Beware The Snare Of Date-setting!

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by JeremiahD84, Mar 24, 2012.

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  1. The problem with date setting is not that we should not do it. It is that we should have a full understanding before we try setting a date. Was is Nehemiah that new from the scriptures that it was time to rebuild. Jesus new his time was on the Sabbath to be crucified. He said when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing where is should not be then flee to the mountains. This does not allow to set a date but it does tell us what circumstances to watch for. However, if we check Daniel to see what he was talking about we find a time line can be seen. The problem is everyone that tries to set a date misses something in their calculations because they don't understand the whole story.

    Peter said in the that the scoffers would come when you you try to witness with prophecy.

    Jesus said it is not for you to know the times or seasons for this is something your Father has kept in his power BUT you will receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you and you will be my witnesses throughout the earth. We should always pay attention when it says but because that word nullifies the prior statement.
    Like in Thessalonians, we are not of the darkness that that day should come upon us by surprise. We are of the light. And where does that light come from? 2nd Peter 1:19 tells us to study prophecy as light that shines in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star arises in our hearts. In other words we are children of light if we study prophecy until we understand it. To many start but never finish or start but get full of pride at some revelation that is sometimes not true or is only a peace of the bigger puzzle.

    Daniel 9:27 gave us a definite sign to watch for to begin the last days count down. I don't know of any scripture to tell us what date the 7 year covenant would be signed, but once it is signed we have a time table.

    A 7 year covenant was signed on January 1st 2007. I know of no other 7 year covenant between a prince of Rome and many nations including Israel. Daniel 9:27 said it would be confirmed. Well the word 'confirmed' tells us that this was already planned but this prince made it absolute when he signed the dotted line. The covenant I speak of is the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument (ENPI) The high representative of the European Union is the prince who signed it. They made it 7 years because they have a 7 year budget. Now we have a time line. It began on January 1st 2007. But do we have all of the understanding?

    You see every teacher I have heard says that in the middle of the 7 years the covenant will be broken. That would have been in June of 2010. It didn't happen so many have fallen away from studying prophecy while others say this was not the covenant, even though it fits like a glove with scripture. What is missing?

    Daniel 8:14 tells us the key but it has been miss-taught by most to represent something other than what it says. First look at the King James version of Daniel 9:27. It says in the midst of the 7 years. Most other bibles say in the middle of the 7 years. The Hebrew can mean either midst or middle. Let's say it means midst for the sake of argument and see if scripture backs it up.

    Daniel 8:14 is speaking of the little horn and the last days and the abomination being set up. So is Daniel 9:27. The word midst places the braking of the covenant within the 7 years somewhere, but not necessarily the middle. Daniel 8:14 says 2300 days after the covenant is signed. That would be April 18th of 2013 if the EPNI is the covenant.

    Now look at the Middle East. It is almost in perfect order with this understanding. The Muslim nations are all getting rid of their dictator leaders. They will be able to form 10 nations in under one leader very soon.

    If the EPNI is the covenant then we are on the thresh-hold of Jesus return.
  2. The EPNI is based upon mans interpretation of scripture and should not be seen as scripture itself - this is the inherent danger of theories. It is good to study prophecy but to try and fit modern day happenings into prophecy is dangerous and borders on cult like adherance. There are many sites and organisations who study the EPNI, some have now disregarded it as a good theory but wrong. The EPNI is largely based upon UN treaties and happenings yet they fail to see that many events prophesied by the OT prophets have yet to occur. The EPNI may be a foreshadowing of what is yet to happen, but I personally do not think it is time yet, although I could be horribly wrong because Jesus said no man knows the hour. If the EPNI was correct then we could work out more or less the exact time of Christs second coming.

    The will always be theories and some have substance, like the EPNI, but we need to be careful. Many cults have started from date setting.
    Major likes this.
  3. Obviousely the 7 year peace treaty you speak of in 2007 IS NOT THE 7 year peace treat Daniel spoke of because the Rapture has not taken place.

    Also, the 10 nations you speak of as Muslim is NOT the case. Those 10 nations will be the revised ROMAN Empire and not Muslim . The Muslim nations are simply replacing their dictator with anothe dictator. Muslim Sheria Law will aloow for nothing else.

    Date setting, time setting can be and is very dangerous to ones spiritual life because when the even we think is going to take place does not, it effects or Christian faith.
  4. Very True..very true.
  5. Kevin; You say that "yet they fail to see that many events prophesied by the OT prophets have yet to occur"

    I would like to know what prophecies you speak of. I know of none that need to come before the covenant.

    You said "If the EPNI was correct then we could work out more or less the exact time of Christs second coming."

    I fail to see the significance of that statement. If the EPNI were not the covenant then when the covenant is signed how would you recognize it seeing as you think it involves date setting. What is the point of Jesus telling us this based on that theology?
  6. Major; You said; "Obviously the 7 year peace treaty you speak of in 2007 IS NOT THE 7 year peace treat Daniel spoke of because the Rapture has not taken place."

    I know of no scripture that states there will ever be a 7 year peace treaty. There is to be a covenant. That is all it says. And what does this have to do with the rapture. There is no scripture to state the rapture will come before the covenant is made.

    You said; "Date setting, time setting can be and is very dangerous to ones spiritual life because when the even we think is going to take place does not, it effects or Christian faith"

    I agree that if you set dates without a knowledge or if you set dates without the understanding that you could be wrong is very dangerous. However, I do not say this is the date. I say it could be the date. I base this possibility on the fact of scripture and events not on my own ideas. What I said is true. A covenant of 3 years was signed. Daniel 8:14 does say there will be 2300 days to the abomination. Jesus did say when we see the abomination that Daniel spoke of that there would be great tribulation.

    Have I lied in any of what I have said? If not then I may be true and many others may be in error. It would not be the first time the majority were wrong.
  7. Whoa my friend!! I never siad you lied or even insinuated it.

    Daniel 9:27...............
    "And HE (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE week".

    WEEK here in the Hebreww is a set of 7 YEARS. That is confirmed in Daniel 9:2 which states exprecially....
    "In the first year of his reighn I Daniel understood by books the number of the YEARS".

    So when Daniel speaks of a WEEK he is referring to 7 YEARS. If you want to call this agreement in 9:27 a "covennant" then that is what it is. My apologies if I stated it incorrectly. It is a "Covenant" (Agreement) made for 7 Years.

    As one who understands the Scriptures to teach that the believers in Christ WILL NOT GO THROUGH the Tribulation Period which is for a 7 YEAR time frame, I understand that the Rapture will remove the saints AT or very close to the Covenant agreement.

    2nd Thess. 2:1-3
    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
  8. Hi "LambOfChrist", the prophecies I am waiting for are the prophecies in the book or Ezekiel, notably the major war when all of Israel's enemies surround her led by Russia. This todate has never occured and I believe needs to happen before the tribulation period. The current events in the Middle East seem to be leading up to the formation of this unholy allegence.

    The end result of this war is the outpouring of God's Spirit over Israel. Ez. 39:29. I believe this war to be seperate from the events described in Revelation simply because John never referred to them in his letter.

    Daniel 8:14 is explained in Daniel 8:15-27 - The small horn, an offspring of the nation of Greece, will cause much destrction and devestation and will be destroyed by God. Most theologians believe this to be Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the temple and later the temple was reconsecrated by Judas Maccabeus in 165 BC. In other words this has already happened in history.

    Unlike Major, I am one who believes that the rapture will only occur when Jesus returns (sorry Major, I think we have debated this in past but it odes not effect our salvation so it is not worth debating further) so if the EPNI is correct we will see the return of Jesus sometime next year?

    Havnt most of the original proponants of the EPNI theory disregarded it because the treaty was not broken in 2010?
  9. Major;
    Please tell me why you believe there will be a seven year tribulation. I have searched scripture and can not find it. This doctrine of a 7 year tribulation distorts the understanding of many scriptures. It is false, I am sure of that. Because of this doctrine men have created the doctrine of the pre-tribulation, hence pre 7 year rapture. This rapture goes against many other scriptures and causes confusion.

    If, however, we accept the word as true then there is only less than one year of great tribulation. This takes place exactly when Jesus said it will. Right after the Jews are removed from Jerusalem in the midst of the 7 years. It could be 1 month to 10 months. I personally don't see it lasting very long.

    However, that is not the issue at hand. The issue is the 7 year covenant period. There is absolutely no scripture that ties the 7 years to tribulation unless you take them out of context and ignore other scriptures that prove tit wrong. So it is easy to teach that the saints will go thru the first part of the 7 years. Why? Simply because there is no scripture that says they won't.

    You apparently believe that the man of lawlessness is the one who makes the covenant. Again, this causes confusion in understanding scripture. The one who makes the covenant is not the same one who sits in the temple. To believe he is only confuses scripture more.
  10. Kevin;
    There is a 7 year covenant. Then in the midst of the covenant it is broken. Then the armies camp about Jerusalem. I know this is the order of events because Jesus said so in Luke 21:20. So why does Russia, if it is Russia, have to attack Israel at the beginning of the 7 years. If the 7 years began on Jan 1st, 2007, as I am sure they did, then it is normal that now there would be so much talk and it would look like the war was coming against the Jews., because the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 are almost over.

    However, I personally believe it will be the UN or the EU that gives the order to move the Jews out for their own protection. Look in Joel 3 where it says they are led captive into Greece and other nations. With Iran blowing the horn and the Muslim Brotherhood gaining numbers and influence in the Middle East this would be easy to predict even for an atheist.

    Why do you say the Little Horn is an offspring of Greece? Scripture says he comes out of one of the areas where the 4 generals of Alexander the Great reigned. It doesn't say which one. We know this was not Epiphanes because Jesus said to watch for it in the future and Epiphanes had already died and gone to hell. The area that the 4 generals ruled is all Muslim today. From Iran to Etheopia to Libya and back up the coast to Turkey, where Alexander reined from, these are all Muslim. It is no wonder that all of the dictators and the walls are coming down in the Middle East. I once thought that the 10 horned beast was the EU as well but not any more. Daniel 7 and 8 prove it is Islam. There are just over 10 nations in the area Alexander conquered.

    Who will be the Little Horn remains to be seen. I think Turkey's head or the king of Jordan. Time will tell, but I see no reason for it to be Greece in scripture.

    I am sorry, I think you missed something here. Just as there is no 7 year tribulation, so there is no abomination set up in the middle of the 7 years. The King James says in the Midst of the seven, not in the middle. This rings true to interpretation because Daniel 7:14 tells us there will be 2300 days following the making of the covenant before the abomination is set up by the Little Horn. We know that there are 3 1/2 years following the signing of the covenant. This is revealed in Daniel 7, Rev 12, and Rev 13. Therefore Jesus won't return at the end of the seven years, but 2300 days plus 3 1/2 years after the covenant is signed. Even then there are other scriptures to consider. However, at minimum this equals sometime in the fall of 2016.

    As for the rapture, I am afraid I agree with you. The lord will gather the saints exactly when he said he would. At the last trumpet which is the great trumpet of Mathew 24:31, the last trumpet of First Corinthians 15:51,52 and the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 (which is the last trumpet in the bible).

    However, that being said, who is the child of Revelation 12. Is this not a rapture of those who are obedient to Christ at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years? Their mother overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and their brethren were persecuted for having the testimony of Jesus. The Child HAS to be a part of the church and God knows, if the rapture came today not all Christians would make it. So I see 2 raptures. One in the midst of the 7 and one after the last 3 1/2 years.
    I hope you will take another serious look at scripture. I followed your line of thinking for a while, too. Until the Lord proved me wrong in his word. I thank God I was still teachable. And I remain so, glory to God. I am willing to drop my understanding in a twinkling of an eye if there is some good reason. My faith is not in what I know, but it is in who I know, and he has every right to prove me wrong any time he wishes.

    To many Christians put their faith in church doctrine or personal revelation and fear to lose their salvation if they question those who seem to be in the know. I guaranty the Lord will make fools of many proud theologians before he appears. I only hope they are able to keep their focus on him.
  11. If the rapture date could be calculated, Jesus would be 1000 steps ahead of us. If Jesus was first returning post or mid trib, He would not have said what He did in Matthew 24:36.
  12. Nothing to "be sorry" for my dear friend! One of the things that tells us that we are born again is that we can in fact talk about the Rapture or Second Coming and even though we may not agree.......we can do it with love and dignity.

    I agree with you on Ezekiel's prophecies especially chapter 38 & 39.

    I see that you have done your homework in Daniel You are correct about Daniel 8:14 as referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. He chose the name of "THEOS EPIPHANES" meaning........GOD MANIFESTED.

    There has always been a lot conversation and disagreement on the interpretation of Dan. 8:14 and these 2300 days. 7th Day Advantistism grew out of the "great second advent awakening" in which this verse was given the day-year interpretation and the date for Christ's Second Coming was set for the year 1843.

    William Miller and his followers, among whom was Ellen G. White understood the "SANCTUARY" to be the eart which would be cleansed at Christ's Second Coming. Miller was indeed sincere but a badly mistaken Baptist preacher. The day-year interpretation was a fragile and insecure foundation for any theory of prophecy and history has show that is was in fact false.

    However, IF the 2300 days are taken as being literal 24 hour days, the peroid then becomes almost 7 years which approximates the time of Antiochus who began to perpetrate his atrocities at the time you stated of around 165 B.C.

    The Jewish priest, Judas Maccabeus drove out the Syrian army at which time the temple was cleansed and re-dedicated after its pollution. This cleansing is celebrated in the "Feasts of Lights". In John 10:22 we see.............
    "And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication (Feast of Lights) and it was winter".
  13. May the Lord bless you my friend and allow us to communicate over the Word of God in love and peace.

    To properly explain your concerns for not understanding the seven year tribulation period would require a lot more space than is available here on this site. From the site."" we have an understaning...............

    An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.

    So to confirm that Daniel is referring to YEARS, we go to Daniel 9:2.........................
    "In the first YEAR of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of YEARS whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet that he would accomplish SEVENTY YEARS in the desolations of Jerusalem."
    We can clearly see that the CONTEXT of Daniels use of the words WEEKS is a referrance to YEARS.

    Hebrew describes this as "SHABUA" and is a unit of measure". When it stand alone it could mean anything but as we see it used here it is the context of YEARS. A set of SEVEN YEARS.

    Daniel had been reading the book of Jeremiah about YEARS. Jeremiah had been preaching and writing that the captivity of his people in Babylon would be for SENENTY YEARS. The 70 years of captivity were the specific penalty for the nation of Israel for violating 70 Sabbatic years. That my friend would be SEVENTY SEVENS or a total of 490 years. In those 490 years, Israel had violated exactly SEVENTY SABBATIC YEARS.

    2nd Chron. 36:21.............
    "To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths, for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil three score and ten years".

    1 week = 7 years.
    70 weeks = 490 years
    70 weeks divided into 3 periods:
    7 weeks--------62 weeks------1 week.

    So we see that all of this revolves around YEARS. With that in mind please read Daniel 9:26 which confirms all of this...........

    "And he shall confirm the covenant (Agreement) with many for ONE WEEK (7 YEARS) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".

    This "he" here is the beast of Revelation 13 who is the antichrist. After the church is removed from the earth, this "he" will make a covenant with Israel. Israel will believe him and accept him as her Messiah but in the middle of this agreement (3 1/2 YEAR) he will break his covenant and declare himself to be God. He will place a statue of himself in the temple and that is the abomination of desolation.

    What Isreal thought to be the Kingdom will turn out to be the Great Tribulation Period (Matt. 24:15-26).

    Now then............WHEN will it take place????? I HAVE NO IDEA WHATSOEVER!!!!

    But from the way the nations of the middle east are lining up, the world running out of natural resources, it does not look like it will be much longer.
  14. With all love and respect to you my friend, I must encourage you to re-consider your interpretation of Rev. 12 as being the "church".

    Rev. 12:1-2
    Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

    The very basis of our understanding of prophecy hinges on who this woman is. It is one of the keys to the Revelation AND if we get it wrong, it will mess up the rest of the Revelation all together.

    Many believe this WOMAN to be the Virgin Mary. Some say she is the CHURCH of all the ages. There have been several women founders of cults who could not resist the temptation of seeing themselves pictured as this woman.

    Joanna Southcott said that she was in fact this woman and in October 1814 she would have the child. She never did but she did have over 200,000 followers.


    The woman is a sign in heaven just as the Scriptures say although her career is here on the earth. The Scriptures even give identifying marks for us to understand who she is IF WE WANT TO KNOW.

    Genesis 37:9-10...........
    Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me. So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”

    Jacob interpreted the SUN, MOON and STARS to mean "himself, Rachel and Joseph's brothers". And they did bow down before Joseph before things were over with.


    Isaiah 9:6 says........
    "For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

    WHO is referred to here in this verse that says "UNTO US". The Church?????? NO, it is obvious that he is speaking of the nation of Israel my friends. Isaiah is speaking to the nation of Israel.

    Hebrews 7:14.........
    "For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.

    Micah 5:2-3..........
    But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
    Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, Therefore He shall give them up, until the time that she who is in labor has given birth".
  15. If the Father did not intend for Jesus to know but for us to seek it out then the above verse makes sense. In the book of Acts he said, "But ye shall receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you" Why even have all of the prophecies concerning events surrounding the rapture if we can't have a clue when it will be?

    We know from scripture it is at the last trumpet. If we can tell from scripture when the last trumpet will sound, then we can know the time of his return. This is not that hard to see. The 2 witnesses are raptured when the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days is at the same time. Just what is so blessed about that day for those who wait?
  16. Major;
    The 2300 days refer to the time of the end according to verse 17. The time of the end has not yet come until now.
  17. You say this "he" here is the beast. You are stating a fact that has no proof to be fact. The "he" here is the prince of the people who destroyed the temple in 70 AD. That people were the Roman Soldiers at the order of Caesar. So this "he" must be related to Rome in some way. However, the beast of Rev 13 is the beast of Daniel 7 with it's 10 horns. This beast comes out of Islam, not Rome. Daniel proves this by saying he comes from one of the 4 notable ones in Daniel 8:8 when speaking of the little horn of the last days. Again, we know it is the last days from verse 17 at the "time of the end". So these are 2 distinctly different men of the last days and "he" is not the beasts Little Horn.

    You say you have no idea when this will be. This is only because you refuse to see the possibility that the EPNI is the covenant based on religious teachings on prophecy. You must cast down the imaginations and bring into captivity the word if you are to ever see clearly.
  18. HMM. Don't know why that posted 3 times. I only hit post reply once. Sorry bout that.
  19. Major;
    I just read your post on the woman and found no revelation there at all. You relate a woman with the dream of Joseph. This does not prove the woman is Israel unless you choose to believe it. The dragon with it's 10 horns and 7 heads does not appear til the end of time. The church today is walking in the light of prophetic scripture coming true at this time. The sun is the natural giver of light and Peter said to study prophecy as light. Israel has no light at this time. They are in complete darkness. The woman has the moon under her feet where she walks. The majority of the church today is full of sins and pride and walking in darkness even tho they know the time is here. There are 12 apostles that are the kings of the 12 tribes of Israel. These could just as easily be the 12 stars as the sons of Jacob are. And there were only 11 stars in Jacobs dream, not 12. Israel did not over come by the blood of the lamb and the rest of the children of Israel do not hold the testimony of Jesus, the church does.

    Edited per Community Rule 3.2B
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