was not on the accelerator but someone's was.
     
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  5. God has not ceased to intervene with miracles in peoples lives, as He has always done. The Cessationist just believe He no longer works in the capacity of the nine gifts of the Spirit. The most prevalent evidence used is the continued hospitalization of the ill, because one saint with one gift (healing) could reverse this outcome.
     
  6. Thanks for explaining your take on what cessationism really means.

    When I was anointed on the mission field for healing, we were blessed with
    several healings in hospitals (and we only prayed for a few).
    The most dramatic one is in my testimony.

    I have no idea why those with the gifts of healing, etc. are not very successful in American hospitals.
    Perhaps it's because of so much UNBELIEF, which has been spread by the media, atheists, etc.
     
  7. I agree with you 100%!!!

    Then the queston must be.......why dosen't a faith healer go to every hospital and heal all those who are sick????
     
  8. '77...........Does it not bother you at all that a professed faith healer will plan on being at a location for a program, but he does not go to the local hospital of the area where the event is taking place????

    God heals and God does miracles and that is not my concern whatsoever. My contention is that self proclaimed healers DO NOT have the ability to heal. God YES.......man NO.

    IF a man had that ability, shouldn't he be more concerned with the sick in the hospital than the size of the crowd ????
     
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  9. My random thoughts on that valid statement......... (not directed at you Major ;))

    This can happen. But it would never be the norm with God. 1) Christians walk in healing. If they need healing there is a reason God has not already given it to them (either they are in sin or it is part of His will testing the boundaries of their faith and trust in Him). 2) It is almost never God's will to get followers by 'showing off' His power. Sure Jesus healed the sick. But He also told a few to go and tell nobody! It is God's will that people know He is able to heal but that it not be the priority. Just like a rich man wants to use 'who he is' to get through to a potential bride, not flash his money.

    The gift we have is the Holy Spirit as opposed to a gift like Samson, of muscles:) . Perhaps some Christians would rather have the gift of healing then the gift of The Holy Spirit? I am saying this to illustrate that in order to operate in the gift of healing we first have to operate in the gift of / on the terms of the Holy Spirit, which are complete submission and humility to God's will. If we are not lead by the Spirit we are lead by our flesh. Sure our flesh can cause placebo healing, but that is all it is if we are out of God's will. Any sign of arrogance or pride is a clear indicator that we are not in the Spirit.
     
  10. Well it probably has to do with the fact that there is no such thing as a faith healer. There are 'gifts' of healing, 1 Cor 12:9,28 & 30. Kathryn Kulman and Oral Roberts are my generations examples, and may have been called faith healers, but that was a title given them by the media.

    The dispensation of healing is experienced as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 12:11; ...As the Holy Spirit determines. If anyone claims to know how the Holy Spirit determines this they would be greatly blessed of God, but the point Paul was making, is that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate decider, NOT MAN!
     
  11. I had two occasions where I witnessed healings. One was at a charismatic Catholic church and the other was at a non-denominational little neighborhood church. The first one I recieved a healing for a chronic stomach ailment and the second a friend of mine was healed of a chronic and reoccurring eye infection. At the first one the evangelist had just finished speaking and said we were going to have a healing service. Several people lined up and he prayed for them. He said out loud someone here has a stomach problem and the Lord wants to heal them. I was in absoute shock and thought "he can't mean me". He repeated himself and added that the Lord was healing them right then, but that in order to complete the healing the person must come down and recieve it publicly. I went into full panic mode. My stomach felt very warm and it seemed to be vibrating ever so slightly. I looked around and wished someone...anyone would stand up and say "I'm the one! That's meant for me!" But no one stood up. I sure wasn't going down there in front of all those people. The evangelist looked straight at me with disappointment then continued on. I was shaken by that event, but I had my partial healing and I desperately took whatever God would give me. I was 18 years old. I was 5'11" and weighed only 120lbs. I was wasting away from not eating and my stomach was on self-destruct. After the healing my stomach quietened and I slowly began increasing in weight. Now I'm way over weight and gain weight if I so much as look at a picture of food. I always assumed the healing may have been a mind game and that was just tricked into believing I was healed. But now, many years later, I know I was healed by God and not a man.
     
  12. Just to throw my pennies in here:

    Jesus did not heal everybody He dealt with - scripture clearly tells us that those who had faith issues were not healed (Jesus could not perform miracles).

    There is a faith element to healing, but this is not what I want to discuss. What I really want to discuss is that when ever this topic is raised of the nine gifts (there are more, Paul never gave an exhaustive list) only healing and tongues is disputed. Why?

    What about the gifts of faith, love, charity etc? If we do not have these gifts today then we are not Christian!

    We always dispute the "power gifts" but never the more internal growth related gifts, which are very evident in the church today. The gifts of the Holy Spirit have not ceased, we have ceased to believe in them and do things in our own strength. Anybody, regardless of denomination, if they state they dont do things in their own strength but rely on God, well indirectly they have to admit they rely on the gifts of the Spirit!

    The same Spirit which raised Christ from the dead lives in us! Why dispute the activity of the gifts, lets just get out there and practise Christianity, pray for the sick (in faith they will be healed), pray for miracles, pray for love, pray for faith etc etc etc and let the Holy Spirit do what He thinks is right and lets stop worrying about have the gifts ceased or not. Lets just be obedient Christians, preach the gospel, pray for the sick and make disciples for Christ!
     
  13. Kevin........the answer here IMO is because it is the "tongues & healing" which can be easily manipulated or faked so as to promote a sense of being more "religious" than other people.

    These as you call them "power gifts" are the ones which can be worked up in the flesh and actually gives the person doing them an avenue of emotional realease.

    Kevin.......I have been there my brother! I was raised in that kind of atmosphere. But as I grew older, I started to see things that made no sense at all to me. That caused me to undertake serious Bible study to answer those questions.

    The question was...........Who is right, the Bible or my pastor who taught these "power gifts" as being valid today.

    Allow me to post Matthew 28:16.........(esv)
    "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

    So the ELEVEN were the ones to whom Jesus commisioned to go into the world. The ELEVEN were in fact the ones included in the word "THEY". THEY are the ELEVEN.

    Now lets go to Hebrews 2:1-4 for proper context..................
    "Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

    So what is the Bible's answer to this question? It is clear that God verified the Son's message with MIRACLES, AND GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    That is the answer..............but to whom????

    Verse #4......"God also bearing THEM (This is the disciples of Matthew 28) witness both with signs and wonders and with divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will".

    The Bible says that the "SIGN GIFTS" were gifts that were given to the first generation witnesses of Christ which was the disciples/apostles. There is absolutly NO suggestion in the English or the Greek that the readers of the Bible or believers possessed these same miraculous gifts.

    Now of course we see today that many people are believing in these sign gifts and are claiming they possess them. IF one wants to do that, more power to them but simply said...........they are doing it because they want to not because God has given them that gift.

    Those sign gifts of the Holy Spirit were present in the first church to confirm the apostolic revelation of God.

    2 Corth. 12:12..........
    "Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds."

    Those gifts are not expected today because there are no apostles today. Just as it is necessary to erect a scaffolding to help in construction when building a building, so also were SIGN GIFTS given as spiritual scaffolding by God to His apostles to give credibility to His revelation from those Apostles. When the written Word of God was completed, God then removed that spiritual scaffolding.

    Remember also that these SIGN GIFTS were primarily given as signs for the Jews.

    1 Corth. 1:22............
    "For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom".

    It is also necessary to remember that the Apostles were primarily useing oral tradition when spreading the gospel and they needed signs to authenticate their message.

    2 Thess. 2:15...........
    "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle."

    Now anyone is welcome to disagree with me and I am sure some will do just that. I ask that you read and pray about the Bible verses first and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you in understanding......certainly not me.

    It is help full IMO that when considering a SIGN GIFT, one should remember that gifts such as the gifts to the Apostles, were foundational gifts needed in the 1st century and were characterized by certain Bible qualifications that can not be met today.

    Also, Paul told us that some gifts would come to an end.

    1 Corth. 13:8
    "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. "
     
  14. Hi Major,

    I have done the study and I respect where you are coming from. 1 Cor. 13:8 is highly debatable as it refers (vs. 10) to that which is perfect which is to come. Some say it is scripture others say it is the second coming of Christ. Personally I think it is the second coming of Christ. Anyway it is and always has been poor hermenuetics to base doctrine on one verse in the bible.

    For myself Major, when I was younger I was in a church which believed in the ceasation of the gifts and everything in that church was man driven. Now that I am older I have changed my view, also through study (Grudem, Berkhof, Williams all have done excellent work in terms of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit) but also through experience - the Holy Spirit has been given to us not only for councel, conviction etc but to empower us for ministry. I think the worst exegesis of this topic was done by John Macarthur, he left all his brilliant theological training at the door and became very subjective on this topic, simply (IMO) because he takes the worst part out of chaotic churches and regards it the norm for all churches which believe in the gifts.

    I do not want to debate the ceassation of the gifts, all I want to stress is that Christians must get past this idle passtime of arguing and debating this subject because for centuries this has been debated and it has never been solved. I just want to encourage all Christians, lean on the Holy Spirit. Go into ministry in faith, that it is He who will grow and expand the church, we are mere vessels through which He works. Lets just go humbly before Him and just do as He has instructed us to do. We must not make a show and a dance about it, we must not become arrogant and proud (Corinthian church), we must go in complete humility and just let the Holy Spirit work through us.

    Major, I can very comfortably say that you have the gift of teaching, preaching, discernment and probably others which I have not yet seen in you. This is what the Holy Spirit has given you. He has given others gifts which you may not posess but that is what makes us incredibly unique yet function together as one - only God can do that!
     
  15. Yes, indeed you are, or were. I've seen this countless times ...
    when cessationists are shown evidence proving they have been deceived,
    they switch and pretend they meant something else.
    Why don't they just come out and admit they've been deceived ... and been in bondage to Satan's lies?

    All of this nonsense about saying God ceased 1700 years ago from performing signs and wonders
    is far more serious than most people realize ... it has tied His hands ... that's what UNBELIEF does!

    IMO, it's disgraceful when Christians refuse to admit they are wrong, etc.
    This is tantamount to lying ... and if anyone needs a thread on the disasterous sin of lying,
    this can easily be arranged because I already have the verses ready to go.
    (Habitual) lying is in the list of things which will send anyone and everyone to Hell.
     
  16. Sorry, but this is what the thread is all about.

    It's been solved now ... just look at what the Lord has done ... He has raised up believers
    to research church history for PROOF that cessationism is a lie from the very pits of Hell.

    Have I already given the reasons why church leaders for 1700 years have been cessationists?
    They used 1 Cor 13:10 as a convenient excuse ... and this has been an abomination!
    Those who have done this knowingly will pay a heavy price ... guaranteed.
     
  17. In the second healing I witnessed, a friend of mine went to go see the same evangelist at a neighborhood church. I was told he was going to be there and I wanted my friend to see this guy. We had arrived late and the service was over, but we saw the evangelist talking outside with some lady. We patiently waited and then he turned toward us and asked if he could help us. I asked him if he could tell my friend about God. He said"sure". He then excused himself from the lady he was talking to. He asked us to step inside. We sat in a row of folding metal chairs lined up against the wall. He then asked John, my friend, how much he knew about Jesus. John replied that he knew virtually nothing. Joe, the evangelist, then asked John what was wrong with his eye. At this John lept up to his feet and blurted"How do you know about my eye?" I didn't even know John had any eye problem. Joe calmly told John that the Lord showed him the problem. He told John to come sit back down and that the Lord wanted to heal his eye. John was confused and hesitant. Joe asked if he could lay hands on his eye and John stammered out a few words. Joe asked again and John relented. Joe placed his fingers around john's eye and prayed(fingertips touching around the eye socket).
    After that Joe and his wife prayed for us both. As we left, I asked John what was wrong with his eye. He said he had a reoccuring eye infection and that the doctors didn't know why. He would have it treated only to have it reappear a few months later. He had this condition all through his childhood. All he wanted to know was how Joe knew about his eye since he had told no one. He asked me if I told Joe and I laughed and said "There's no way I could've told him" and that I never knew about his eye. I asked him what happened when Joe layed hands and prayed. John told me that he felt warmth and a slight vibration all through his eye.
    A few years later, John and I met up again and he said he never had a problem with that eye ever again. But, he also said he never gave his heart to Christ. Go figure.
     
  18. Danny Boy, thanks for the testimony ... but ...

    There have been literally millions of these over just the past 100 years.
    The point is ... what's the point?
    Most brainwashed and deceived Christians who are in bondage to Satan re: this topic
    simply won't or can't believe the truth about it.

    Yes, there is a Satan who hates all of us with an unbelieveable passion.
    He is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of this world.
    And there have been many deceiving and lying Christians over the years.
    Welcome to the real world.

    Believing in a Lord who is willing and anxious to answer your prayers for the miraculous
    will come in very handy in the times to come!
    IMO, this outweighs the negative aspect of being deceived by Satan during the Great Tribulation.
    So, my advice is to throw away your UNBELIEF ... and get your BELIEF in gear!
     
  19. All we can do is continue to witness to others what we know we saw and experienced. If people want to try and confine God with theological strait-jackets to alleviate their fears of being deceived by fake healers then so be it. God will still save whom He will and will still heal whom He will.
    The reason John and I were late to the service so many years ago was because his mother had grown up as a "holy roller" and had seen so many fake healings she didn't want her son caught up in that. She abandoned christianity all together because of the deception she witnessed.
    Many people are so afraid of being deceived that they would rather throw the baby out with the bath water than to risk being fooled. While I've seen my fair share of fakes, I know that the two experiences of healing I did witness were real. No person can ever take that away no matter all the bible thumping in the world. God plays by His rules not theirs.
    As far as the Gifts go....I believe as the Body enters into these final days and comes under persecution, you will see an outpouring like the world hasn't seen since the early first days after Christ's sacrifice. You hear rumors and tales of great spiritual things in other parts of the world where the church is faced with persecution and I believe we will see great spiritual things of God manifested before our very eyes as the persecution spreads.
    No theological boxes will keep Him from His people.
     
  20. And it will not be decided here and now.


     
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