Annihilationism
- Thread starter Huntingteckel
- Start date
- Status
Yea its odd how they attack when you expose their errors...
MichaelH
Inactive
Ken, you did not answer my questions above. You ignored me, then you come and post about Fallacy.
Answer my questions first, sow the same respect that you want.
You also missed my point about Your word "Destroyed" i showed you it can mean someone lost who needs the Lord. My point was if you had taken the time to read was that since it's a word that can be translated many ways, then it's best not to use it to build a doctrine out of it.
Since your clueless on how the Holy Spirit intended to use the Word and since we know the Word used means to mar, loose, be lost, destroy, In a figurative way, or actual way then that is not enough to mislead others on and teach.
You also have ZERO scriptures about a persons spirit being destroyed.............. You can never claim something is scriptural if there is actually no scripture to do so........
I mean surely your not that ignorant right? I have hope for you, but your not doing a very good job here. All you do is say.... watch that video and watch that video and ignore half of what I am saying, which you felt I did to you and I said sorry and changed it. I went back to take the time and read exactly what you believe and said.
That scripture, do unto others............... You know that one right?
Man up, stop with the watch video's nonsense as you will stand before the Lord and answer him.......... What are you going to tell Jesus.................. Well, ummm............ you see Lord, my position was........ ummm........... hey Lord, why don't you watch this video, explains everything.............. ummmmmm
amazing.
I know I am coming in late so I have a lot to read and don't want to repeat what has been said so I will wait to respond about annihilationism but I will respond about the Universalists now so forgive me if I am repeating someone. Now Universalists (which I assume you are not talking about the Universal Kingdom of God Church which I saw in another thread) believe every path leads to God and is good. I have a sister who goes to a Universalist church. She is of the Buddhist mindset and her husband is Catholic. She believes everyone will achieve Nirvana. She finds the gospel enraging because of its narrowness that there is only one way to God. The gospel is the gospel. I do not see how someone can believe all ways to God are good and be a true believer in Christ since the true gospel is that there is only one way to be saved and that is faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. I think it is important to remember that Satan tricks people through niceties and false love which is the great deception in the New Age movement which this church is definitely a part of. Love is what Jesus did for us and can only come from God because real love requires faith since "everything that is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). These false doctrines seem loving because it is hard to comprehend someone in eternal torment, but they are not loving because they give people a false sense of security and love allowing them to be eternally in hell (which I will speak about later if everything is not already covered in the 16 pages).
So do you see these teachings as related to universalist teachings you have seen in the past...Olivia? Cause I have really been trying to figure out what is really at the root of this stuff?
Yea its odd how they attack when you expose their errors...
Bible verses, that is what am for one, is looking…
Major and MichaelH presented verses to support the counter argument.
Look at your first post # 5 and then the second post # 32…
It seems to me: Proceed to discuss!, then a bunch of verses were given, Ooops, next time?
Then you attack the argument in general?
Bible verses please, an appeal to emotion is a fallacy.
People come to Christ for all different reasons including those who realize there is an eternal hell and need a way out. Watered down beliefs lead to more water downed beliefs. Look at abortion. At one point it was seen as an atrocity. Now it is seen by many as a good thing to do so that the person can have their life devoted to themselves. Those who call themselves Christians who attend a Universalist church would not be able to be accepted by the others if they were so cruel as to believe in everlasting punishment. It would be a complete dichotomy to the belief of acceptance of all ways to God is good and against the love and harmony philosophy that is the basis of the church.
Well don't do that then...
What do you mean?
A bible study does not ask for a bible verses to support a claim?
So do you believe that these folks are from that universalist mindset? And of course man wants to replace his ideas of right and wrong with those of God...that's the product of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...we see that at work in all false doctrine. But Im interested in understanding why this group has appeared on this forum (out of the blue) and has focused only on this issue in this militant manner, as to suppress anyone that rejects these clear and false doctrines?
what do you mean? If one rejects the clear reading and intention of scripture, why waste time presenting more scripture ? That's just a silly waste of time
You just keep posting and presenting the scripture that defeats their false doctrine until they give up trying to teach the false doctrine...watch I will show you how it works...
I will have to read through the posts since I have 15 more pages to see what has been happening, but I have to get my son breakfast and go somewhere so it might be later.
Look lets make it simple...What we are referring to is the "lake of fire"
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Lets also make this clear, if God does it, its just! This whole concept that man needs to judge how God punishes the wicked? Is a direct product and fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...whereby man attempts to exalt his judgment above that of God.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Lets also make this clear, if God does it, its just! This whole concept that man needs to judge how God punishes the wicked? Is a direct product and fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...whereby man attempts to exalt his judgment above that of God.
Check it out they are "new" members that came DIRECTLY to this thread, without introduction or in any way concerned about any other topic? I think they are trying to run over anyone who disagrees with them on this issue. They are running some kind of con..and Im curious as to why?
No I mean people being tormented forever, not being totally destroyed. I mean in Rev 20 where the devil will be tormented day and night forever, I just don't see how he will be tormented day and night forever but people will be totally destroyed.
MichaelH
Inactive
Universalism goes back to the 1500's does not have a denominational belief, so it's hard to pinpoint all the different forms of it. Certain pentecostal groups have a form of it mostly spread from the 30's to the 80's until it lost popularity, they called it reconciliation.
This belief core root is that God will not have anyone lost, or loose any of his created people.
Annihilationism Goes back to the to the 1916's and is a much newer idea. In this view, God does loose folks, but they do not have any punishment coming to them for rejecting their creator. They are just destroyed and that is the end of them. Hell is so hot I guess in their view it is able to burn up a spirit.
Ken's View: Is a watered down version of Annihilatioism. He sounds good until you get to the core of his belief. Ken believes there is punishment and a waiting in Hades, but after the judgement (2nd death) all those who did not make it are cast into the Lake of fire and destroyed. So they get tormented for a bit then destroyed.
Ken believes your able to skip over many of the scriptural contradiction in this way up until the end where those in the lake of fire have torment night and day, Eis Aion, Aion. His doctrine just falls apart much later instead of right away like Annihilationism does.
It all reminds me of the Original Trinity doctrine given in 325ad. In that original doctrine the Holy Spirit was not mentioned and Jesus is not the Father but of the same substance of God. They created this new God substance to explain why both the son and Father are equally God, but not the same person.
Later on it was amended (Like a lot of years later) to included the Holy Spirit in that substance.
Folks then who believed in the original and amended doctrine could not really prove it in the Word so they came up with their own versions of the Trinity doctrine. (The original was not really based on but a couple scriptures loosely and was not even written with the thought of explaining God, but a rebuttal against the Areans belief that Jesus was just some demi god)
1914 the oneness doctrine was invented and it split the Assemblies of God church in 1926.
Then modelism came which is mixing trinity with oneness in a vain attempt to explain it all in scriptures. This is what happens when folks want to believe something and since they want to believe it will twist and do what they can with scripture to make it so.
All these concepts came from that first meeting in 325ad...............
All these doctrines are rooted in Universalism. Anything to twist and make Eternal punishment go away.
As the years go by, folks have realized they need to change their doctrine a bit to be more scriptural sound. Not real sound, but enough to fool people.
This is what Ken has done as he will say........ I believe in punishment............... but..............
And any destroying of the wicked, I take to mean physically. How can eternal punishment mean someone being totally destroyed? God is not the author of confusion, He wouldn't use eternal punishment if people are going to be totally destroyed, He would use eternally destroyed. Wouldn't He?
Last edited:
Watch his video at about the 1 hour point...he cant answer that himself, but just kind of says "he don't like it, so it cant be true"...
MichaelH
Inactive
The devil is not alone, I provided scripture that the same wrath and 2nd death will also be faced by people. Jesus mentioned it to the churches in Rev 2.
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
(Rev 14:7)
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:9-11)
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
(Rom 2:5-6)
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
They all get the same as the devil and have a part in the Lake of fire with Him. ZERO scripture denoting they burn up and the devil is not burned up. Satan is a created spirit just like people are.
Watch his video at about the 1 hour point...he cant answer that himself, but just kind of says "he don't like it, so it cant be true"...
Amazing people are that self deceived.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
Mitspa, I would assume that they, like me, spend a lot of time on Google researching. They probably found this thread by searching for Annihilationism or Conditionalism and wanted to discuss it.
RethinkingHell is a popular site, Mitspa. I've had it bookmarked for quite a while. And who cares if they know each other?
It would seem like it but you have to keep in mind that our English Bible was translated from Greek and Hebrew texts written a long time ago. If you've ever read C. S. Lewis you can tell that even less than 100 years ago we were wording things slightly differently.
RethinkingHell is a popular site, Mitspa. I've had it bookmarked for quite a while. And who cares if they know each other?
It would seem like it but you have to keep in mind that our English Bible was translated from Greek and Hebrew texts written a long time ago. If you've ever read C. S. Lewis you can tell that even less than 100 years ago we were wording things slightly differently.
- Status