Worship through music

[Grant Melville]

Cturtle, thanks for your response. It's good for us to be 'in the word' when we're having these discussions.

The definition of the word worship according to the nlt is -to regard with great extravagant respect, honor or devotion. And looking in the Webster 1858...worship v.i. says to perform acts of adoration. One of the definitions from strongs is to humbly beseech, do reverance.... and whatever ye do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not unto men (colossians 3:17, 23-24) couldn't this verse fall under those definitions?

I think we have to see the theme of Colossians 3 in order to understand it. As a chapter it looks at our life in general - not specifically as gathered in assembly. I think it looks at us in the sphere of responsibility, rather than the sphere of privilege, and we get preservative teaching here. Putting to death our members which are on the earth, putting on bowels of compassion (et. al.), letting the word of the Christ dwell in us richly, and then the instructions to wives, husbands, children, fathers, bondmen... all these things would keep us safe and holy in an adverse scene, with our lives hid with the Christ in God (v 3). You mention verse 17, and this is very much in line with the preservative teaching of the chapter: "do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus" - that would prevent me from doing things I shouldn't do, because I have to do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus. If I love that Name, I wouldn't want to bring it into association with anything which is dishonouring. "Giving thanks to God the Father by him", yes, there would be worship in that. There would be worship in the thanksgiving. There wouldn't necessarily be worship in the word or the deed, which is why we should add thanksgiving to it. I don't worship God by eating a meal, but I give thanks to God before I eat it, and that would be in the spirit of worship. Verses 23-24 refers specifically to bondmen. We have to view that section in the context of obeying "in all things your masters according to the flesh". It isn't the service of God, it's the service of man, but even in those circumstances there's an oppurtunity to serve the Lord. It says "ye serve the Lord Christ". The word "serve" here is douleuo, a bondman's or slave's service. This isn't priestly service in the sanctuary. We have to distinguish between the two, otherwise we will end up conflating every act of the believer with worship.

As i was searching for references i found one that says...of Christ by: and one that comes up is the magi. The three kings that worshiped Jesus as an infant by presenting Him with gold, frankensence and myrrh.

We have to be governed by the scripture. It says of the magi: "And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11) The homage (or worship) and the gifts were two different things. It could be said that the spirit of worship moved these men to open their treasures and offer the gifts. It should also be noted that these men did not have the Holy Spirit, and we do. That changes everything.

As i read 2 Corinthians 9 it apears to me that Paul is encouraging them to give with a cheerful heart. And in vs. 12 we see that the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints, but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God. Meaning that when they gave their gifts...the people who received the gifts thanked and worshiped God for meeting their needs

Yes, that's a very important point. By this ministration to the practical needs of the saints, worship is produced. That one of the reasons why we should never neglect ministry to practical need.

And as i read down further God led me to 1 Chronicles 16:29......Give to the Lord the glory due His name, bring an offering and come before Him. Oh, Worship the Lord in the beauty of Holiness.
Here is what it says in my Open Bible......16:29 The Meaning of Worship "Worship refers to the supreme honor or veneration given either in thought or deed to a person or thing. The Bible teaches that God alone is worthy of worship (ps 29:2), but it also sadly records accounts of those who worshiped other objects......It is indeed tragic that many worshiped gods they could carry instead of the God that could carry them. God Almighty alone is worthy of worship (Rev 4:11)

1 Chronicles 16:29 we have on offering (the oblation, as it's specified in the New Translation by J.N.D.) which is Christ. An appreciation of the perfection of Jesus in Manhood, the fine flour mingled or saturated with oil which is the oblation... we can offer that to God in worship. It is supremely pleasing to Him. Understanding the types of the tabernacle, and growing in our appreciation of and love for Christ through that, that is what fills out and expands our worship, rather than any of the works we've been discussing on this thread. Our capacity for worship is only limited by the measure of our appreciation of Christ.

A. Worship requires reverance. This includes the honor and respect directed toward the Lord in thought and feeling. It is one thing to obey a superior unwillingly; it is quite another to commit one's thoughts and emotions in that obedience. Jesus said that those who worship God must do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). The term spirit speaks of the personal nature of worship: it is from my person to God's person and involves the intellect, emotions and will. The word truth speaks of the content of worship: God is pleased when we worship Him understanding His true Character.

Yes, obedience can be unwilling. That's the difference between obedience and subjection, isn't it? Obedience can be unwilling, grudging, enforced. Subjection (to God) is something taken on willingly, and obedience results from that. An insubject person can never be a worshipper, even if they are obedient through fear or whatever else. If we're subject, then we're "leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ." (2 Corinthians 10:5). Then we consider intellect, emotions and will. I know that my will has to go. I'm a dead man, crucified with the Christ - a dead man has no will. My will is contrary to God's, and it hasn't been reformed or improved by the work of God. It has to be surrendered entirely. Intellect is all right in its place, but even if I had the greatest intellect in the world, it wouldn't allow me to understand one iota of the truth. The Spirit must lead me into all the things of God. If rely on intellect, it's bound to lead to intellectualism, rationalism, finally to philosophy and vain deceit. That isn't every thought being led captive to Christ, quite the opposite. As for emotions, they're quite right in their place, but in the things of God mere emotion can't be relied on. John writes, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death." (1 John 3:14) The fact that we love the brethren is a sign that we're saved. Could we, when we were still far from God, love the brethren? Not in this way. Natural amiability might draw us to this brother or that sister, emotional bonds might bind us together, even through difficult times. But, there are times when the brethren try our patience. If my brother sins against me, I might find my natural feelings of comradeship waning. He might try my patience, and I, his. This is why we need divine feelings, spiritual feelings. Divine love, as displayed with unmatched fullness in the Person of the Lord Jesus, is what carries us through the most difficult times, together. Divine love binds me to the brethren with whom I have nothing natural in common, helps me through the difficulties which Satan would try to introduce amongst us. If human emotions fail and spiritual feelings are necessary to maintain our links with each other, how much more so are they needed for us to enjoy communion with God?

B. Worship includes public expression. This was particularly prevalent in the Old testament because of the sacrificial system. For example, when a believer received a particular blessing for which he wanted to thank God, it was not sufficient to say it privately; he expressed it publicly with a thank offering (Lev 7:12)

Absolutely. Worship is to be expressed publicly in the assembly, with a view to edification of the body.

C. Worship means service. These two concepts are often linked together in Scripture (Dt 8:19). Furthermore the words for worship in both testaments originally referred to the labor of slaves for the master. Worship especially includes the joyful service which Christians render to Christ their Master. The concept of worship must not be restricted to church attendance, but should embrace an entire life of obedience to God.

Yes, the service of God in the assembly is worship. It's priestly service Godward. We cannot restrict that or limit it to when we're gathered, we can worship at any time and in any place individually - Colossians 3 would show us that, in that we can sing with grace in our hearts to God (for example). What we have to be careful to distinguish is that not every act of the believer is worship. It may be accompanied by worship, but the act itself is not worship. For example, if I go about my daily work for my employer, and I do my tasks well, and I'm doing it to the Lord - then I'm being obedient to the word of God in Colossians 3 - it's pleasing to Him. Yet, if my mind is focused on the task in hand and my energies are devoted to doing my job, then I'm not perpetually occupied with divine things. But, in His grace, God gives me opportunities in the day, quiet moments in which I can "remember Jehovah from afar, and let Jerusalem come into your mind." (Jeremiahs 51:50). Like right now, in fact - I can use my lunchbreak to visit CFS, and read my Bible and enjoy some ministry. So, I'm not worshipping 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is why I should be "redeeming the time" (Ephesians 5:16). I should be making the most of every opportunity that I have to let Jerusalem come into my mind, to turn my thoughts to heavenly things and the heavenly One, and so worship would flow as I dwell on Him.

 

[Grant Melville]

What are you talking about?

There couldn't be any spiritual response to God from the emotions of an unconverted person, or even a converted person who didn't have the Spirit.

The spirit of man does not have feelings. Our soul does. Under control of the indwelling Holy Spirit, our soul connects and communicates and learns from our spirit man where Holy Spirit dwells, so that our emotions are righteous and holy---not carnal or fleshy. We are not to deny our humanity before the Father!

That simply isn't scriptural.

We are to guard ourselves against hyper-emotionalism, but when it comes to true worship, we need to include our emotions. He desires that we worship0 Him with our whole selves: body, mind (soul) and spirit...and that includes emotions. Being stoic with God is not righteous.

What is this based on, from the word of God?

I am of the opinion that you, among many others, including a denomination I have mentioned in the past to you, have taken on a false understanding of emotions and have labeled them as carnality, when they are not. It is very legalistic and a religious mindset that denies the full expression of joy and adoration with music in praise to our God.

It isn't so much that emotions are bad or wrong... it's simply that they're unnecessary if we're in full dependence on the Holy Spirit. He is here with us to provide a full response to God (among other things). His work is perfect - how could it be anything less, He is a divine Person. He knows the heart of the Lord Jesus with divine intimacy, as He knows our hearts. Complete dependence on the Friend of the Bridegroom will result in the gratification of the heart of the Bridegroom. That simple truth is what's been before me throughout all these discussions on the subject of musical instruments, or whatever else: the work of divine Persons is perfect and complete. My work is always going to fall short. It couldn't contribute so much as an atom to my salvation - it can't contribute so much as an atom to my response to God. The work of divine Persons is perfect - if I rest completely on it, then the response will never be anything less than full, complete, abounding, expanding for all eternity! There's immense, incalculable liberty in giving up self and all its works, and trusting fully and completely in God for all things and everything.

 

[Grant Melville]

Grant Hello,
I see where you are coming from here, However worship is MORE then just 10 minutes in a bible meeting or 20 minutes during a church service or even 2 hours in your living room. Yes those are examples of places of worship unto God AND THEY ARE ONLY one type of worship.

I agree with you - we can worship anywhere and at any time. But, worship is always the same, wherever we are, whatever the setting.

Worship should not be placed in a box as to it is only this and nothing else. We worship God and we Adore Him and We Love Him and we obey Him and so forth. When we deepen our Love for God we find that reverence is found in many different ways. We find that when we truly fall in Love with Him we begin to show forth this Love in everything we do. Why because we worship His entire being with our entire being.

How can we worship with our entire being, when we're in a mixed condition? We still have the flesh, Galatians 5 would show us that. We need to walk in the Spirit in order to deny opportunity to the flesh - in other words, we need to be totally dependent on the Holy Spirit. This involves the displacement of part of our being, the flesh.

How do you do anything Grant with your entire being ? Further more what exactly is our entire being ? It is everything we are and do. Worship is not just praise coming out of ones mouth from their heart. Worship unto God should be a part of everything we do. Our Love and adoration to God should flow out of everything we do as worship unto Him.

I don't do anything with my entire being, Jim. Either I'm fulfilling flesh's lust or I'm being led by the Spirit - and while I'm here in this condition, until the Lord comes to take me or to take us all, that will always be the case. There will also be a thorn in my flesh, to keep me humble. The whole experience would teach me to be dependent on the Spirit, because if I'm not, the flesh rears its head. It has to be kept down. But, thanks be to God, "the Spirit [is] against the flesh" (Galatians 5:17), it's not something I have to contend with in my own strength - I have divine power to subdue the flesh.

It will be hard to grasp this IF you take everything as unto the letter of the law.

God Bless
Jim

"But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under law." (Galatians 5:18). Blessed truth! To be liberated from everything that I am that must come under law, everything that has to answer to a holy and righteous God in the standing of its own righteousness according to law. All that is gone, and by the Spirit it doesn't have any sway with me anymore. That's true liberty, to be freed from self to be to God.

 

[Euphemia]

Divorcing oneself from emotion is called stoicism. The truth is that when Jesus Christ is Lord of one's life, one's emotions are not quelled but righteous...even anger. Don't forget that we were created in God's very image, which includes the full array of emotions. Being stoic before our awesome God is a sign of a fearful, not fully yielded heart.

 

[Grant Melville]

Divorcing oneself from emotion is called stoicism. The truth is that when Jesus Christ is Lord of one's life, one's emotions are not quelled but righteous...even anger. Don't forget that we were created in God's very image, which includes the full array of emotions. Being stoic before our awesome God is a sign of a fearful, not fully yielded heart.

I never said that we should be divorced from emotion. That sort of thinking comes from the same source as the idea that we're 'dead to nature', it's confusion. What I am saying is that a merely emotional response is not worship, and natural feeling is of no use in spiritual things.

It says in Ephesians 4:26, "Be angry, and do not sin; let not the sun set upon your wrath..." This anger isn't a surge of natural emotion, it's participation (to some measure) in the holy feelings of God, His feelings about sin. We see that in the Lord Jesus, when He expelled the money-changers and the dove-sellers from the temple. "And his disciples remembered that it is written, The zeal of thy house devours me." (John 2:17). This was the first Man of whom the scripture say that He was "full of the Holy Spirit" (Luke 4:1).

It's a wonderful experience to have spiritual feelings about things. The Holy Spirit would take us beyond what feeble, inconstant nature can provide, and teach us not to depend on it at all when we come before God. We have something much better.

 

[Euphemia]

I never said that we should be divorced from emotion. That sort of thinking comes from the same source as the idea that we're 'dead to nature', it's confusion. What I am saying is that a merely emotional response is not worship, and natural feeling is of no use in spiritual things.

Ah, but the kind of worship that pleases God is not "merely emotional", but encompasses all of us, including our God-given emotions!

It's a wonderful experience to have spiritual feelings about things. The Holy Spirit would take us beyond what feeble, inconstant nature can provide, and teach us not to depend on it at all when we come before God. We have something much better.

Please delineate what a spiritual feeling is as opposed to a feeling, seeing as our spirits do not feel, but our soul does.

Nowhere does anyone here promote the idea that we are to rely on our emotions. But when we come into the presence of God, His very presence evokes emotion within us, that we are free in Christ to express.

 

[Grant Melville]

Ah, but the kind of worship that pleases God is not "merely emotional", but encompasses all of us, including our God-given emotions!

Please delineate what a spiritual feeling is as opposed to a feeling, seeing as our spirits do not feel, but our soul does.

Nowhere does anyone here promote the idea that we are to rely on our emotions. But when we come into the presence of God, His very presence evokes emotion within us, that we are free in Christ to express.

If it encompasses all of us, does it encompass our flesh too? That element of us which lusts against the Spirit?

By "spiritual feelings", I mean feelings which result from the work of God in us, by the Spirit. These are feelings we could never touch on when we were unconverted and without the Spirit. Earlier I quoted 1 John 3:14 as an example.

I still don't see the scriptural basis for our natural emotions being engaged in the presence of God. Why would that be needed, when we have the Spirit?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I agree with you - we can worship anywhere and at any time. But, worship is always the same, wherever we are, whatever the setting.


How can we worship with our entire being, when we're in a mixed condition? We still have the flesh, Galatians 5 would show us that. We need to walk in the Spirit in order to deny opportunity to the flesh - in other words, we need to be totally dependent on the Holy Spirit. This involves the displacement of part of our being, the flesh.


I don't do anything with my entire being, Jim. Either I'm fulfilling flesh's lust or I'm being led by the Spirit - and while I'm here in this condition, until the Lord comes to take me or to take us all, that will always be the case. There will also be a thorn in my flesh, to keep me humble. The whole experience would teach me to be dependent on the Spirit, because if I'm not, the flesh rears its head. It has to be kept down. But, thanks be to God, "the Spirit [is] against the flesh" (Galatians 5:17), it's not something I have to contend with in my own strength - I have divine power to subdue the flesh.


"But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under law." (Galatians 5:18). Blessed truth! To be liberated from everything that I am that must come under law, everything that has to answer to a holy and righteous God in the standing of its own righteousness according to law. All that is gone, and by the Spirit it doesn't have any sway with me anymore. That's true liberty, to be freed from self to be to God.

Grant you ask how can we worship with our entire being for we are in a mixed condition and still have the flesh and then quote Galatians 5 and about walking in the spirit and not the flesh.

Are we told to love God with our Whole Heart ? This is also entire Heart and our heart is the core of our being. Worship would be a heart condition would it not. Of course it is. So what is the condition of your heart when you tithe or plant seed into the kingdom or confront a fellow employee? Our hearts should be in a condition of worship, praise, love for God in everything we do. If it is not then we are simply going through the motions and are as spiritual empty beings.

If you have to struggle with your flesh in everything you do then you need more developing in this area. Worship is an attitude of the heart - this attitude NEEDS to be in everything you do.

Grant also said ..I don't do anything with my entire being, Jim. Either I'm fulfilling flesh's lust or I'm being led by the Spirit - and while I'm here in this condition, until the Lord comes to take me or to take us all, that will always be the case

Why is that Grant ? You quoted Galatians 5 about walking in the spirit so you wont do what grant ? Would not this battle with your flesh fall into this ? When any one accepts this battle of the flesh as a thorn or something that will always be such a big battle until the Lord delivers one from this life - well they are putting back on the yoke of bondage that the Blood Of Christ destroyed....Sad part is that it does not even fit any more but there are those who will carry the thing around day after day belieiving there is no other way.

NEWS FLASH .............deliverence already happened.............it is there waiting on all of us and once we begin to put into practice and make it a habbit.........Galatians 5:16 and Romans 12:2 and 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

Romans 12:2 ....
And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God

(( Get His word in you each and every day and speak His word each and every day ))

2 Corinthians 10:4-5
4... For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to pulling down strong holds
5... Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

(( Begin to practice the words you speak and thoughts you think for our thoughts and words to control how we act or react and believe. Our own words do more do influence our thinking then most of everything else. ))

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh

(( The more you do the first two the more you will begin to walk in the Spirit and you will be amazed to say the least. ))

All done through the Grace of God - who maketh all grace abound to me. 2 Corinthians 9:8

Grant with all this said - the choice is ours to how much of our flesh we battle daily.
So perhaps it is time you seek God in Loving Him and doing things with your entire being.

If a person is simply obedient only in the things of God or another words goes through the motions as a legal format or action unto God then they are fooling them selves - joy, love, praise, thanks giving, forgiveness, "worship" all need to be in everything we do for it needs to be Who We Are.

God Bless
Jim

 

[Euphemia]

If it encompasses all of us, does it encompass our flesh too? That element of us which lusts against the Spirit?

YES---that element that we submit to Holy Spirit's renewal and control.

By "spiritual feelings", I mean feelings which result from the work of God in us, by the Spirit. These are feelings we could never touch on when we were unconverted and without the Spirit. Earlier I quoted 1 John 3:14 as an example.

You are still talking about emotions.

I still don't see the scriptural basis for our natural emotions being engaged in the presence of God. Why would that be needed, when we have the Spirit?

Well read the bible...in it are countless records of men and women of God emoting.

We as Christians have the indwelling Spirit, but our spirit man has no function for feelings. It is our soul (mind will and emotions) that contains the function for emotion.

 

[Grant Melville]

Thank you, Jim, for your brotherly words.

Grant you ask how can we worship with our entire being for we are in a mixed condition and still have the flesh and then quote Galatians 5 and about walking in the spirit and not the flesh.

Are we told to love God with our Whole Heart ? This is also entire Heart and our heart is the core of our being. Worship would be a heart condition would it not. Of course it is. So what is the condition of your heart when you tithe or plant seed into the kingdom or confront a fellow employee? Our hearts should be in a condition of worship, praise, love for God in everything we do. If it is not then we are simply going through the motions and are as spiritual empty beings.

If you have to struggle with your flesh in everything you do then you need more developing in this area. Worship is an attitude of the heart - this attitude NEEDS to be in everything you do

The heart is, of course, vital to worship. If the affections aren't engaged, then it isn't worship. It's impossible to follow a set of rules and arrive at worship. Ezekiel 36:26-27 springs to mind: "And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances, and ye shall do them." I believe that God is speaking to Israel here, but I think we can apply it ourselves. The heart and the spirit would be affections and life.

I don't think we should have to struggle with the flesh. I know that if I'm walking in the Spirit, there's no struggle. The flesh is subdued, overpowered. When I come into the presence of God, everything of self is displaced, and Christ fills my vessel.

Grant also said ..I don't do anything with my entire being, Jim. Either I'm fulfilling flesh's lust or I'm being led by the Spirit - and while I'm here in this condition, until the Lord comes to take me or to take us all, that will always be the case

Why is that Grant ? You quoted Galatians 5 about walking in the spirit so you wont do what grant ? Would not this battle with your flesh fall into this ? When any one accepts this battle of the flesh as a thorn or something that will always be such a big battle until the Lord delivers one from this life - well they are putting back on the yoke of bondage that the Blood Of Christ destroyed....Sad part is that it does not even fit any more but there are those who will carry the thing around day after day belieiving there is no other way.

I don't think I really expressed myself clearly - I didn't mean to imply that there's to be perpetual struggle. How could we know liberty and enjoyment of divine things if we were always battling and perpetually occupied with the awfulness of the flesh? No, what I mean is that if I'm walking in the Spirit, the flesh doesn't get an opportunity, it goes out of sight. I should be careful not to grieve the Spirit, but that isn't a case of thinking about how awful my flesh is and keeping it down by a great effort, it's a case of being mindful of the Spirit and always making room for Him. I only mention about fulfilling flesh's lust in order to show that we are in a condition where that might be the case. There is that in us which is apt to sin, which is the flesh. On the other hand, the work of God in us cannot sin, and that is perfectly suitable for the presence of God. The flesh though, by the Holy Spirit's operations, has to be excluded. That doesn't impinge, to the slightest degree, on our liberty before God, because we stand before Him clothed in the worth of Christ. But before we go in, we have to be self-judged, we have to have eaten of the sin-offering.

NEWS FLASH .............deliverence already happened.............it is there waiting on all of us and once we begin to put into practice and make it a habbit.........Galatians 5:16 and Romans 12:2 and 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

Romans 12:2 ....
And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God

(( Get His word in you each and every day and speak His word each and every day ))

2 Corinthians 10:4-5
4... For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to pulling down strong holds
5... Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

(( Begin to practice the words you speak and thoughts you think for our thoughts and words to control how we act or react and believe. Our own words do more do influence our thinking then most of everything else. ))

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh

(( The more you do the first two the more you will begin to walk in the Spirit and you will be amazed to say the least. ))

All done through the Grace of God - who maketh all grace abound to me. 2 Corinthians 9:8

Amen, sound words.

Grant with all this said - the choice is ours to how much of our flesh we battle daily.
So perhaps it is time you seek God in Loving Him and doing things with your entire being.

If a person is simply obedient only in the things of God or another words goes through the motions as a legal format or action unto God then they are fooling them selves - joy, love, praise, thanks giving, forgiveness, "worship" all need to be in everything we do for it needs to be Who We Are.

God Bless
Jim

I believe that's right, it's our choice how much of our flesh we battle daily. How much scope do we give it? How rigorous are we in our self-judgement? Are there parts of my flesh which I think are worth saving, that I think might be recovered if I refine and polish them? I have to give it up, all of it. That's the key to being free of it. And I won't lose sight of self by occupation with self - only occupation with the Lord Jesus will bring that about.

What I've been trying to communicate, through all these discussions, is the incalculable worth of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe all the scriptures point to it. They all exclude any thought of man's works, eloquence, sentiments - all these things are totally eclipsed by the bright shining of that Sun of righteousness, that incomparable Christ. I was struck recently in one of the beautiful touches early in Leviticus, regarding the peace-offering: "His own hands shall bring Jehovah's offerings by fire, the fat with the breast shall he bring: the breast, that it may be waved as a wave-offering before Jehovah." (Leviticus 7:30). The fat with the breast. The distinctive worth of Christ, together with an appreciation of His great heart of love. It says of the offerer "His own hands shall bring it", it was personal to him. His hands would be filled with the fat and the breast, such is the immensity of the worthiness of Jesus, and the vastness of that great heart! What else would there be room for, in the hands of that offerer, bringing the peace-offering? Nothing. What else would be needed? Nothing... nothing could be added. That is always my impression in the service of God in the assembly, when I'm presenting my offering (small though my measure is), that here is what is purely of Christ, and how blessedly sufficient it is! At that time, I disappear entirely in my own estimation. If there was anything left, any trace of self-regard, it's gone. How tremendous liberating that is - I can't describe it! There aren't words in human language to describe that experience, they all fall short. Not one element of that worship experience can really be described - but, oh, the sweet joy of it! Jesus, filling my vision, filling my heart, being poured out in the presence of God - the sweet savour ascending to the Father, His delight in it palpable! There's no experience like it, I can truly say, it stands alone. I want to use more words to describe it, I keep turning them over in my mind, the richest superlatives that are in my vocabulary, but they all fall so short of the mark! One word perhaps hints at it: heavenly. A heavenly experience. A taste of the unfading joy which waits for us in the Father's house above. Isn't it wonderful that we can touch that now? Eternal life isn't something we need to put off to a future time, it's something we can come into the good of now, by the Spirit. Something so... (well, words are failing me again)... well, so heavenly that it defies any other description.

 

[Grant Melville]

YES---that element that we submit to Holy Spirit's renewal and control.

You are still talking about emotions.

Well read the bible...in it are countless records of men and women of God emoting.

We as Christians have the indwelling Spirit, but our spirit man has no function for feelings. It is our soul (mind will and emotions) that contains the function for emotion.

I'm beginning to feel that this discussion has gone on longer than is really profitable. I feel we should end on a positive note, so I won't go into the above points any further. I was considering the whole issue earlier this evening, and the Lord brought Leviticus 10 to my attention in a very striking way. I believe that confirms everything that I've been trying to bring out in this discussion. I would encourage the brethren to consider that chapter, prayerfully and in dependence on the Holy Spirit.

 

[Euphemia]

I'm beginning to feel that this discussion has gone on longer than is really profitable. I feel we should end on a positive note, so I won't go into the above points any further. I was considering the whole issue earlier this evening, and the Lord brought Leviticus 10 to my attention in a very striking way. I believe that confirms everything that I've been trying to bring out in this discussion. I would encourage the brethren to consider that chapter, prayerfully and in dependence on the Holy Spirit.

You say this:

I don't think we should have to struggle with the flesh. I know that if I'm walking in the Spirit, there's no struggle. The flesh is subdued, overpowered. When I come into the presence of God, everything of self is displaced, and Christ fills my vessel.

...which is absolutely true. So, why do you think that the people of God fully worshiping the Lord in song, dance, musical instruments and shouts of joy is of the flesh?

As we are free people in Christ, we are free to shout in exultation and triumph, laugh and leap for joy and weep with gratefulness!

 

[Big Moose]

Psalm 33:
1 Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous!
For praise from the upright is beautiful.
2 Praise the Lord with the harp;
Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

I don't know where this is more appropriate than in worship.
Shouts of joy while singing and playing a new song with skill sounds pretty emotional to me. The Holy Spirit causes all kinds of emotions to pour out of us, many of which were exemplified by Jesus. I think this is what Euphemia is talking about.
Grant is, on the other hand I think, talking about emotions of the flesh, not caring what the words of the song are, just so it excites my senses. A true Christian should be able to appreciate a capella, piano accompaniment, guitars or anything the Spirit led the group of believers to use as the vehicle of praise.
Whether it is the Isaacs singing "I Have A Father Who Can" or "I Will Praise Him" a capella, or Mercy Me singing "I Can Only Imagine" with the full orchestra, drums and guitars, the Spirit connects and fills my spirit with adoration of God and jumpstarts my desire to know more and more about the Lord.

 

[Euphemia]

Psalm 33:
1 Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous!
For praise from the upright is beautiful.
2 Praise the Lord with the harp;
Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

I don't know where this is more appropriate than in worship.
Shouts of joy while singing and playing a new song with skill sounds pretty emotional to me. The Holy Spirit causes all kinds of emotions to pour out of us, many of which were exemplified by Jesus. I think this is what Euphemia is talking about.
Grant is, on the other hand I think, talking about emotions of the flesh, not caring what the words of the song are, just so it excites my senses. A true Christian should be able to appreciate a capella, piano accompaniment, guitars or anything the Spirit led the group of believers to use as the vehicle of praise.
Whether it is the Isaacs singing "I Have A Father Who Can" or "I Will Praise Him" a capella, or Mercy Me singing "I Can Only Imagine" with the full orchestra, drums and guitars, the Spirit connects and fills my spirit with adoration of God and jumpstarts my desire to know more and more about the Lord.

Hallelujah!

 

[Grant Melville]

You say this:

...which is absolutely true. So, why do you think that the people of God fully worshiping the Lord in song, dance, musical instruments and shouts of joy is of the flesh?

As we are free people in Christ, we are free to shout in exultation and triumph, laugh and leap for joy and weep with gratefulness!

In short, the answer is this: that the scripture doesn't envisage any of those things in the assembly, and instead it sets out a picture of the peace, order and the edifying exercise of spiritual gifts. It's absolutely possible to be in liberated exultation before God, lost in the joy of full worship, while maintaining order and peace, being built up and building others up.

 

[Grant Melville]

Psalm 33
1 Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous!
For praise from the upright is beautiful.
2 Praise the Lord with the harp;
Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

I don't know where this is more appropriate than in worship.
Shouts of joy while singing and playing a new song with skill sounds pretty emotional to me. The Holy Spirit causes all kinds of emotions to pour out of us, many of which were exemplified by Jesus. I think this is what Euphemia is talking about.
Grant is, on the other hand I think, talking about emotions of the flesh, not caring what the words of the song are, just so it excites my senses. A true Christian should be able to appreciate a capella, piano accompaniment, guitars or anything the Spirit led the group of believers to use as the vehicle of praise.
Whether it is the Isaacs singing "I Have A Father Who Can" or "I Will Praise Him" a capella, or Mercy Me singing "I Can Only Imagine" with the full orchestra, drums and guitars, the Spirit connects and fills my spirit with adoration of God and jumpstarts my desire to know more and more about the Lord.

Yes, the use of instruments and the involvement of natural emotion is very compelling. It's normal in Christendom - and that's because of a failure of what's priestly and a decline in what's spiritual. In many places, emotions and the things that appeal to them replace actual activity of the Holy Spirit so consistently that some believers will rarely have experienced the latter, and believe the former is the reality and height of worship. It isn't: it's a poor substitute for the experience of the believer in assembly conditions where the Spirit is free and uninhibited by innovations or outbursts of mere human emotion.

I didn't want to go into Leviticus 10, but perhaps it would be helpful. In this chapter, we see the failure of what's priestly. God had instituted the priesthood of Aaron and His sons, and had set on all the sacrifices and the due order of the tabernacle. Then, in the beginning of chapter 10, we have Aaron's two elder sons, Nadab and Abihu, presenting "strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them." (Leviticus 10:1). The result was that they were devoured by fire from Jehovah. This is essentially the failure of priesthood in Christendom, the bringing in of things from outside, the mind of man, innovation - not what God has commanded. Musical instruments most definitely fall into this category - they were a late innovation in Christendom, something not sanctioned by the scripture and not brought into Christian worship for the first 600 years of the Church's history.

Nadab and Abihu's names give us a clue as to why this foreign element was introduced. Nadab means "Liberal". Abihu is "He is my father". The 'liberal' thinking in Christendom teaches that anything that isn't strictly forbidden is permissible in the service of God, anything can be brought into the assembly that might please or entertain the brethren, or help to attract unbelievers in so that they can hear the gospel. This thinking got into the Church very early - Nadab is the first-born. If you challenge it, you'll be called hard, legal and narrow - you'll be accused of limiting the saints and putting them in bondage. Then we have Abihu - his responsibility is perhaps less, being the younger of the two. He represents those believers who know their position as sons of the Father, and are ready to take up the privileges of that position, but know nothing of what is due to the presence of the Father. It is privilege without a sense of responsibility, or any seeking of God's mind about His service. The Abihus amongst us are easily led by the Nadabs.

So, the two elder brothers died - failure came in. The two younger of Aaron's sons were distraught at this, and Moses has to intervene: "Your heads shall ye not uncover, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come on all the assembly..." (Leviticus 10:6). When we look around at conditions in Christendom and see everywhere strange fire being presented and spiritual death resulting, there's a temptation to just give up, to say, "Oh well, the whole thing's ruined and hopeless". This would be the equivalent of taking off the high caps and rending the priestly clothes, abandoning the service of God. We mustn't do that. It's not that we just go on and ignore the error that's come in, which is why Moses goes on to say, ".. but your brethren, the whole house of Israel, shall bewail the burning which Jehovah hath kindled" (Leviticus 10:6). There's to be a wailing, a mourning over the state of Christendom, and failure of what's priestly, but what's priestly continues. If it was totally given up, wrath would come on all the assembly - if there's was nothing left for God, He would give it up completely. Thanks be to Him, that's not the case. What's priestly continues in Aaron's two younger sons, Eleazar and Ithamar.

Eleazar means "God is my help" and Ithamar, "Island of palm trees". Acknowledging our failure wholeheartedly, getting before God about it and throwing ourselves in complete dependence on Him results in victory, represented by the palm-tree. It is an island, speaking of the remnant character of the faithful in Christendom, but God has pleasure in it. A remnant in divine things isn't a scrap or an off-cut, a lesser thought. Not at all: it's a piece of the original.

Before there's a continuation of the priestly service, Jehovah brings in a warning for Aaron: "Thou shalt not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, and thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tent of meeting, lest ye die - it is an everlasting statute throughout your generations, that ye may put difference between the holy and the unholy, and between unclean and clean..." (Leviticus 10:9-11). Here, we have the root cause of Nadab and Abihu's failure of judgement - their judgement was clouded when they took up their censers. What appeals to the natural emotions, and ultimately the flesh, when introduced into the assembly, has an intoxicating effect. Music, light shows, dancing, theatrics, oratory and eloquence - all these things sweep up the believer in a wave of emotion. The result is a failure to put a difference between holy and unholy, between clean and unclean. Strange fire is brought in. We have to be sure we never allow strange fire into the assembly, and we also have to judge whatever caused it to be brought in in the first place. This shows us, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that we can't rest complacently on the fact that we are priests, or that we have the high caps and the priestly garments (in type). We can still fail in priestly spirit, and we have to seek the mind of God in order to be intelligent as to His service. We are responsible before God to distinguish between holy and unholy, clean and unclean.

In the chapter, the priestly service is restored, but very quickly other problems come in. "And Moses diligently sought the goat of the sin-offering, and behold, it was burnt up; then he was wroth with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron that were left, saying, Why have ye not eaten the sin-offering in a holy place? for it is most holy, and he has given it to you that ye might bear the iniquity of the assembly, to make atonement for them before Jehovah." (Leviticus 10:16-17). We may have come to a judgement of all that is unsuitable to the assembly, and taken up our true place as a remnant before God, but there are still dangers. Eleazar and Ithamar didn't eat the sin-offering as they should've done, they didn't feed on Christ as the offering for sins. There's a danger of a legal and hard spirit coming out once a judgement has been reached of these things, and an over-zealous way of dealing with things that leads to the sin-offering being burnt up but no feeding on Christ taking place. I have to personally identify myself with the sin-offering, and eat it, if I'm to get the good of it. I have own the sin as mine, "bear the iniquity of the assembly", even if it belongs to the whole assembly, or to another brother or sister. That would keep me humble, and give me right feelings about sin, and what it cost that sin should be dealt with and removed. Come from that place, having fed on the sin offering, I'm in a state where I can act in a priestly way.

So, in Leviticus 10, we get the failure of what's priestly - which has already occured in Christendom - the recovery of a remnant, the falling of that remnant into a over-zealous legal attitude, and then, in Aaron's confession in verse 19-20, the acknowledge and personal identification with that failure too, "And Moses heard it: and it was good in his sight." (Leviticus 10:20). We needn't be in a spirit of fear or bondage. We have responsibility concerning the service of God, but the Holy Spirit supports us in that, and we have the Lord Jesus as our great High Priest - essentially, there's no need for failure. If failure does come in though, there's always a way back, and we'll be restored, wiser and more intelligent as to God's great ways and counsels than we were before.

 

[Grant Melville]

I've just come from our local gathering for prophetic ministry, where I was moved to give a brief word, in which the peace-offering was touched on, and how it was waved before Jehovah as a wave-offering.

A brother I was speaking to after the meeting, shared his impression of the heave-offering and the wave-offering. Literally, the heave-offering would speak of energetic movement, and the wave-offering of a slower, more peaceful movement. It struck me, at that moment, that I know both of these things in my own experience. I'm not saying that in a boastful way - it's all entirely the work of God. The wave-offering... that's the basking in the sunshine of divine love, marvelling and wondering over the preciousness of an impression of Christ, considering it in all its detail. When I get up on my feet in the assembly to address God in prayer, when it's worship in the character of the wave-offering, the impression that the Holy Spirit has put in my heart wells up and flows out in a gentle, peaceful way (I would say 'leisurely', but that isn't quite right, there's still intense activity), with such exquisite joy. If it's the heave-offering, then there is such commanding energy. I must get up, I can't sit idle while I have the impression in my heart. It bursts out, exuberant joy. It is wholly the blessed Spirit, presenting features of Christ - the peaceful and the energetic. Ah, praise be to God! It's the only thing I experience in this poor world which is perfect, that which is wholly of God.

 

[Euphemia]

In short, the answer is this: that the scripture doesn't envisage any of those things in the assembly, and instead it sets out a picture of the peace, order and the edifying exercise of spiritual gifts. It's absolutely possible to be in liberated exultation before God, lost in the joy of full worship, while maintaining order and peace, being built up and building others up.

Ahh, but the spiritual gifts are all in play when we sing, dance and shout and play music to the praise of the Father. Order and peace doesn't mean quiet.

 

[Euphemia]

Yes, the use of instruments and the involvement of natural emotion is very compelling. It's normal in Christendom - and that's because of a failure of what's priestly and a decline in what's spiritual.

There is no failure in it.

 

[Grant Melville]

Ahh, but the spiritual gifts are all in play when we sing, dance and shout and play music to the praise of the Father. Order and peace doesn't mean quiet.

When we sing, yes... but what spiritual gift is being used in dancing, or shouting, or playing a musical instrument?