John 3:22 vs John 4:2

[Skipper]

My Bible study group is going through John verse by verse and recently encountered these two at our last meeting.

We had a hard time understanding why John 3:22 states Jesus was baptizing but then John 4:2 corrects it and says He Himself wasn’t baptizing.

I think we understand that He didn’t actually baptize anyone but was present for His disciples to baptize but why isn’t 3:22 clearer on that point? They really do seem to contradict so could it possibly be a translation issue? Or maybe John wrote 3:22 then decided to clarify in 4:2 rather than change 3:22?

 

[crossnote]

John 4:1-2 NLT
Jesus knew the Pharisees had heard that he was baptizing and making more disciples than John [2] (though Jesus himself didn't baptize them-his disciples did).

John 4:1-2 ESV
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John [2] (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

John 4:1-2 NASB95
Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John [2] (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

John 3:22-23 NLT
Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people. [23] At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there; and people kept coming to him for baptism.


John 3:22-23 ESV
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. [23] John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized

John 3:22-23 NASB95
After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. [23] John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized-

It doesn't look like a translation problem, there is that clarification in Jn 4:2 perhaps because 'the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John'. The clarification being that it wasn't Jesus that was baptizing, but rather His disciples.

"The statement that Jesus “baptized” (vv. 22, 26) probably means He was overseeing the baptizing done by His disciples (4:2)."-Bible Knowledge Commentary

 

[blueskies]

They really do seem to contradict so could it possibly be a translation issue?

The clarification being that it wasn't Jesus that was baptizing, but rather His disciples.

Perhaps it’s not a translation issue but an interpretation issue.

I thought the baptism John is writing about here is not a Christian baptism, but baptism about the kingdom that Jesus is offering to Israel. I was under the assumption that Christian baptism, the way we know baptism, was not instituted until after the resurrection.

Good topic, thank you Skipper.

 

[Skipper]

Perhaps it’s not a translation issue but an interpretation issue.

I thought the baptism John is writing about here is not a Christian baptism, but baptism about the kingdom that Jesus is offering to Israel. I was under the assumption that Christian baptism, the way we know baptism, was not instituted until after the resurrection.

Good topic, thank you Skipper.

I think the Jews at the time had their own cleaning ritual they referred to as baptism. I don’t think it was exactly like what we do now but more of a ritualistic cleansing.

 

[crossnote]

I think the Jews at the time had their own cleaning ritual they referred to as baptism. I don’t think it was exactly like what we do now but more of a ritualistic cleansing.

Perhaps...
Acts 19:3-5 NKJV
And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." [4] Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[blueskies]

Back tracking a bit to John 1:33

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

And then Mathew 3:11

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[Prim90]

My Bible study group is going through John verse by verse and recently encountered these two at our last meeting.

We had a hard time understanding why John 3:22 states Jesus was baptizing but then John 4:2 corrects it and says He Himself wasn’t baptizing.

I think we understand that He didn’t actually baptize anyone but was present for His disciples to baptize but why isn’t 3:22 clearer on that point? They really do seem to contradict so could it possibly be a translation issue? Or maybe John wrote 3:22 then decided to clarify in 4:2 rather than change 3:22?

John 3:22 states Jesus and the disciples were in the land of Judea and there he tarried with them, and baptised. Verse 23, 24 states that John the Baptist was also baptising in AEnon near to Salim for he had not been cast into prison yet. The alleged contradiction is cleared up in the next chapter as you said in John 4:2 that it was under Christ’s authority that the disciples were baptising and not Christ himself. No translation issue.it’s just that a clearer picture is explained in the following chapter

 

[Major]

My Bible study group is going through John verse by verse and recently encountered these two at our last meeting.

We had a hard time understanding why John 3:22 states Jesus was baptizing but then John 4:2 corrects it and says He Himself wasn’t baptizing.

I think we understand that He didn’t actually baptize anyone but was present for His disciples to baptize but why isn’t 3:22 clearer on that point? They really do seem to contradict so could it possibly be a translation issue? Or maybe John wrote 3:22 then decided to clarify in 4:2 rather than change 3:22?

What is actually a contradiction?
A contradiction occurs when two or more claims conflict with one another so that they cannot simultaneously be true in the same sense and at the same time. To put it another way, a Bible contradiction exists when there are claims within the Bible that are mutually exclusive in the same sense and at the same time.

So when John 4:2 stated that “Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were” it is not contradicting but instead completing John 3:22 that Jesus Himself literally was not doing the physical water baptism but His disciples were doing it instead. However John 3:22 stating Jesus was baptizing in light of John 4:2 meant that His disciples were doing baptism under the leadership of Jesus. Jesus was baptizing in the sense of being the leader of His disciples who were baptizing.

It would be the same if a Captain was said to have fought in a battle when in fact it was the men under him who did it.

 

[Origen]

Perhaps it’s not a translation issue but an interpretation issue.

You are quite right. It is an interpretation issue and had nothing to do with translation. The Greek text without a doubt says that Jesus baptized.

 

[bobinfaith]

My Bible study group is going through John verse by verse and recently encountered these two at our last meeting.

We had a hard time understanding why John 3:22 states Jesus was baptizing but then John 4:2 corrects it and says He Himself wasn’t baptizing.

I think we understand that He didn’t actually baptize anyone but was present for His disciples to baptize but why isn’t 3:22 clearer on that point? They really do seem to contradict so could it possibly be a translation issue? Or maybe John wrote 3:22 then decided to clarify in 4:2 rather than change 3:22?

Hello Skipper;

I'm reading very good posts to your topic John 3:22 vs John 4:2

In John 3:22, 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.

In my understanding Jesus was bringing new believers to Him by way of spiritual baptism or a baptism of repentance (and could be followed by the baptism of water immersion.)

John 4:1-2, 1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

Jesus was delegating the baptism of repentance (spiritual baptism) and cleansing (water immersion) to His disciples.

This is my understanding of these two passages. Jesus was humbled and continued the work of John with His disciples and also delegated this important practice to them as they would continue baptizing in the book of Acts 2:41.

Your study group is learning an important teaching as the practice of baptism must continue.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Origen]

I think the Jews at the time had their own cleaning ritual they referred to as baptism. I don’t think it was exactly like what we do now but more of a ritualistic cleansing.

It is called a "Mikvah" (Hebrew = מִקְוָה, i.e. bath) and there is a great deal of archaeological evidence for them.

Mikveh found near Jerusalem’s Temple Mount may have been used by priestly family

***

www.haaretz.com

Ritual Bath Found at the Western Wall in Jerusalem | Patterns of Evidence

The building of an elevator to access the Western Wall led to the exciting discovery of an elite Jewish ritual bath that overlooked the Second Temple.

www.patternsofevidence.com

This one was found at Qumran.


This one was found near the southern steps of the temple.

 

[Major]

You are quite right. It is an interpretation issue and had nothing to do with translation. The Greek text without a doubt says that Jesus baptized.

Brother, I do not seek to argue with anyone, however I think we all can see that the Bible does not specifically record anyone being baptized by Jesus. There are a couple of verses that seem to indicate that Jesus baptized people, but when we compare Scripture with Scripture, we conclude that Jesus did not personally baptize anyone. If we stand firm on the idea that He did, aren't we actually reading into Scripture what is not there.??

 

[crossnote]

oops, dyslexia at work

 

[Origen]

Brother, I do not seek to argue with anyone, however I think we all can see that the Bible does not specifically record anyone being baptized by Jesus. There are a couple of verses that seem to indicate that Jesus baptized people, but when we compare Scripture with Scripture, we conclude that Jesus did not personally baptize anyone. If we stand firm on the idea that He did, aren't we actually reading into Scripture what is not there.??

I agree.

Some verbs are said to be causative active or ergative active. This is, however, usually understood by context.

Here is an example in English:
Hitler murdered six million Jews. No one think Hitler personally killed all six million Jews by himself. He is ultimate source or cause of it.

Here is an example from John 19:1:
"Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him." (ESV)

Does anyone believe Pilate, himself, by his own hand, flogged Jesus? It is more likely that Pilate caused\ordered Jesus to be flogged.



What we have in verse 3:22 is a verb with a causative force, but we only know this given the context.

I think it perfectly fits the flow and purpose of John's pericope.

"After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he [i.e. Jesus] remained there with them and was baptizing." (3:22)

And they [John's Disciples] came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he [i.e. Jesus] is baptizing, and all are going to him.” (3:26)

"Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John..." (4:1)

Then in 4:2 John makes his point (i.e. "Jesus himself did not baptize"). In other words, he relegated that assignment to the disciples. That means that the verb in verse 3:22 can only be understood as a causative active (given the context) thereby clearing up the misconceptions of both John's Disciples and Pharisees that John points out.

 

[Origen]

.

 

[forgiven61]

John Baptist was external Jesus Baptism by the spirit is eternal .. this comes free of Charge Baptism does not save water can not take the Place of justification water baptism is a work which follows salvation . we have a local group around here. that is baptizing left and right and calling it the remission of sins .if this holds true then we throw away the Blood attornment

 

[Major]

I agree.

Some verbs are said to be causative active or ergative active. This is, however, usually understood by context.

Here is an example in English:
Hitler murdered six million Jews. No one think Hitler personally killed all six million Jews by himself. He is ultimate source or cause of it.

Here is an example from John 19:1:
"Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him." (ESV)

Does anyone believe Pilate, himself, by his own hand, flogged Jesus? It is more likely that Pilate caused\ordered Jesus to be flogged.



What we have in verse 3:22 is a verb with a causative force, but we only know this given the context.

I think it perfectly fits the flow and purpose of John's pericope.

"After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he [i.e. Jesus] remained there with them and was baptizing." (3:22)

And they [John's Disciples] came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he [i.e. Jesus] is baptizing, and all are going to him.” (3:26)

"Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John..." (4:1)

Then in 4:2 John makes his point (i.e. "Jesus himself did not baptize"). In other words, he relegated that assignment to the disciples. That means that the verb in verse 3:22 can only be understood as a causative active (given the context) thereby clearing up the misconceptions of both John's Disciples and Pharisees that John points out.

I understand completely what you are saying. I just think that in this case the context does not match the Scripture.
It would be easy to accept your thesis but again, it is reading into what we want it to say not what it actual does say.

 

[Skipper]

So since scripture in John 4:2 makes it clear He wasn’t physically baptizing people but it seems He was there overseeing it and, of course, baptizing in the spiritual sense, the question our group then asked was why didn’t He perform physical baptisms?

Obviously we can never know or grasp the mind of our Lord and His plan but we pondered in group if the reason for Him not physically baptizing was because He knew it would lead to some having arrogant attitudes about it. “Oh, you were baptized by John? Well, I can top that - I had the Lord baptize me!” Maybe it would have established some sort of hierarchy amongst believers. Of course, maybe the Lord didn’t do it because He had no need to as the spiritual baptism is what is truly important.

 

[crossnote]

So since scripture in John 4:2 makes it clear He wasn’t physically baptizing people but it seems He was there overseeing it and, of course, baptizing in the spiritual sense, the question our group then asked was why didn’t He perform physical baptisms?

Obviously we can never know or grasp the mind of our Lord and His plan but we pondered in group if the reason for Him not physically baptizing was because He knew it would lead to some having arrogant attitudes about it. “Oh, you were baptized by John? Well, I can top that - I had the Lord baptize me!” Maybe it would have established some sort of hierarchy amongst believers. Of course, maybe the Lord didn’t do it because He had no need to as the spiritual baptism is what is truly important.

I suppose it could be said that Paul did not baptize for a similar reason...

1 Corinthians 1:11-16 NASB95
For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. [12] Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." [13] Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? [14] I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, [15] so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. [16] Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

 

[Big Moose]

John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


And in chapter 4:
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Jesus would not baptize with ordinary water. He would baptize with the Spirit giving them this living water. We must be born again of Living Water and the Spirit. The Spirit came after Jesus ascended. Our baptisms we have are a representation of the death and burial we share with Christ, and of this baptism of the Spirit with Living Water.