Did you read my second post (underneath the one you quoted) and would you say we are on the same page?
You posted the second while I was writing the first.
Did you read my second post (underneath the one you quoted) and would you say we are on the same page?
Like I pointed out above, doing "by nature" what is in the law, as opposed to the inherent imperfections in physical efforts for obedience to the written letter of the law, given our fallen state, you're right. Even when we "do by nature" what rises up from us for the law , we will still sin at times. Paul defined sin as "missing the mark." How far off the mark do you suppose it is to go back to attempts at obeying the letter of the law at the exclusion of what should be us doing "by nature" what should be written in our hearts? When we realize how vastly superior the law written in our hearts are (in relation to our ability to obey it) to the inferior written letter, there would be no need to go back to the letter.
MM
I do believe we still use the guidance of the letter though - to know what is and is not pleasing to God.
We need, as Christians, the check outside of our selves - that thing which is inerrant to make certain our flesh isn't leading us astray.
Says who?
I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just like to know where the word of God says that we need to study the letter to understand what should already be a part of our nature from the rebirth.
Now, I'm not saying that it's wrong to study the law. No problem. Study is always good where the word of God is concerned.
However, what the HR people are advocating isn't just the study of the letter of the law, but actual physical obedience to all the letter of the law, which only makes them into hypocrites.
How?
They are forced to divide up the law; to carve it into the pieces they can feasibly try to obey, and separate out the parts they cannot, or are not willing to attempt fulfilling. The letter of the law is a unified whole, and nowhere does it make allowances for being divided up into bite-sized morsels that are palatable to the fallen, fleshly taste and conveniences of fallen humanity.
If anyone can show to me otherwise, then I'm wanting to see it. That's a genuine request that I've been verbalizing for a long time now, and to date has gone ignored...or more precisely, showing that they have no proof from the silence of scripture for what they are doing.
MM
Ephesians 6:11-18 - a good read.
What did Jesus use to fight against the temptations thrown at him during the 40 days of testing?
A.) Scripture - a true understanding/application versus twisted.
If we don't have Scripture we have not the full armor of God, to withstand our hour of trial - which are many.
I fully agree with that. Amen.
Now, I will also point out the glaring difference between knowing the scriptures for application of truths, such as man not eating bread alone, and living it as a part of our nature. The letter of the law cannot become a part of our nature apart from it being written within us by the Lord after the rebirth. The written letter can only be lived out by fallen humanity in an attempt at mechanical and intellectual obedience. How far does that ever get us in relation to salvation? Well, most will spend eternity in fire trying to pay the price for that inherent failure.
Conversely, living by what the Law Giver writes into our hearts that we are then able to live "by nature" has a far more profound ability to empower us for obedience at a level far superior to merely letters written on paper.
That's a far cry from going back to the letter of the law and attempting to live it in obedience at a level we humans are simply incapable of performing in the sight of God and men. We're all very good at spotting the imperfections in each other, but God is even better at it.
What I continue to point to is what the Law Giver writes into our inward parts. Living and walking by the Spirit involves our reliance upon the indwelling Spirit and what that same Spirit writes into us inwardly as opposed to what we may read with our eyes.
May I make a statement of an absolute?
No man on this earth can possibly achieve the level of obedience to the written letter of the law as he can at the level of what each man can live from what is a part of his born-again nature defined by what is written within his heart by the Law Giver Himself. It's a comparison between the superior to the inferior, even though the written law is righteous. We simply cannot live it.
MM
I'm reading the posts in this thread, and have read all yours - I'm sure this is just me right now - but I can't figure out what your stance is on this issue?
My stance is fairly straightforward; when Jesus was asked what were the greatest commandments in saying; Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and the second like it love your neighbor as yourself (paraphrased that from memory Matthew 22:38-40) He was basically saying all 10 were the greatest commands...
Why do I say this? Because the first grouping of the 10 commands were God facing, and the last grouping are all man-facing, and in pure love you fulfill them all perfectly.
Of course, none of us are so perfect even saved, which is why we need a Savior to begin with, but as saved Children of God we strive to fulfill all in love - both of God and one another.
If you love your wife your not coming home from work of an evening and beat on her. No. Your going to do things that make her happy.
It's the same with God, the same things are abominations in His eyes now as they were 3,000 years ago. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. As His children we then strive to do what is pleasing to God, which is both an attitude that is God facing first, and man facing second.
We aren't saved by it, only God can justify us, however if we are saved we will do these things in love and obedience, because when we are saved they are written upon our very flesh (Jeremiah 31:31-34 if memory serves me correctly.) Written on our minds and hearts, the covenant which now is...
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
The context of this verse addresses giving good things to one's own child when asked, rather than a stone or a serpent. What's interesting is that the Lord did not say that ALL the law and prophets hang on this. However:
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Violation of ANY of the righteous, written laws is a violation of one or both of the two commandments upon which ALL the law hangs.
I do believe we still use the guidance of the letter though - to know what is and is not pleasing to God.
We need, as Christians, the check outside of our selves - that thing which is inerrant to make certain our flesh isn't leading us astray.
I agree in many ways, but I am stuck by a quote that I believe well said:
“Those that look to be happy must first look to be holy.”
There is a balance in all things. We are temples of the living God after all...
Yes, without the sting of the law represented by thorns how would a calloused heart hear and waken our souls ? No sting no law..No hearing of faith.
it is care to explain this?happiness is holiness at the full. Happiness is nothing but the quintessence of holiness.”
agreed but man makes it hardSalvation is simple—we acknowledge our guilt of sin and believe on Christ for forgiveness.
Natural, unsaved, Man receives not the things of the Lord, as they are spiritually discerned!agreed but man makes it hard
agreed but man makes it hard
it is care to explain this?
well our Holiness / sanctification will NOT be complete till we make it to heaven. our happiness is in the Lord. i certainly am not happy with the way the world is goingI can try.
When our holiness is perfect, our happiness shall be perfect; and if this were attainable on earth, there would be but little reason for men to long to be in heaven.”
Or we can cite Matthew Henry .......
“Those only are happy, truly happy, that are holy, truly holy,” as he wrote on about Psalms 1:10-3 going so far as to write “goodness and holiness are not only the way to happiness but happiness itself.”
What does that mean???? Who knows. Now lets try plain old country boy english........
If you try to be a holy person, leaving out happiness in God, you can’t do it. There is no such thing as holiness minus happiness in God. Happiness in God is the essence of holiness and VISA VERSA!
These Puritans knew it well. The soul’s true happiness is no incidental byproduct of holiness. True happiness is true holiness.
my self i dont do religionreligious people
I have one? Could you spare another ? A million to one LOLAgreed! YOU got one right! The bottom line is SIN!
A person must believe that there is a penalty for sin—which is death and Hell—and that we as sinners are deserving of such just punishment from God (Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8). Why does a man need a Savior if there is nothing to be saved from?
The issue of sin MUST be dealt with! It is not enough to merely turn-over-a-new-leaf, nor to make a commitment to Christ. We are GUILTY of violating God's Law (Romans 3:19). Sin must be paid for! You can either accept God's gift of pardon through the blood sacrifice of Christ Jesus, or you can spend eternity being punished in the Lake of Fire for your own sins.
The choice is completely ours to make. When we come to Christ, Jesus is then our defense Attorney, i.e., advocate, with the Father (1st John 2:1).
He has taken care of our SIN issue for us, washing them away by His own literal blood (Hebrews 9:12,22-24). Jesus did this for us because I obeyed the Gospel, by believing on Jesus as the Christ to forgive my sins (2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9; John 20:31).
The Law of God shows us our vile wicked condition and our desperate need for the Savior. This is why the Ten Commandments were given to mankind (i.e., that our sin might become exceedingly sinful).
Romans 7:13, “...that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.”
We are all guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments, whether by act or thought. Jesus equated lust with adultery and hatred with murder in the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew 5:21-22,28).
Salvation then boils down to these two simple facts:
1. We are SINNERS, and
2. Jesus is the SAVIOR!
You have to include BOTH for salvation. The importance of using the Law to reach the lost cannot be ignored. It is critically important that we present the Law to those we witness to, show them their sinfulness from the Word of God. We should NEVER tell someone that they need Jesus, without telling them WHY they need Jesus―because they are hellbound sinners under the condemnation of God's Law.
John 3:19 states,............
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”
Salvation is simple—we acknowledge our guilt of sin and believe on Christ for forgiveness.