I have some really good reasons as to who I believe are the two witnesses, but will post this video for now, and then we can talk, ask and answer questions:
The Two Witnesses
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Some say they are Elijah and Moses.
Other say Elijah and Enock.
Even others say they will be people who have never lived on this earth, or angels...(neither of which I believe are true).
There are a number of reasons I don't think Moses fits the picture as to the identity of the second witness in Revelation 11.
Going by what is universal as a blanket, governing rule for all mankind, we have this:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Some have claimed that the Lord's Sovereignty allows Him to choose exceptions. This challenge to the universality of Hebrews 9:27 is questionable, because one could then level challenges, on the basis of God's Sovereignty, against any other universal declaration in the scriptures, such as:
1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I invoked the context so that it is clear to all that Paul was speaking of the Lord's will for ALL men, but just some, not most, but ALL.
So, dare we open up the door to calling into question various of the universal declarations of the Lord, we create serious breaches in the trustworthiness of what we read throughout scripture.
For the second witness to be Moses, some unlikely things would have to happen that are contrary to scripture:
1) Moses would have to be physically resurrected to die a second death, contrary to Hebrews 9:27.
2) Moses would have to be denied his glorified body when all the OT saints who had died receive theirs at the rapture, and his glorified body would then have to be subject to being killed, which is extremely unlikely, in order for Revelation to be true.
There are other reasons, but those will suffice at this time.
Since we are told this about the second coming of Elijah:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
So, this pretty much leave Enoch and Elijah, the only two men we can reasonably say were taken before they had died a physical death.
Much is still shrouded in silence, including any declaration as to the two witnesses being those two men. Some people have other interpretations of the two trees and lampstands. Given that this is a peripheral issue, and what we ARE told about the two, it seems more reasonable they are two men rather than two groupings of people murdered and left laying dead for three days before being raised up.
So, what are your thoughts?
MM
Other say Elijah and Enock.
Even others say they will be people who have never lived on this earth, or angels...(neither of which I believe are true).
There are a number of reasons I don't think Moses fits the picture as to the identity of the second witness in Revelation 11.
Going by what is universal as a blanket, governing rule for all mankind, we have this:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Some have claimed that the Lord's Sovereignty allows Him to choose exceptions. This challenge to the universality of Hebrews 9:27 is questionable, because one could then level challenges, on the basis of God's Sovereignty, against any other universal declaration in the scriptures, such as:
1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I invoked the context so that it is clear to all that Paul was speaking of the Lord's will for ALL men, but just some, not most, but ALL.
So, dare we open up the door to calling into question various of the universal declarations of the Lord, we create serious breaches in the trustworthiness of what we read throughout scripture.
For the second witness to be Moses, some unlikely things would have to happen that are contrary to scripture:
1) Moses would have to be physically resurrected to die a second death, contrary to Hebrews 9:27.
2) Moses would have to be denied his glorified body when all the OT saints who had died receive theirs at the rapture, and his glorified body would then have to be subject to being killed, which is extremely unlikely, in order for Revelation to be true.
There are other reasons, but those will suffice at this time.
Since we are told this about the second coming of Elijah:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
So, this pretty much leave Enoch and Elijah, the only two men we can reasonably say were taken before they had died a physical death.
Much is still shrouded in silence, including any declaration as to the two witnesses being those two men. Some people have other interpretations of the two trees and lampstands. Given that this is a peripheral issue, and what we ARE told about the two, it seems more reasonable they are two men rather than two groupings of people murdered and left laying dead for three days before being raised up.
So, what are your thoughts?
MM
I'm of the opinion that they're Enoch and Elijah because they're the only humans who have not died.
It's fascinating how so much of Evangelicalism refuses to embrace the pre-glorification rapture and that Moses will not be one of the two witnesses. When tasked with finding one verse anywhere that even remotely indicates that anyone who has ever died a physical death among the OT saints will be denied the transformation into glorified bodies at the moment of the rapture, they can only argue from silence from all that I have seen.
[Please keep in mind that this is not a debate about when the rapture will occur.]
It has been argued that even Enoch and Elijah will have glorified bodies at the rapture as well, but there are problems with that.
Where it's true that Abraham's Bosom down in Sheol was populated by the OT saints until Jesus descended to lead them free after their sins had been utterly and absolutely washed away by the Blood of the Lamb, it's likely (although not absolutely true) Enoch and Elijah remained in that place until placed back upon the earth since their corrupted flesh was still upon them...flesh that had not yet died.
Here is yet another universal declaration:
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Now, granted, this one has been argued as being so universal that, when referring to the hand full of people who will be partakers of the "first resurrection," their bodies must fall dead wherever they may be in those moments, and then they are raised up incorruptible.
I can't agree with that avenue of thought because of the wording Paul used in his description:
1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those whose bodies do not experience death because of their sin, which will be very few when compared to the entire population of all humanity throughout all of time, it is in THEM that the victory of death is swallowed up by their not having experienced death at the moment of their "change."
Given what Paul revealed for the whole world to see, he clearly stated that not all will "sleep." In centuries past, and even some to this very day, have taken this verse to support their theory of "soul sleep" until the rapture. Well, thanks to the Lord that the scriptures systematically refute that belief by way of his choice of Greek wording, as stated in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
"metaphorically, and euphemistically equivalent to to die (cf. English to fall asleep): John 11:11; Acts 7:60; Acts 13:36; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 51"
MM
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Some have even argued that John, still in his physical body, was in Heaven to see all those things of which he wrote in Revelation.
Hmm, let's see if that stands up to scrutiny:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day.
Hmm, so even John, a Jew, incarcerated on Patmos, recognized that day "...the Lord's day..." as does the non-legalistic groups and denominations.
The Sabbatarian dogma has a hard road to travel on that one.
MM
Hmm, let's see if that stands up to scrutiny:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day.
Hmm, so even John, a Jew, incarcerated on Patmos, recognized that day "...the Lord's day..." as does the non-legalistic groups and denominations.
The Sabbatarian dogma has a hard road to travel on that one.
MM
Wow. Post #6 above is more profound than what I had realized before.
Where it's true that worship has become a way of life for the true believer, rather than something turned on and off at a special purpose building, such as a temple or an alleged "church building and service," look at what John said:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet...
John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Do you see it?
John is showing something to us that I have never, to this day, ever heard a sermon or teaching session.
What say y'all?
MM
Where it's true that worship has become a way of life for the true believer, rather than something turned on and off at a special purpose building, such as a temple or an alleged "church building and service," look at what John said:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet...
John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Do you see it?
John is showing something to us that I have never, to this day, ever heard a sermon or teaching session.
What say y'all?
MM
My beloved, it's my hope that this will bless you immensely, and that you will share these solid, glorious things from God's word with others.
I have grown so weary of radio groups such as AFR (American Family Radio), and others, who are very much like secular reporting, always focusing on the evil and depressing news in (mostly) politics and culture. Rarely have I ever heard them interject the more important aspect within it all, which is the hope and light of the most important TRUTH within all of modern events in politics and culture: God is in TOTAL CONTROL over it all! Evil can only increase if and when God Himself allows it. Given that the Lord sees even every hop a sparrow makes on the ground or in the trees, He sees every evil, and its results, and is in total control over it all at His good pleasure.
Wow.
MM
I have grown so weary of radio groups such as AFR (American Family Radio), and others, who are very much like secular reporting, always focusing on the evil and depressing news in (mostly) politics and culture. Rarely have I ever heard them interject the more important aspect within it all, which is the hope and light of the most important TRUTH within all of modern events in politics and culture: God is in TOTAL CONTROL over it all! Evil can only increase if and when God Himself allows it. Given that the Lord sees even every hop a sparrow makes on the ground or in the trees, He sees every evil, and its results, and is in total control over it all at His good pleasure.
Wow.
MM
Well brothers......I will have to be the one who disagrees.
Please note that Elijah and Enoch, who were translated (a picture of raptured) without dying were taken up, as Hebrews 11:5 says of Enoch. This means they would have new bodies, raised immortal and incorruptible and could not die. The two witnesses, however, die at the hands of the beast.
So there you have it: the two witnesses cannot be Enoch and Elijah, nor Moses.
If you recall..........Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised. The Lord did indeed show Moses the Land of Promise of which the twelve tribes of Israel would inherit, but God did not allow Moses to enter. So if the two witnesses are sent to preach in Jerusalem during the Tribulation, then that would mean that God would have to one day change His mind and allow Moses to physically enter the Promise Land. However, nowhere in scripture is God’s change of heart expressed. And even though Moses was present during the transfiguration of Christ along with Elijah, I believe that the presence of Moses in this instance was a spiritual manifestation and not a physical appearance.
Now consider the FACTS.........
Scripture does not identify the two witnesses by name, and no well-known person is associated with their coming. God is perfectly capable of taking two “ordinary” believers and enabling them to perform the same signs and wonders that Moses and Elijah did just as He did with them. There is nothing in Rev. 11 that requires us to assume a “famous” identity for the two witnesses.
Now, in Zecheriah 4, God’s power to sustain His work is flowing through two individuals set apart for the task. In Zechariah’s context, these two individuals are Joshua (the current high priest) and Zerubbabel (the current governor of Judah).
We can also see a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ here, as the Messiah would combine the offices of priest and king. Then we come to Revelation 11:4. In the description of the two witnesses, John says.......
“They are ‘the two olive trees’ and the two lampstands, and ‘they stand before the Lord of the earth.’”
John quotes from Zechariah 4.
The two witnesses of Revelation, LIKE Joshua and Zerubbabel, will have God’s power flowing through them to accomplish God’s work.
It is my personal opinion/assumption that since the TWO men will be preaching from the Temple in Jerusalem that they will be "Converted Jews" who are saved at right or after the Rapture. God will supply them with the same power and authority that He did with Moses and Elijah.
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Amen!
I am sorry that you were never able to be in a church service or teaching class where I expounded on that very same topic!
With all due respect.......what has that got to do with them being the Two witnesses.
If we follow that line of reasoning, then ALL of the Raptured believers will have to return to the earth to die and the Bible says that Raptured believers have glorified bodies and are unable to die in book of Hebrews.
Hmm. Major, would you show to us where it's stated that Enoch and Elijah were taken up in glorified bodies, given that all the other OT saints who died did not have glorified bodies yet, and were held captive in Sheol because their sins had not yet been fully atoned? Even Enoch was born in sin, which also includes Elijah and all the other of the OT Patriarchs and saints.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: ...
This is the first time I have heard from anyone that those two received their glorified bodies before Christ Himself. How could they be in the perfection of Heaven before their sins had been completely stoned for by the Blood of Christ, while all the other OT saints were held captive in Sheol until after the atonement?
Please elaborate.
This is an interesting take, and I agree with you that Moses will not be one of the two witnesses. This can be considered yet another rationale as to why Moses is not one of the two.
Well, I would have to disagree on this point, given this:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
I understand the tendency to allegoricalize this to try and make it subjectively refer to a number of other potential people, based on one's own choosing, which I've seen some people do in other forums, but I tend to take it to mean exactly what it says because, had it been allegorical, then it seems reasonable to expect that the text would indicate that by way of language that lends ample evidence for it being in the category of types and shadows, but this is quite concrete...at least, for ONE of the two witnesses.
The question could then be asked, "For what other purpose would Elijah return at the beginning of, or right before, the Tribulation?"
Some out there might say that the two don't textually appear until chapter 11 of Revelation, and therefore they appear on the scene only closer to the middle, or the middle of the first half. Well, that's problematic because it assumes that the revelation to John should have stated that at the beginning rather than closer to the middle. This, therefore, assumes that the importance of two witnesses in relation to all the other elements covered for the beginning of the tribulation SHOULD have been closer to the beginning, b y way of mention. Well, as for me, I'm not going to place myself in the judgement seat against the Lord as to how He should have inspired the order of mention in His revelation to mankind. It appears to have been fit into the order of things according to the Lord's own pleasure, and I will leave it at that.
So those two men, who died physical deaths, are stated somewhere to not receive their glorified bodies at the rapture of all the OT saints who had died a physical death. I would really need to see this expressed in the text to accept it without question.
I see what you're getting at, but when taken on the basis of the fact that those two will be denied being raised up in glorified bodies, in the face of that fact that Malachi 4:5 says that Elijah will return, not before the birth of Christ, or before His earthly ministry, but before the "...great and dreadful day of the Lord." The proximity to the events, stated clearly in the text, seem to effectively refute what you're saying above.
But, as always with these kinds of discussions, all of that is up in the air for discussion, and it's fun to explore the thoughts and perceptions in all this.
Thanks, Major, for sharing this.
MM
Did you teach it in such a way that I would have been kept from falling asleep...
(Yawn!) I need more sleep, even right now. Insomnia is a tiring phenomenon.
MM
I guarantee you that you could not go to sleep!Did you teach it in such a way that I would have been kept from falling asleep...
(Yawn!) I need more sleep, even right now. Insomnia is a tiring phenomenon.
MM
Actually you are correct. I used the word Raptured by error.
Hebrews 11:5 says,
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death,”
The phrase “translated” or “taken away” come from the Greek word metatithemi, which means “to transfer to another place” .
Source: (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1997, “Translate, Translation”).
Actually, the prophet Elijah did not die at that time, nor did he go to God’s throne. He as did Enoch, entered the Paradise side of Sheol. He was transferred him to another place, Sheol.
John 3:13...........
"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."
It seems to me that Jesus is saying that Here, no person has ever gone to heaven and returned. The only person present on earth who was once in heaven is Christ Himself.
IMHO they were taken to the PARADISE side of Sheol. Then when Jesus ascended He took their spirts with Him to heaven. Then at the Rapture they will receive a GORIFIED body which will then be as I stated. This means they would have new bodies, raised immortal and incorruptible and could not die at that time.
Sorry for the confusion.
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As for Malichi 4:5.........consider Luke 1:17...........
"and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared".
I am one who believes that God will raise up a powerful man, in moments of the end times like John the Baptist, who comes "in his power" or the power of Elijah. To me, there is NO reason tho think that God will not DO what He has already done.
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Brother MM, I only used Joshua (the current high priest) and Zerubbabel (the current governor of Judah) as "PICTURES" or TYPES as an example of what God has already done.
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Now, allow me to put a bow on this. When the Rapture takes place, ALL the dead (Physical Bodies) will be raised and reunited with their Spirits.......and then will be in heaven with God..........Correct????
1 Thess. 4:16-17.........
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".
1 Corth 15:53 speaks of that same event and says.......
“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
Now, why would God give TWO men a glorified body, immortality that Hebrews says are eternal, back to the earth to die physically after they have been glorified?
What a blessing to speak with you on such a level! Always a treat.
Yes. Thayer's Greek Lexicon agrees:
1. to transfer: τινα followed by εἰς; with the accusative of place, passive, Acts 7:16; without mention of the place, it being well known to the readers, Hebrews 11:5
Well said.
I agree.
Hmm. I hope you don't mind my making an observation along this line:
All the other saints, besides Enoch and Elijah, had died physical deaths, and thus paid the price of death for that part of the outflow from sin. This sets them apart from all the others. That makes them special in relation to all the other Patriarchs and followers of Yah and His Law. I don't know of any verse that erases from consideration that one distinction that differentiates Enoch and Elijah from all the others.
Some have tried to shelter behind the idea of God's Sovereignty...in that if He wants to treat the two who had not died, the same as all others who had died a physical death, and that He can therefore do so. I will grant that there is some merit to that.
However, that's just a tad too convenient to my understanding. It smacks of indifference to the distinctives that draw attention to the fact that the distinctive exists. It cannot be denied.
Now, what it all means, that's a matter of discussion. I just wanted to make sure it remains in the forefront of thought in the discussion.
That indeed is the crux and canker of it all. I'm going to go out on a limb here in putting this forward as a possibility:
Enoch and Elijah are still in the Abraham's Bosom side of Sheol because of their distinct and established purpose for coming back to earth as the two witnesses, neither of whom died a physical death, but to die that physical death, and THEN be raised up in their glorified bodies after laying dead for three days, given that their still being in the fallen flesh, were not, and are not, in Heaven until AFTER they are killed and raised up incorruptible.
Why?
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This seems to lay to rest the fact that, if this is one of those blanket universals, then it must apply to Enoch and Elijah as well, albeit their deaths will happen at the hands of the man of sin in the tribulation period, but will also ensure the consistency of the word of God.
I hope that better explains what I was saying, and why?
Thanks, Major, for the conversation over this.
MM
Good stuff.
If we say that Enoch was snatched up from earth to heaven, and then we are told “that he did not see death.”
Now, A plain reading of Hebrews 11:13 speaking od the Ole Test. saints seems to say that Enoch actually did experience death.
"All these died in faith, without receiving the promises"!
Now we have another concern. "Enoch did not die.......ALL these died in faith".
Now after doing a little work on my memory and the Lexicon, we see that the Greek word for “died” in verse 13 is apothnesko, which refers to physical death. This helps us understand that verse 5 tells us that Enoch did not experience the death process. God snatched Enoch’s spirit away. While it is also possible that someone on earth buried his body, it is more likely that God caused his mortal body to just cease to existing. As I stated, When believers die, God takes their spirits to heaven. When the rapture occurs in the future (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), the mortal bodies of believers will be transformed into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). Therefore, the answer to the question, “Did Enoch die?” just may be yes, his body died, but he did not experience the dying process or suffer the pain and anguish of dying. How's that for going out on a limb?????????
Now for Enoch and Elijah being in Paradise now. I have never considered that possibility. I guess that is it possible but IMHO not probable. COULD that be the case...........Absolutely. I can not think of a reason for WHY NOT!
This I think is one of those..........Who knows moments. And, despite what our doctrinal logic tells us, scripture tells us that Enoch "was not; for God took him" (Genesis 5:24) and "was translated that he should not see death".
Bible also tells us that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven".
It could be that God gave them a special privilege and portion. Just like miracles, they were allowed to break the rules, so to speak. I am convinced that God enjoys messing up our neat systems so we will have to keep coming back to Him for truth. God's full truth will always be greater than any system we can conceive.
I am very glad that this is not an essential to being saved, cause I simply do not know!
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Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated [moved to another place] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Wow. It's a wonderful thing for it to be said by the Lord that one "pleased God." What an accolade.
So, he did not see death, which seems reasonable if one is in Abraham's Bosom, or some other special place not governed by this realm of time and death. It would follow, then, that his physical, although fallen flesh, would preserve until once again placed within the timeline of humanity as the Lord directs.
When you go out on a limb, you REALLY go out there among the twigs that would easily snap under my massive weight....
I blame that, of course, on the refrigerator....Well, perhaps we should limit what we name as "paradise." Jesus told the thief on the cross beside Him that the man would be with Him that very day in "paradise," which is where all the OT saints went after being led free from "captivity." So, was Abraham's Bosom paradise? I would think not given that those in that place were captive there until directly led free from there by the Lord Himself...at least, that's what we've been told thus far within the text.
Were/Are Enoch and Elijah still there, with the full understanding that their day is yet to come for them to die the physical death that was commanded of all men, which I quoted, as did all the other OT saints? Well, I would think so, but my understanding isn't infallible. That's why I like looking into the clues left to us.
We also know that Abraham's Bosom was not a place of torment, but rather comfort given that there is comforting water there, that the rich man asked that Lazarus dip his finger into and place on the rich man's tongue...which shows us that even those who died and were/are in Sheol have tongues and experience suffering on that side of torment. Hmm, we could probably write a whole book on the little hints and clues given to us of a place we have never seen...
If Enoch "was not," that would seem to indicate to us that even his body was not to be found, nor his bones. The only bones of the men of that caliber we are told about are those of Elisha; the bones of which allegedly brought a dead man back to life whose dead body was lain upon those of Elisha's bones.
You are absolutely right that this not an essential, and I'm glad for that, for the mystery of the Gospel was revealed by Paul who stated that its mystery is Christ in us, the hope of glory. It doesn't get any better than that.
One thing I will say is that, yes, the Lord does many things to confound the conceitedly wise of this world, but He doesn't do that so much among His elect who love Him. As we get closer to that great day of the Lord, He has been revealing more and more to us of things that were utterly hidden in even just a decade ago. Revelation is happening at a very rapid pace as we approach that Day.
Amen
MM
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated [moved to another place] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Wow. It's a wonderful thing for it to be said by the Lord that one "pleased God." What an accolade.
So, he did not see death, which seems reasonable if one is in Abraham's Bosom, or some other special place not governed by this realm of time and death. It would follow, then, that his physical, although fallen flesh, would preserve until once again placed within the timeline of humanity as the Lord directs.
When you go out on a limb, you REALLY go out there among the twigs that would easily snap under my massive weight....
Well, perhaps we should limit what we name as "paradise." Jesus told the thief on the cross beside Him that the man would be with Him that very day in "paradise," which is where all the OT saints went after being led free from "captivity." So, was Abraham's Bosom paradise? I would think not given that those in that place were captive there until directly led free from there by the Lord Himself...at least, that's what we've been told thus far within the text.
Were/Are Enoch and Elijah still there, with the full understanding that their day is yet to come for them to die the physical death that was commanded of all men, which I quoted, as did all the other OT saints? Well, I would think so, but my understanding isn't infallible. That's why I like looking into the clues left to us.
We also know that Abraham's Bosom was not a place of torment, but rather comfort given that there is comforting water there, that the rich man asked that Lazarus dip his finger into and place on the rich man's tongue...which shows us that even those who died and were/are in Sheol have tongues and experience suffering on that side of torment. Hmm, we could probably write a whole book on the little hints and clues given to us of a place we have never seen...
If Enoch "was not," that would seem to indicate to us that even his body was not to be found, nor his bones. The only bones of the men of that caliber we are told about are those of Elisha; the bones of which allegedly brought a dead man back to life whose dead body was lain upon those of Elisha's bones.
You are absolutely right that this not an essential, and I'm glad for that, for the mystery of the Gospel was revealed by Paul who stated that its mystery is Christ in us, the hope of glory. It doesn't get any better than that.
One thing I will say is that, yes, the Lord does many things to confound the conceitedly wise of this world, but He doesn't do that so much among His elect who love Him. As we get closer to that great day of the Lord, He has been revealing more and more to us of things that were utterly hidden in even just a decade ago. Revelation is happening at a very rapid pace as we approach that Day.
Amen
MM
I do believe that Abrahams Bosom is Paradise.
I do believe that is where Jesus went during the time He preached to the captives after His death.
The Rich man could SEE and TALK with Abraham but could not cross the Gulf to touch him.
In theology there is the teaching of an " intermediate state ". That refers to the present location of a person’s spirit after death and before our future bodily resurrection. The spirits of both unbelievers and believers exist in an intermediate state after death waiting for their bodily resurrection.
Now I am NOT promoting that, just saying that it is out there. I personally believe that when a Believer dies today, his spirit goes immediatly to be with God in heaven.
However, The spirits of unbelievers who have physically died are currently in the TORMENTS side of Hades waiting for the great white throne judgment to occur which is described in Revelation 20:11. The parable of Lazarus (a believer) and the rich man (an unbeliever) illustrates the intermediate state for believers and unbelievers (Luke 16:19-31).
Now if the "Intermediate State" is valid, then the believers of all the ages are still in the "PARADISE" side of Hades. The Bible however tells us that Jesus took CAPTIVITY, Captive when He assended which many believe that is Christ taking the PARADISE side with Him to heaven. Unbelievers will receive their immortal bodies when they are resurrected at the time of the great white throne judgment. Currently, they are disembodied spirits in Hades; that is, they do not have a body. Yet, spirits are real and have life. In Revelation 20:11-15 we discover that the final state of unbelievers is the Lake of Fire.
I have always leaned to the teaching that Jesus emptied the PARADISE side of Hades becuase the saints there were waiting on His shed blood for the removal of their sins.