Disciple vs. Apostle

[LearningToLetGo]

Here's something I just noticed:

In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor. (Luke 6:12-16)

Jesus gathered disciples first and only then appointed twelve as apostles. Odd that I never noticed this tidbit before.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Hello LearningToLetGo, I was about to comment, but then I thought of www.gotquestions.org and went to see if they have an article about this, and they do (and their understanding of Disciple vs Apostle is what I have always been taught). So, if you'd care to read what they have to say, just click on the following link and you can do so: https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-disciple-apostle.html

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Major]

Here's something I just noticed:

In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor. (Luke 6:12-16)

Jesus gathered disciples first and only then appointed twelve as apostles. Odd that I never noticed this tidbit before.

It is also true that Jesus had a lot more than just 12. Remember that at one point He sent out 70.

Jesus was establishing the Church and these twelve will be the ones to help establish it. When Jesus picks twelve, he was indicating to them and everyone else, that these were the ones who would help Him rule when He came into His kingdom. They represented a whole new Israel and when we get to the Revelation we see 24 Elders. I for one believe that that is the representation of the 12 Tribes of Jews and the 12 Apostles!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

It is also true that Jesus had a lot more than just 12. Remember that at one point He sent out 70.

Quite right. For some reason I had always thought he gathered his apostles first and then, apostles in hand, began to gain disciples. Guess I was wrong. This also explains the apparent discrepancy between Jesus sending out 70 vs sending out 12. While listening to the audio version of Luke earlier today, I realized he did both -- first he sent out the 70 and later the 12. Another tidbit I previously missed.

On a side note, could "70" be shorthand for "many", just as "70 times 7" is shorthand for "always" in the parable of forgiving? If so, then Jesus sending out 70 could have been another way of saying he sent our all his disciples, or as many as would go out. Just a thought.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Hello LearningToLetGo, I was about to comment, but then I thought of www.gotquestions.org and went to see if they have an article about this, and they do (and their understanding of Disciple vs Apostle is what I have always been taught). So, if you'd care to read what they have to say, just click on the following link and you can do so: https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-disciple-apostle.html

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

I suppose 'disciple' is like laity while 'apostle' is like priest. In other words, they carry a writ of commission.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Hello again LearningToLetGo et al, I believe disciple means "follower/learner", while an apostle is a "sent one" (if memory serves, that is .. I quickly skimmed it before posting it, but perhaps the Got Questions article addresses this?).

edit: Yes, the linked article in my last post https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-disciple-apostle.html addresses this.

I suppose the question is, was the Great Commission meant for the 12 alone, or for us all/for all of the Lord's saints throughout time? (interestingly, I am having this very discussion on another board right now, and my answer there was that the Great Commission was directed to all true believers throughout time, not to the 12 only).

Thoughts?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

1 Peter 2​

9 You are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;​

10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.​

​

 

[Major]

Quite right. For some reason I had always thought he gathered his apostles first and then, apostles in hand, began to gain disciples. Guess I was wrong. This also explains the apparent discrepancy between Jesus sending out 70 vs sending out 12. While listening to the audio version of Luke earlier today, I realized he did both -- first he sent out the 70 and later the 12. Another tidbit I previously missed.

On a side note, could "70" be shorthand for "many", just as "70 times 7" is shorthand for "always" in the parable of forgiving? If so, then Jesus sending out 70 could have been another way of saying he sent our all his disciples, or as many as would go out. Just a thought.

NO. 70 means 70 in this case. IMHO.

I would however go so far as to say that the 70 were part of the 120 gathered in the upper room on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out.

 

[Major]

Hello again LearningToLetGo et al, I believe disciple means "follower/learner", while an apostle is a "sent one" (if memory serves, that is .. I quickly skimmed it before posting it, but perhaps the Got Questions article addresses this?).

edit: Yes, the linked article in my last post https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-disciple-apostle.html addresses this.

I suppose the question is, was the Great Commission meant for the 12 alone, or for us all/for all of the Lord's saints throughout time? (interestingly, I am having this very discussion on another board right now, and my answer there was that the Great Commission was directed to all true believers throughout time, not to the 12 only).

Thoughts?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

1 Peter 2​

9 You are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;​

10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.​

​

That is a loaded question brother. IMO it has a two fold answer.

Originally the Great Commission was actually given to the ELEVEN.

Mark 16:14-15......
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

There are all kinds of linguistic problems with Mark 16:9-20. Many people go to "Got Questions .com" and allow me to quote from that site...............
"The oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark."

Now here is another passage of that same event in Matthew 28:16-20........
"Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

What's the difference. -----The SIGN GIFTS!

If and when and there are several denomination that do this, say that we as believers also have the SIGN GIFTS and use Mark 16 as their proof.

IMHO, the Great Commission was given to the ELEVEN just as the Scriptures state. THEN.....because we are believers in Christ we also are baptized into His death and resurrection we IDENTIFY with Him so as born again believers we should also be a part of telling the gospel story.

But I think that it can be easily seen how easy it is for men to read into a Scripture what they want it to say so that they can claim the Gifts that were given to the ELEVEN......"IF" in fact those gifts were given in the first place.

Now please understand.......I am NOT saying the ELEVEN + Paul later did not have the same ability as did Jesus. The Scriptures in Acts tell us that they did cast our demons and heal the sick and even raise the dead. We know Paul survived a snake bite and we know that Paul spoke in 5 different languages. However........remember WHERE they were and HOW they got there. No super markets, no pharmacies, no outdoor shops, no restaurants, no doctors and they walked in open toed sandels.

Thier job was to spread the gosple and write the New Test!

 

[Papa Smurf]

That is a loaded question brother. IMO it has a two fold answer.

Originally the Great Commission was actually given to the ELEVEN.

Hello Brother, yes, you are correct (as Matthew and Mark testify). I know this, so I'm surprised that I made that mistake. Thank you for the correction

There are all kinds of linguistic problems with Mark 16:9-20. Many people go to "Got Questions .com" and allow me to quote from that site...............
"The oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark."

The commentaries that I use conclude the same, but most (all?) are also in agreement that the later, non-canonical additions do not affect the meaning of the text in an adverse/heretical manner, especially soteriologically, so (as Dr. Carson) basically puts it, if you choose to believe that the additions are canonical, fine, and if you choose not to, fine as well (he chooses to regard the additions as just that, not canonical, John 8 and Mark 16, in particular, but he still teaches them as if they are, just FYI, with a quick nod to what he actually believes about them, of course ).

IMHO, the Great Commission was given to the ELEVEN just as the Scriptures state. THEN.....because we are believers in Christ we also are baptized into His death and resurrection we IDENTIFY with Him so as born again believers we should also be a part of telling the gospel story.

I agree.

But I think that it can be easily seen how easy it is for men to read into a Scripture what they want it to say so that they can claim the Gifts that were given to the ELEVEN......"IF" in fact those gifts were given in the first place.

That sadly, continues to be true, so what you said is always good to remember and consider. I also agree that Mark 16:9-20 has been and continues to be problematic for the church over the years (for the reasons that you just mentioned, in particular).

Now please understand.......I am NOT saying the ELEVEN + Paul later did not have the same ability as did Jesus. The Scriptures in Acts tell us that they did cast our demons and heal the sick and even raise the dead. We know Paul survived a snake bite and we know that Paul spoke in 5 different languages. However........remember WHERE they were and HOW they got there. No super markets, no pharmacies, no outdoor shops, no restaurants, no doctors and they walked in open toed sandels.

Thier job was to spread the gosple and write the New Test!

Yes, I believe (as does Dr. MacArthur BTW) that the sign gifts are very important and still exist/are still used whenever God knows that they need to be (tongues on the mission field, for instance). That said, I do not believe that God ever intended any of us to form churches around them and/or to use the gifts as a regular/central part of our Sunday services, for instance, like the churches that continue to handle poisonous snakes in their services and allow themselves to be bitten (to prove their faith ).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Major]

Hello Brother, yes, you are correct (as Matthew and Mark testify). I know this, so I'm surprised that I made that mistake. Thank you for the correction


The commentaries that I use conclude the same, but most (all?) are also in agreement that the later, non-canonical additions do not affect the meaning of the text in an adverse/heretical manner, especially soteriologically, so (as Dr. Carson) basically puts it, if you choose to believe that the additions are canonical, fine, and if you choose not to, fine as well (he chooses to regard the additions as just that, not canonical, John 8 and Mark 16, in particular, but he still teaches them as if they are, just FYI, with a quick nod to what he actually believes about them, of course ).


I agree.


That sadly, continues to be true, so what you said is always good to remember and consider. I also agree that Mark 16:9-20 has been and continues to be problematic for the church over the years (for the reasons that you just mentioned, in particular).


Yes, I believe (as does Dr. MacArthur BTW) that the sign gifts are very important and still exist/are still used whenever God knows that they need to be (tongues on the mission field, for instance). That said, I do not believe that God ever intended any of us to form churches around them and/or to use the gifts as a regular/central part of our Sunday services, for instance, like the churches that continue to handle poisonous snakes in their services and allow themselves to be bitten (to prove their faith ).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

Hey bro.......I WAS NOT IN ANY WAY CORRECTING YOU! There was no correction needed.

I was only giving "MY" understanding to your question of..........
"I suppose the question is, was the Great Commission meant for the 12 alone, or for us all/for all of the Lord's saints throughout time? "

Please do not think I was being corrective of you!!!! I was just giving my interpretation.

You do an amazing job of posting and I would never presume to be able to correct you!

I would only add here that the "Sign Gifts" given to the ELEVEN were for a reason and when that REASON was fulfilled, those ELEVEN no longer had those gifts. Those SIGNS were for the purpose of validating who they were.

Before the New Testament had been committed to writing, these signs served as supernatural confirmation of God’s Word. People would know that these messengers were from the Lord because of the miraculous gifts they possessed.

Those ELEVEN men + Paul had to travel all over the world. They walked in sandals and were susceptible to snake bites and they never knew when they would find drinkable water. They HAD TO speak in other dialects to be able to spread the gospel. When they healed the sick and raised the dead, they validated their divine calling.

However.......Once the New Testament was completed, the sign gifts were no longer necessary. Upon the death of the apostles, these miraculous gifts ceased to be exercised any longer. There is not one single Scripture in the Bible that says or suggests or implies that the office of the Apostle was to continue after the original 12 died and the New Test was written.

1 Corth. 13:8-9 is the confirmation of this as we read ..........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now some same that I am a "Cessationalist". But I am not. I am however a BIBLEIST! I accept what the Bible actually says.....Literally.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Hey bro.......I WAS NOT IN ANY WAY CORRECTING YOU! There was no correction needed.

I was only giving "MY" understanding to your question of..........
"I suppose the question is, was the Great Commission meant for the 12 alone, or for us all/for all of the Lord's saints throughout time? "

Please do not think I was being corrective of you!!!! I was just giving my interpretation.

Hello Major, I didn't think that you were being "corrective" of me, simply that you corrected a factual error that I made. I wrote "the 12" with the intention of defining the Apostles as a particular group among the other disciples, so I, in that sense, conveyed what I was intending to convey. Nevertheless, there were only 11 Apostles around at the time of His Ascension, not 12, so I was thankful that you pointed that fact out to me/us (a fact that I knew to be true, but stated incorrectly anyway).

You do an amazing job of posting and I would never presume to be able to correct you!

I appreciate the encouragement to be sure, but if you know (or even feel) that I am mistaken about something/anything in the future, I would prefer to be told about it if you have the time to do so. I'm here to learn from others, and also, whenever I can, to be helpful to others, but I never wanted factual incorrectness (or any other kinds of mistakes/errors) to be in the mix too IOW, I will appreciate getting your help whenever you know or feel that I may be in error somehow.

I would only add here that the "Sign Gifts" given to the ELEVEN were for a reason and when that REASON was fulfilled, those ELEVEN no longer had those gifts. Those SIGNS were for the purpose of validating who they were.

Agreed, as were the miracles that the Lord Jesus performed before men.

We are told in stories like Lazarus and the Rich Man that it's God's word, not miracles, that leads people to salvation, and the evidence for this is somewhat overwhelming when you also consider what happened during events like the Exodus, because Israel not only crossed the Red Sea on dryland the same 'year' that they built and worshipped the Golden Calf, I've read that they actually may have done so within the same 'month'

That seems somehow impossible to me, so if you know that the actual facts of the Exodus timeline are different than that, please don't hesitate to let me know. I mean, how could ANYONE forget something that they lived through that was that WONDROUS and AMAZING (and I'm sure frightening) to behold in less than a year, or even worse, in less than a month?? Thanks

Before the New Testament had been committed to writing, these signs served as supernatural confirmation of God’s Word. People would know that these messengers were from the Lord because of the miraculous gifts they possessed.

I agree again.

Those ELEVEN men + Paul had to travel all over the world. They walked in sandals and were susceptible to snake bites and they never knew when they would find drinkable water. They HAD TO speak in other dialects to be able to spread the gospel. When they healed the sick and raised the dead, they validated their divine calling.

However.......Once the New Testament was completed, the sign gifts were no longer necessary. Upon the death of the apostles, these miraculous gifts ceased to be exercised any longer. There is not one single Scripture in the Bible that says or suggests or implies that the office of the Apostle was to continue after the original 12 died and the New Test was written.

Agreeing yet again, especially concerning the RCC's doctrine of apostolic succession.

I believe that I differ from you a bit in this however, that the sign gifts are still in operation wherever/whenever they need to be, particularly on the mission field when (for instance) a brand-new people group is discovered living in the jungle somewhere, and living as if they were still in the stone age (without any knowledge of others, much less of the Lord Jesus, w/o a written language, and w/o any modern conveniences, such as a basic knowledge of modern medicines/health care). So, at least part of today's mission field may not be at all unlike the situation that the Lord and His Apostles faced in the 1st Century.

The two things that they oft times do seem to have is plenty of superstitions and deadly skills with spears

1 Corth. 13:8-9 is the confirmation of this as we read ..........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now some same that I am a "Cessationalist". But I am not. I am however a BIBLEIST! I accept what the Bible actually says.....Literally.

You may also be interested to know what MacArthur actually teaches about "the perfect", that,

​

Verses 9, 10 indicate that what will abolish knowledge and prophecy is “that which is perfect.” When that occurs, those gifts will be rendered inoperative. The “perfect” is not the completion of Scripture, since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future kingdom (cf. Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17; Rev. 11:3). The Scriptures do not allow us to see “face to face” or have perfect knowledge as God does (v. 12). The “perfect” is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers (cf. Is. 29:18; 32:3, 4; Joel 2:28; Rev. 11:3). The perfect must be the eternal state, when we in glory see God face to face (Rev. 22:4) and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth. ~MacArthur, J., Jr., ed. (1997). 1 Corinthians, Word Pub.​

​

Sproul, on the other hand, does teach that "the perfect" refers to the Lord's Second Coming, while also making mention that some believe it to be the completed NT Canon.

I was surprised to read what they both believe now.

Blessings to you in Christ!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Major]

Hello Major, I didn't think that you were being "corrective" of me, simply that you corrected a factual error that I made. I wrote "the 12" with the intention of defining the Apostles as a particular group among the other disciples, so I, in that sense, conveyed what I was intending to convey. Nevertheless, there were only 11 Apostles around at the time of His Ascension, not 12, so I was thankful that you pointed that fact out to me/us (a fact that I knew to be true, but stated incorrectly anyway).


I appreciate the encouragement to be sure, but if you know (or even feel) that I am mistaken about something/anything in the future, I would prefer to be told about it if you have the time to do so. I'm here to learn from others, and also, whenever I can, to be helpful to others, but I never wanted factual incorrectness (or any other kinds of mistakes/errors) to be in the mix too IOW, I will appreciate getting your help whenever you know or feel that I may be in error somehow.


Agreed, as were the miracles that the Lord Jesus performed before men.

We are told in stories like Lazarus and the Rich Man that it's God's word, not miracles, that leads people to salvation, and the evidence for this is somewhat overwhelming when you also consider what happened during events like the Exodus, because Israel not only crossed the Red Sea on dryland the same 'year' that they built and worshipped the Golden Calf, I've read that they actually may have done so within the same 'month'

That seems somehow impossible to me, so if you know that the actual facts of the Exodus timeline are different than that, please don't hesitate to let me know. I mean, how could ANYONE forget something that they lived through that was that WONDROUS and AMAZING (and I'm sure frightening) to behold in less than a year, or even worse, in less than a month?? Thanks


I agree again.


Agreeing yet again, especially concerning the RCC's doctrine of apostolic succession.

I believe that I differ from you a bit in this however, that the sign gifts are still in operation wherever/whenever they need to be, particularly on the mission field when (for instance) a brand-new people group is discovered living in the jungle somewhere, and living as if they were still in the stone age (without any knowledge of others, much less of the Lord Jesus, w/o a written language, and w/o any modern conveniences, such as a basic knowledge of modern medicines/health care). So, at least part of today's mission field may not be at all unlike the situation that the Lord and His Apostles faced in the 1st Century.

The two things that they oft times do seem to have is plenty of superstitions and deadly skills with spears


You may also be interested to know what MacArthur actually teaches about "the perfect", that,

​

Verses 9, 10 indicate that what will abolish knowledge and prophecy is “that which is perfect.” When that occurs, those gifts will be rendered inoperative. The “perfect” is not the completion of Scripture, since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future kingdom (cf. Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17; Rev. 11:3). The Scriptures do not allow us to see “face to face” or have perfect knowledge as God does (v. 12). The “perfect” is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers (cf. Is. 29:18; 32:3, 4; Joel 2:28; Rev. 11:3). The perfect must be the eternal state, when we in glory see God face to face (Rev. 22:4) and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth. ~MacArthur, J., Jr., ed. (1997). 1 Corinthians, Word Pub.​

​

Sproul, on the other hand, does teach that "the perfect" refers to the Lord's Second Coming, while also making mention that some believe it to be the completed NT Canon.

I was surprised to read what they both believe now.

Blessings to you in Christ!!

--Papa Smurf

Thanks for the response brother. We are on the same page......Almost!.

IMHO, the idea of a missionary visiting tribe of people somewhere in the middle of now where as a reason to think that the gift of tongues is still in operation just does not apply. Not to me.

It may however.......slide the door open just a little bit to then allow someone in Georgia to say......"See, that tribe in no where needed tongues to be used so that means I CAN do them too".

According to the Scriptures, IF a missionary came across such a group of people, AND he spoke to them they would then HERE what was being said in their own dialect.

However........THAT is not what we see taking place in churches all over the world. Those people are simply uttering unintelligible noises that make no sense and are never translated as they are NOT dialects at all.

The reason I say that because I was part of that at one time in my life.

Now as for the perfect. Far be it from me to say that brother Macarther and Sproul are incorrect in their comments.

All I can say is that IMHO we do not agree.
Lets look at the literal words..........."when the perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away”.

Heaven/Eternal state is NOT a something. It is a place of existence! Heaven does not come....we GO TO IT!

The Greek word here,,, τέλειον....for PERFECT does not always mean 'perfect'. It can also mean 'complete' depending on whether the context is masculine or feminine! Paul uses the adjectival noun, teleios, in place of explicitly saying, the Word, because it is already familiar to his audience.

Also...... the Greek word teleios carries several additional meanings including: complete, mature, full, fulfilled, having reached the end.
That alone would rule out the eternal state of heaven!

So, stay with me now, in the book by Source:
Robert L. Thomas (Understanding Spiritual Gifts, page 123) says that as far back as 1974 he proposed the meaning of 'complete' or 'mature', instead of the more usual 'perfect'. He also points out (page 124) that 'perfect' is not a suitable opposite to 'partial' (ἐκ μέρους).

The CONTEXT here is that something will come to replace the PARTIAL that was there in Paul's day as he wrote these words. The SIGN GIFTS IMHO were the PARTIAL evidence which validated what the Apostles were saying as they spread the Word of God. THEY raised the dead, they healed the sick, they drank poison water and survived viper bites. They spoke their own dialect and those who they spoke to HEARD THEM IN THEIR OWN DIALECT.

When the Bible, the Word of God was completed, there was then no need for these SIGN GIFTS to prove what was being said. The completed (TELEIOS) Word of God was the "PERFECT" thing which took away the PARTIAL!

Then as for the "Perfect" being the 1st or 2nd Coming of Jesus.....Note that the actual word of TELEIOS is translated as perfect, complete, mature. The meaning almost exclusively, When describing things instead of people, the gender will be neuter or, feminine gender. JESUS is not feminine!

 

[Papa Smurf]

Thanks for the response brother. We are on the same page......Almost!.

IMHO, the idea of a missionary visiting tribe of people somewhere in the middle of now where as a reason to think that the gift of tongues is still in operation just does not apply. Not to me. It may however.......slide the door open just a little bit to then allow someone in Georgia to say......"See, that tribe in no where needed tongues to be used so that means I CAN do them too". According to the Scriptures, IF a missionary came across such a group of people, AND he spoke to them they would then HERE what was being said in their own dialect. However........THAT is not what we see taking place in churches all over the world. Those people are simply uttering unintelligible noises that make no sense and are never translated as they are NOT dialects at all.

Right! The practice of speaking in "unintelligible utterances" like our charismatic churches engage in each week (sometimes with the entire congregation speaking/shouting/singing together, including the pastor(s) on mics, all at the same time w/o interpretation) is hardly what I had in mind here. Rather, the gift of tongues, as per Acts 2 (or something like it), is. I believe that the use of the various miraculous gifts can still serve the same kinds of purposes that they did in 1st Century, including their use as confirmation to an unknown people of both message and messenger, especially at first.

The reason I say that because I was part of that at one time in my life.

Me too The AoG was one of the three denominations that I considered joining after becoming a believer back in 86', but their principal focus, at least back then, was not on God's word (though that has apparently changed for the better in the last decade or so, at the denominational level anyway). The local churches that I have been a member of since becoming a believer (both Presbyterian and Evangelical Free) have all attracted large numbers of charismatic believers, who, like me, wanted the focus of their church to be on God's word (instead of on miraculous gifts).

Now as for the perfect. Far be it from me to say that brother Macarther and Sproul are incorrect in their comments.

I believe that at one time, both taught that "the perfect" was in reference to the completed Canon, which is why I found it interesting when I read what they had to say in their more recent publications.

All I can say is that IMHO we do not agree.
Lets look at the literal words..........."when the perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away”.

Heaven/Eternal state is NOT a something. It is a place of existence! Heaven does not come....we GO TO IT!

The Greek word here,,, τέλειον....for PERFECT does not always mean 'perfect'. It can also mean 'complete' depending on whether the context is masculine or feminine! Paul uses the adjectival noun, teleios, in place of explicitly saying, the Word, because it is already familiar to his audience.

Also...... the Greek word teleios carries several additional meanings including: complete, mature, full, fulfilled, having reached the end.
That alone would rule out the eternal state of heaven!

So, stay with me now, in the book by Source:
Robert L. Thomas (Understanding Spiritual Gifts, page 123) says that as far back as 1974 he proposed the meaning of 'complete' or 'mature', instead of the more usual 'perfect'. He also points out (page 124) that 'perfect' is not a suitable opposite to 'partial' (ἐκ μέρους).

The CONTEXT here is that something will come to replace the PARTIAL that was there in Paul's day as he wrote these words. The SIGN GIFTS IMHO were the PARTIAL evidence which validated what the Apostles were saying as they spread the Word of God. THEY raised the dead, they healed the sick, they drank poison water and survived viper bites. They spoke their own dialect and those who they spoke to HEARD THEM IN THEIR OWN DIALECT.

When the Bible, the Word of God was completed, there was then no need for these SIGN GIFTS to prove what was being said. The completed (TELEIOS) Word of God was the "PERFECT" thing which took away the PARTIAL!

Then as for the "Perfect" being the 1st or 2nd Coming of Jesus.....Note that the actual word of TELEIOS is translated as perfect, complete, mature. The meaning almost exclusively, When describing things instead of people, the gender will be neuter or, feminine gender. JESUS is not feminine!

I have been in agreement with your POV for years (as were both Sproul/MacArthur, if memory serves). That said, out of considerable respect for the teaching of both of those two brothers, I am considering taking another look at 1 Corinthians 13:10 to make sure that my understanding is indeed, the best understanding of that entire passage (Dv).

Thank you for taking the time to write everything that you just did, BTW, as it is VERY helpful, and it will be again if I ever get the time to look a little more closely at the passage and the other teachings about it

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Dave F.]

It may however.......slide the door open just a little bit to then allow someone in Georgia to say......"See, that tribe in no where needed tongues to be used so that means I CAN do them too".

I often wonder if while they are trying to speak in tongues of angels, they are actually hurling insults at them instead. They don't know what they are saying anymore than I know what they are saying. Teaching people that they must speak in gibberish is not biblical nor is it needful to glorify God.

 

[Major]

Right! The practice of speaking in "unintelligible utterances" like our charismatic churches engage in each week (sometimes with the entire congregation speaking/shouting/singing together, including the pastor(s) on mics, all at the same time w/o interpretation) is hardly what I had in mind here. Rather, the gift of tongues, as per Acts 2 (or something like it), is. I believe that the use of the various miraculous gifts can still serve the same kinds of purposes that they did in 1st Century, including their use as confirmation to an unknown people of both message and messenger, especially at first.


Me too The AoG was one of the three denominations that I considered joining after becoming a believer back in 86', but their principal focus, at least back then, was not on God's word (though that has apparently changed for the better in the last decade or so, at the denominational level anyway). The local churches that I have been a member of since becoming a believer (both Presbyterian and Evangelical Free) have all attracted large numbers of charismatic believers, who, like me, wanted the focus of their church to be on God's word (instead of on miraculous gifts).


I believe that at one time, both taught that "the perfect" was in reference to the completed Canon, which is why I found it interesting when I read what they had to say in their more recent publications.


I have been in agreement with your POV for years (as were both Sproul/MacArthur, if memory serves). That said, out of considerable respect for the teaching of both of those two brothers, I am considering taking another look at 1 Corinthians 13:10 to make sure that my understanding is indeed, the best understanding of that entire passage (Dv).

Thank you for taking the time to write everything that you just did, BTW, as it is VERY helpful, and it will be again if I ever get the time to look a little more closely at the passage and the other teachings about it

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

Thanks for the response. It is always a blessing to talk with you.

The reason I became informed Biblically on this topic is that as I grew older what I was reading and studying did not make sense. I was reading one thing in the Bible and hearing another thing from my pastor and congregation. Now as a teenager you do not want to think that the people you know and trust would purposely distort what the Bible said.......but that is exactly what I came to understand.

All of this led me to do the deep investigative work to know the truth so that I could correctly teach it to those I would pastor. That being the case what I found was this Greek Grammer answer.

In 1 Corinthians 13:10......“The perfect,” here is used as the nominative neuter singular adjective of TELEIOS τέλειος .
Therefore it is not a reference to Jesus Christ as some teach. The reason why some teach that it is Jesus is of course because He is the perfect Son of God. The secondary reason is that they want to believe in and practice the sign gifts given to the ELEVEN and this seems as a way to validate that ability.

Now, with just a little work with an open mind to know the truth anyone can find out that Jesus was never referred to in the neuter gender in all of the Scriptures. The neuter gender can only refer to a thing, so IMPO in this case, the completed Scripture is the only other Perfect THING I know of.

Then as I stated, some will say that the PERFECT THING is Heaven, our Eternal state. However, when we actually read the Scripture in question, the PERFECT/MATURE/COMPLETED is "something that is coming". Heaven does not come to us.....
we go to heaven .

Anyway.....that is my understanding of a difficult passage. But in all cases, Scripture must 1st be read as literal with context applied to an open mind without bias.

 

[Major]

I often wonder if while they are trying to speak in tongues of angels, they are actually hurling insults at them instead. They don't know what they are saying anymore than I know what they are saying. Teaching people that they must speak in gibberish is not biblical nor is it needful to glorify God.

Dave........we must be very careful here. "Tongues" is a prohibited topic here.

It is a sensitive area because there are many reading our words who speak in tongues and believe that it is Biblical.
It is really, really hard to change their minds and what I have experienced is that it always ends in confrontation and hostility.

I think that I can say that the people who speak in "tongues" do so for a couple of reasons.........
#1.
It is something that that have been taught to do and it is what the people around them do so it must be done so as to fit in. = Heard Mentality.

#2.
It allows the person to "feel" closer to God.= Tangible.

 

[Origen]

The neuter gender can only refer to a thing,

That is not necessarily the case. For example:

(1) The word τέκνον (i.e. child) is neuter.
(2) The word κοράσιον (i.e. girl) is neuter.
(3) The word δαιμόνιον (i.e. demon) is neuter.

 

[Major]

That is not necessarily the case. For example:

(1) The word τέκνον (i.e. child) is neuter.
(2) The word κοράσιον (i.e. girl) is neuter.
(3) The word δαιμόνιον (i.e. demon) is neuter.

Thanks for the comment.

I believe that you will find that TELEIOS is translated as perfect, complete, or mature. Also, When describing things instead of people, the gender will almost always be neuter or, in one instance, feminine gender.

In #1 and # 2 above we see that played out. Point was that Jesus is never referred to in the Feminine which would rule Him out as the "Perfect in verse #10.

 

[bobinfaith]

The "Toronto blessing" I think they call it, where they speak in tongues? bark like dogs and fall over backwards is fake. There are churches where they follow the apostle Paul's teaching, and If you have one in your area, I suggest you go to the Sunday morning communion service, but you might have to go a few times.

One of my teenage acquaintances was at Bible college with the intention of going on the mission field and he was learning the Hottentot clicks. Very, very difficult. Then a lot of countries put a ban on missionaries, and would only allow people like teachers and medics, but if people didn't have the local language, before going it was very difficult for them. That was like 60 years ago and now most people across the world speak a dialect of English, and of course they have their own religions as well.

Hello Robin;

I never heard of these. Please share a little more?

What is the Toronto blessing? Is it similar to the Azusa Street Pentecostal Revival of 1906?

And Hottentot? Were these a people from another country?

God bless you, brother.

 

[Major]

One of my teenage acquaintances was at Bible college with the intention of going on the mission field and he was learning the Hottentot clicks. Very, very difficult. Then a lot of countries put a ban on missionaries, and would only allow people like teachers, medics, and those with other skills, but if people didn't have the local language, before going it was very difficult for them. That was like 60 years ago and now most people across the world speak a dialect of English, and of course they have their own religions as well.
.

The argument of Going on a missionary trip, or being assigned to a country for service without knowing how to speak the local language is in fact TEMPING GOD.

Some will argue that if God wants those in that country to hear the gospel then the gift of tongues will apply in that situation.
The idea is.....IF God wants it to be done then He will make it happen!

That is TEMPTING GOD!

Luke 4:12.........
And Jesus answering, said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not test the Lord your God.'"