Physical Ailments vs Martyrdom/Torture?

crossnote

crossnote

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Assuming we are speaking of Christians...
Since the source is the same ...

(John 10:10 ESV)
The thief (satan) comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Is there a difference between a person being tortured or persecuted versus long term suffering with long term physical disabilities such as cancer, since satan is the source of both?
 
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crossnote said:
Is there a difference between a person being tortured or persecuted versus long term suffering with long term physical disabilities such as cancer, since satan is the source of both?
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This is such an interesting thought crossnote. I am truly provoked to ponder.

I would think they are separate.... A martyr dies because he is a CHRISTIAN by means of violent force from a physical enemy.
When I say this... what comes to mind are the Christians who are brutally murdered in other countries.

From personal experience... I have suffered SEVERE MENTAL ANGUISH by way of CHRONIC, SEVERE DEPRESSION for over 50 years without reprieve of any kind. I honestly do not know how I managed to survive all those dark years.

I do not feel it was a demonic attack... although I have been told that depression is a demon.
I feel it was partially genetic as both my parents suffered with mental illness... and I also feel it was from the incredible trauma and neglect by my mother....plus abandonment of my father.

The JOY and PEACE that I am experiencing is something that I have been GIFTED since my supernatural encounter with God.. 4 years ago.

I blame illness on the fact that we live in a fallen world. There are also physical consequences to our behaviour. If a child is NOT raised properly by their parents.... there are going to be coping issues as an adult. ADD on to that... all the poor choices that I made as an adult... and BINGO.... you have TROUBLE.

I am going to do a DEEP think about your question. This is my answer without pondering.

You ask... Is there a difference? One dies for the sake of his faith and the other suffers regardless of his faith.
 
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crossnote said:
Assuming we are speaking of Christians...
Since the source is the same ...

(John 10:10 ESV)
The thief (satan) comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Is there a difference between a person being tortured or persecuted versus long term suffering with long term physical disabilities such as cancer, since satan is the source of both?
Click to expand...
I think we need to place martyrdom and physical ailments into separate categories. Martyrdom is directed especially against God's children while ailments are a common issue for all humanity, both saved and unsaved. So, no I wouldn't have them both in the same subset, despite their ultimate genesis deriving from the Fall.
 
forgiven61 said:
is because of the sin in the garden .. i do not give the devil credit
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People should be careful when giving credit to the devil. Although he is ultimately responsible for evil, he is not always the active agent instigating it. There are two other sources of instigation: fallen angels (demons) and our common sin nature. Before attributing fault to a personal temptation we experience, we should remember the angelic limitations placed on Satan and his demons. They can be in only one place at one time (not omnipresent); they can do only certain things because God controls their power (not omnipotent); they cannot read your thoughts unless you share the thoughts with them (not omniscient). More often than not, we are responsible for our own failures and temptations.
 
BibleLover said:
I think we need to place martyrdom and physical ailments into separate categories. Martyrdom is directed especially against God's children while ailments are a common issue for all humanity, both saved and unsaved. So, no I wouldn't have them both in the same subset, despite their ultimate genesis deriving from the Fall.
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I did say in the OP...Assuming we are speaking of Christians...
 
BibleLover said:
People should be careful when giving credit to the devil. Although he is ultimately responsible for evil, he is not always the active agent instigating it. There are two other sources of instigation: fallen angels (demons) and our common sin nature. Before attributing fault to a personal temptation we experience, we should remember the angelic limitations placed on Satan and his demons. They can be in only one place at one time (not omnipresent); they can do only certain things because God controls their power (not omnipotent); they cannot read your thoughts unless you share the thoughts with them (not omniscient). More often than not, we are responsible for our own failures and temptations.
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Jn 8:44 states, " He was a murderer from the beginning, All death, sicknesses, and diseases are a result of the Fall which was instigated by satan's lies. The result being hatred (persecution) towards fellow man (Cain/Abel) and sickness
2 Timothy 4:20 ESV
Erastus remained at Corinth, and I left Trophimus, who was ill, at Miletus.

Sometimes God is the source of calamity/evil...
Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Genesis 12:17 ESV
But the LORD afflicted Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife.

True, satan and his demons are not omnipresent but there may be enough of them to go around
 
BibleLover said:
I think we need to place martyrdom and physical ailments into separate categories. Martyrdom is directed especially against God's children while ailments are a common issue for all humanity, both saved and unsaved. So, no I wouldn't have them both in the same subset, despite their ultimate genesis deriving from the Fall.
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exactly
 
BibleLover said:
More often than not, we are responsible for our own failures and temptations.
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yes we are i know a woman with cancer at this time.. possibly this might be her last christmas.. there are those who will say because of sin in her she is not healed.. i am %100 for anointing with oil praying for the sick.. scriptures tells us us in marl 9 all things are possible to him who believes.. now then the next part of this scripture the father says i believe but help my unbelief.. ( thats us to some degree) i dont care who it is if your stricken with bad sickness and not healed its not because of our lack of faith.. but yes sickness and horrible things done to people are 2 separate things. this week in our community we had a tragic house fire 3 perished the father died trying to rescue his two daughters.. the mom is clinging to life on a vent fighting a infection her and the son survived.. iam sure some out there will give the devil credit.. the father did martyr his life trying to retrive his 2 young daughters
 
forgiven61 said:
disagree there is No darkness in him. as in darkness ==evil rev 12 tells us who the author of evil is
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Agreed.
crossnote said:
Sometimes God is the source of calamity/evil...
Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD
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Darkness doesn't always equal evil. But I believe the verse to mean, that God has power and authority over all situations. He can never be the author of evil. Calamity isnt inherently evil, for example, a hurricane, a flood, a tornado, etc.

1 John 1 : 5
"This then is the message which we have heard from Him and declare unto you: that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all."
 
cocoa said:
Agreed.

Darkness doesn't always equal evil. But I believe the verse to mean, that God has power and authority over all situations. He can never be the author of evil. Calamity isnt inherently evil, for example, a hurricane, a flood, a tornado, etc.

1 John 1 : 5
"This then is the message which we have heard from Him and declare unto you: that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all."
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Are you an expert in Hebrew? I'm just going by the translations, as some say 'calamity' instead of evil. What is your take on the Fall? Did God allow that by allowing satan to tempt A&E?
 
crossnote said:
Are you an expert in Hebrew? I'm just going by the translations, as some say 'calamity' instead of evil. What is your take on the Fall? Did God allow that by allowing satan to tempt A&E?
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By no means am I an expert on Hebrew or any language, not even English🫠.

God allowed the fall to happen. Adam and Eve were given to freedom to make their own choice. And Satan and the other fallen angels made their choice.
 
cocoa said:
By no means am I an expert on Hebrew or any language, not even English🫠.

God allowed the fall to happen. Adam and Eve were given to freedom to make their own choice. And Satan and the other fallen angels made their choice.
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Do you believe God could have prevented satan from entering the Garden in the first place?
 
crossnote said:
Assuming we are speaking of Christians...
Since the source is the same ...

(John 10:10 ESV)
The thief (satan) comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Is there a difference between a person being tortured or persecuted versus long term suffering with long term physical disabilities such as cancer, since satan is the source of both?
Click to expand...
yes, as one who is persecuted, harmed, even killed in the name of Jesus was being directly assaulkted by enemies of God, while rest of us are enduring common resluts of the Fall, aka, diseases, bodies breaking down etc
 
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