Why do I feel like I'm dialogging with Tubby Tubby here? The two questions I asked (some rocket science here) are contained it my post where and when I asked them.I like that guys post...
And what is your question? The scriptures seem very evident to me and don't see where or how they could be confused? Unless someone didn't like what they was clearly saying and was "trying" to confuse them?
Annihilationism
- Thread starter Huntingteckel
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This verses by Paul must have something in relation to Revelation 20's Death and Hades.
1 Corinthians 15:50-58
New King James Version (NKJV)
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[b]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[c]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:50-58
New King James Version (NKJV)
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[b]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[c]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
I can only encourage anybody reading this to check in their Bible and see that Rev 20 verse 15 does not follow with "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" but "this is the second death".
Look I don't chase around folks to answer to them...if you have a question? Ask it in a strait forward way...if I know the answer I will give it. If the scripture is clear and evident? Then what question needs to be answered?
Look I don't chase around folks to answer to them...if you have a question? Ask it in a strait forward way...if I know the answer I will give it. If the scripture is clear and evident? Then what question needs to be answered?
He wants an explanation of Revelation 20:10 and 15. You said earlier you are an ordained teacher. Well, as a secular teacher (an English teacher) I know that is not how you teach (by being condescending, and telling others "it's obvious"). Consider that what seems obvious to you might not be to someone else...
Well this is not a secular discussion..and there is not question to the intention of these passages, that I can see? If I see no question, how can I answer? I don't mean to hurt your feelings..but you guys are way off in left field on this issue!
You can answer through simple exegesis. If you were asked to do a sermon on this you wouldn't just read the passage, say it's obvious, then wish everybody a nice day...
Yes the best sermon is to allow God to speak in clear words His own intentions, and the preachers and teachers job is to clarify when "needed" but for the most part to uphold God in His Righteousness and judgment! Not to try and replace His thoughts and intentions with our own!
I don't really have an opinion on this subject as I find that it isn't a vital thing. The lack of clarity given to the subject itself lends me to believe that it isn't something that we need to be overly concerned about as Christians given that it is not something that we will ever personally experience. Hell, eternal separation, the lake of fire, etc... are horrible consequences to a life outside of Christ and must be avoided. We are told that they are horrible. We are told how to avoid them. For me, that is enough.
That being said, Mitspa, you have been asked for clarification over and over again on why you feel those verses are so integral and for some reason you are refusing to answer. Your answer is equivalent to, "Because I said so". It is appropriate to expand upon your answer, otherwise there is no discussion and there is no teaching. Refusal to expand beyond quoting a verse or two is the exact opposite of teaching or discussion. I"m not entirely sure why you are being obstinate here, but it does seem to be working against your main point.
That being said, Mitspa, you have been asked for clarification over and over again on why you feel those verses are so integral and for some reason you are refusing to answer. Your answer is equivalent to, "Because I said so". It is appropriate to expand upon your answer, otherwise there is no discussion and there is no teaching. Refusal to expand beyond quoting a verse or two is the exact opposite of teaching or discussion. I"m not entirely sure why you are being obstinate here, but it does seem to be working against your main point.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
I agree 100%. It isn't a Salvation issue and more of just an interesting topic to discuss. I think, although it isn't a Salvation issue, it is important to discuss. Most of the churches I've gone to (Baptist churches) like to talk about how you're going to suffer forever if you are a unbeliever at least once a sermon. I think that if ECT is false, then we are doing great harm to people that are unbelievers by teaching them it's true. Two out of the three atheist friends I have say that that part of the reason they don't believe is because the nature of God makes no sense to them. God is love yet he keeps people alive to be tortured forever? It seems like such a contradiction that based on that alone they think the whole thing is flawed.
If the Bible says unbelievers are tortured forever then we can't change that, but that's not what I believe it says. There are so many verses that oppose those couple of verses in Revelation. Should we reinterpret all of the verses that say the wicked are destroyed ( and there are a ton) based on those verses in Revelation or does it make more sense that we're interpreting the verses in Revelation wrong?
I tend to not form a strong opinion on this for the same reason. As I stated, I don't believe the Bible is very clear on this, and when the Bible doesn't go into specifics, I tend to find that there is a reason for that. To insist on a single interpretation is to add opinion to the mix, creating a doctrine that is basically Bible-based, but not always very sustainable. The word "Sovereignty" is basically thrown around too easily. An action that God does is Holy because God is Holy. This is true. We know that God does not do evil, so His actions are not evil even when they appear to be so to us. However, we also know that there is another reason beyond this. We may not know the reason, but there is one. An act doesn't just become magically "right" because God does it. God is Holy because God doesn't do evil. Therefore, if He doesn't do evil, then the actions itself must not be evil. Not just because "Sovereignty lol", but because God is not dualistic. To rely on the old "It's good because God is Holy" just doesn't cut it. God does good, and therefore it must be good is only slightly more accurate. I suspect the reality is a bit beyond our comprehension, though it is fairly interesting to explore the idea.
And yes, I do believe it is a worthy discussion. However, the discussion becomes much less worthy when there is no actual exchange of ideas happening. That is unfortunately what I've been watching for the past hundred or so posts. It's basically two indoctrinated sides just spouting out their interpretation, but very little listening is happening. That tends to be a universal truth in Christian churches. Oddly enough, around here many have rejected the Institutional church, and it seems to happen even more often.
In the end, Hell tends to be a very complex issue. There area LOT of ideas about it. There are a LOT of interpretations about it. I think in the end, a rational argument could even be made for annihilation-ism, thought I tend to view that as a bit more "wishful thinking" than anything else. I don't particularly exclude it as it's not a new belief. I just feel that there is a lot more evidence of an eternal punishment. The real question there is who is doing the punishing and tormenting, and what type of tormenting will there be? A fairly literal read of Scripture either points to a very complex system, or multiple non-Heaven destinations. Largely, the different systems seem to be combined into a single Hell for most Biblical scholars who certainly know a lot more than I do. As such, I tend to not form a concrete opinion on the subject and rely on simple faith while I continue to explore the possibilities.
Glomung
Account Closed
If you were to assume, as some do, that the "life" we are given has some of the same "immortal nature" that is a characteristic of God Himself, then "annihilation" becomes an impossibility.
In another sense, "annihilation" would actually be the only true instance of murder.
Really, the only reason that any of this is an issue to be argued at all is the endless "apparent contradictions" that arise from a literal interpretation of scripture.
In another sense, "annihilation" would actually be the only true instance of murder.
Really, the only reason that any of this is an issue to be argued at all is the endless "apparent contradictions" that arise from a literal interpretation of scripture.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
Reading the whole Bible literally seems to support Annihilationism, in my opinion.
Rom 6:23 ESV For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If this was some other book, and not the Bible, everyone would know the meaning of this sentence. It's clear and to the point. Should we say that death doesn't mean death because this comes from the Bible? Sure, the Bible has lots of figurative language, but I feel like this contrast is really consistent.
(Mat 19:29 ESV) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.
(Mat 25:46 ESV) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Joh 3:15 ESV) that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
(Joh 3:16 ESV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(Joh 3:36 ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
(Joh 4:14 ESV) but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
(Joh 5:24 ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 6:27 ESV) Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
(Joh 6:40 ESV) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
(Joh 6:47 ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
(Joh 6:54 ESV) Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:68 ESV) Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
(Joh 10:28 ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 17:3 ESV) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
I feel like reading all of these verses at face value shows that what you get from Salvation is eternal life, and an escape from perishing/death.
Rom 6:23 ESV For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If this was some other book, and not the Bible, everyone would know the meaning of this sentence. It's clear and to the point. Should we say that death doesn't mean death because this comes from the Bible? Sure, the Bible has lots of figurative language, but I feel like this contrast is really consistent.
(Mat 19:29 ESV) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.
(Mat 25:46 ESV) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Joh 3:15 ESV) that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
(Joh 3:16 ESV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(Joh 3:36 ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
(Joh 4:14 ESV) but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
(Joh 5:24 ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 6:27 ESV) Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
(Joh 6:40 ESV) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
(Joh 6:47 ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
(Joh 6:54 ESV) Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:68 ESV) Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
(Joh 10:28 ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 17:3 ESV) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
I feel like reading all of these verses at face value shows that what you get from Salvation is eternal life, and an escape from perishing/death.
Which passages would you use to show that the life God gives us at birth has "immortal nature"? A quick search for "immortality" in the Bible shows that immortality is reserved for the righteous/believers (http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=immortality&qs_version=NIV)
For a man to kill another man is murder (and even then there are exceptions- there are certain crimes for which the death penalty is required in old testament law). However, if God is the one who gives life, and chooses to no longer give life, ie. to remove that privilege, I don't think we can say it's unjust. God is the giver of life, and He has the right to take back what He has given (see the parable of the ten minas, Luke 19:11-26).
Look these scriptures are plain as day..they don't need a bunch of mans logic added to them and the first "lesson" that a real bible student should learn is that God is right no matter if any man likes it or not? And I really don't care what you or others think about me, I care about the clear and evident truth of Gods Word. If what I am posting is so ignorant of reason, why is it bothering some so much? I will tell you why? Because they are trying to promote a false doctrine and these few scriptures destroy that false doctrine. So why should I present any other or attempt to magnify my opinion above what God has said in such plain and simple words? Now that would be silly of me.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
For my part I'm not bothered by those verses...
I said what I had to say about them in #384 and #387.
Nobody's asking you to invent anything- just to say what you think those verses prove.
I'm sorry that you are unable to understand that my point about illegitimate totality transfer directly addresses your point about the word "destroyed." Try reading it again.
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