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William Lane Craig Is Better Off Citing Matt 13:10-15

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Jeremiah7:29, Nov 16, 2013.

  1. #1 Jeremiah7:29, Nov 16, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
    Matthew 13:10-15
    13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Aug 5, 2011)
    13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Isaiah 6 9:10
    6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    My good friend & fellow band mate who I was collaborating with on a CCM Album, has recently become a New Atheist. I told him I'm only working on CCM music which inspired him to create an all out effort to de-convert me. I got bombarded with very compelling arguments against the Bible.

    I did as he requested and carefully read and considered all of these very reasonable arguments against the Bible. I then acknowledge to him that yes, The Old Testament is filled with Genocidal commandments from God, backwards stories of Rape, Incest, Polygamy along with Commandments from God that not only Justify Slavery, but outline the procedures for procuring slaves and permission to obtain sex slaves as booty from battle etc. etc. the list is endless.

    The New Testament also contains contradicting Gospels accounts of the resurrection, differences between Paul and Jesus opinion on salvation, lack of historical evidence of Jesus. Jesus says if you don't believe in Moses you can't believe in me which basically says if you don't believe in the inerrancy of the Old Testament you can't believe in Jesus.

    The list of Atheist truths goes on and on to the point Christian apologists can only accuse the opposing side of using "circular reasoning" and everybody else scratches their heads in confusion with guys like William Lane Craig & Ray Comfort trying to sound as intellectual as the guys from Oxford.

    We just get crushed and embarrassed every time Apologists fall into this trap. When you try to justify scriptures you will be defeated. I learned this from trying to win back my friend. There was no winning any argument and I only served to further strengthen his unbelief as the conversation went on.

    Instead of continuing to study and present to him the confusing apologetics argument, I just referred to Matthew 13:10-15 and reminded him that the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God, that we are to be fools for Christ's Sake. That Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and substance of things not seen. And that Jesus deliberately set this whole world up to be confusing.

    When I told him this He called it a cop out because I refused to defend the allegations that the Bible was filled atrocities, inaccuracies and possible forgeries written by man. But I told him this is the trick of the enemy. God let man manipulate the Bible over the years, and be used it to justify slavery, witch hunting, a tool to control and exploit the poor all as a means to confuse the wise because Jesus wants us to come to him as little children. The Holy Spirit supersedes the Bible because that is the ultimate sin, Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, not blasphemy against the Bible. How is it that the persecuted Native Americans and African Americans are predominantly Christian. Because the Holy Spirit came to them through revelation despite the spiritual wickedness in high places in the church.

    We can see the same struggle today with our modern antagonist political figures using social issues to divide & conquer for ulterior motives like wolves in sheep's clothing. Jesus said He that offends one of these little ones that believes in me, it would be better if a millstone were tied around there neck and they would be thrown into the sea.

    This is the trick of the enemy that is using todays GOP to repel droves of Christians and our youth from accepting Christ. The Body of Christ largely supports the GOP. Broad and wide are the gates of hell but straight and narrow is the path of heaven.

    The literalists interpretation of the Bible is not just a parable to keep unbelievers out. It's also a litmus test for Christ to assess the heart of the Believer. Jesus put these horrific scriptures in the Bible to see if you would subscribe and condone them as did William Lane Craig when he tried to justify the genocide of the Old Testament.

    Jesus never intended for us to have a literal interpretation of the Bible. This is also what he meant with Matthew 13:10-15. Jesus made it crystal clear when he said love thy God with all thy strength and mind and love thy brother as you love your self.

    I ended my Argument with my New Atheist friend with Matthew 25:31-46
    25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (Aug 5, 2011)
    25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Aug 5, 2011)

    I told him Jesus has been in the process of separating the Goats from the Sheep. The Goats are those that can only see the world through a strict Biblical world view. Jesus said God is a spirit and those that worship him worship him in spirit and truth. Christianity survived & thrived for well over a thousand years without the majority of the followers owning, being able to read or even understanding the latin language that the priests preached to the congregation. This in itself is a testament to the miraculous power of the holy spirit

    I told my New Atheist friend that Jesus is only concerned with our heart and Faith in Christ is a Heart Issue, not a Biblical Issue. I also told him that we need to start putting away our reverence for the Bible and that I accepted his arguments as completely true. This is when he called me an Apostate with great Joy and said I should just let go of my heretical beliefs and accept a life without Christ and just believe in nothing.

    I can't do this because I know the power of the Holy Spirit first hand as I allow myself to be used by Christ through my music. He who tastes the light of the holy spirit and turns away from belief can also commit the unforgivable sin. After carefully considering the opposing sides argument, I'm willing to admit that I also hold irreconcilable differences with the Bible, however that doesn't mean that the Gospel isn't true and that Christ didn't rise from the Grave. It only means that I have focused my priorities on the love of Christ rather than the dogma of man. We will continue to repel and offend as we struggle to hold a biblical world view in our modern world. The Jesus movement is a call for charity and love, not a cry for condemnation. It's about time the Body of Christ stops kicking against the pricks. I know this argument is contrary to popular opinion and also in contrast to the beliefs of my Church and Pastor, but the meditations of my heart have compelled me to adopt this belief.
  2. Please receive this in a spirit of love, for it is not my place here to rebuke, for I am highly unqualified in this great place to chasten, yet may offer a notion to ponder only.

    Once a soccer game was in play supported by a large crowd rooting for the home team, yet the officials were calling an array of bad calls against this home team. The crowd would boo in unison and before long a few people in anger would stand up in the crowd and yell out harsh remarks. Once a few did this then many more did this until enough courage was amassed in the crowd unto anger to rush the fence and bring violence to the field disrupting the game.

    Shall we look at the most successful infomercial marketing strategy and see that three are needed no matter what can be sold in the confines of the free market, in politics or scripture? Shall there be one bi-partisan advocate of the people who is objective but open minded. Shall there be a second one who is a protagonist equipped with higher knowledge, and a third one who is an antagonist who poorly attacks with inferior knowledge. Shall all three debate or discuss ethics or performance regarding any sold thing. Shall the consumer then most oft ingest not the protagonist, nor the antagonist, but instead the open minded and objective advocate who then will “side in surprise with the protagonist”, who just became enlightened as if a new windfall of knowledge just landed in his lap, which of course is also shared freely to all that will trust.

    Is it possible that by accident your article profoundly with precision uses the strategies of marketing, to remove confidence from scripture? Yet also let it be clear that I do not accuse intention my friend lest I am wrong. For if I accuse such a thing and am wrong then I have done my brethren wrong. Shall you know in your heart that my motives are pure and that I only advocate for the integrity of the scripture and stand antagonistic to organized thought that advocates it has no foundation, when foundation is in contrast amazingly secure. For is it possible that the twists of transliteration and hermeneutics can be bent to say anything, and can they be measured out in strategy to disqualify scripture at a mention or a whim? For can mentions absent of axiomatic foundation carry any merit? Would you not agree?

    For I would cautiously suggest, that if it is happenstance then you have inadvertently engaged the strategic mechanics of persuasion unto scriptural harm, then I must implore that a new strategy be used if deliberation is not your intention. If it is comprised from a humble spirit, who only would advocate something good in Christ, and then also by accident compelled people to lose confidence in scripture, then it has indeed fallen to the grounds of serendipity quite marvelously, for it is indeed highly strategic whether by design or happenstance to harm scripture when no foundation exists to harm it.

    Shall the love of Christ permeate
  3. Thank you for you for giving me this thoughtful argument. My intention wasn't to undermine the merits of scripture. As Christians we are being forced to defend the indefensible, that's why I believe we have to quit defending strict biblical interpretations.

    I'm not going to defend the stories in the book of Genesis as historical truths because I would have to sacrifice my intellect to do so. My question to every one here is how do we stay relevant when the internet has brought the overwhelming argument against the Bible front & center.

    The History Channel is currently airing the series "Hidden Secrets of the Bible." Last week's episode was titled "Lost in Translation" & spent an hour dismantling the viewers confidence in scripture.
    The Pope just came out telling parishioners not to get too curious regarding these biblical questions.

    I just think they're a stumbling block to seekers & beleivers who want clear answers. My belief is that we should take all the ambiguities out of the argument & keep it centered around Jesus. If we magnify his good works & remain open to the fact that it's possible scriptures were manipulated by men after Jesus death, we could maybe stay relevant in our changing times.

    When politicians make Biblical claims about God's covenant with Israel and use it to justify the United States unconditional allegiance to Isreal, It also illustrates their secret hopes of antagonizing a great war to usher in the apocalypse. That makes me very concerned.

    I think there was a good reason the early church focused on works over faith. James, the brother of Jesus cited this as the way to truly obtain salvation. I just don't think it's blasphemy to cherry pick the good stuff & disregard the bad, as did Thomas Jefferson.

    I just think in the long run, doubling down on scriptural integrity over the love of Christ will bring about a mass exodus from the faith as more & more get exposed to the scriptures not preached on Sunday.

    When I first learned of all of these problematic scriptures, it was like I was on Cheaters, having Joey Greco show me footage of my soul mates secret double life. When these scriptures are presented to me, I can only throw up my hands and agree with the critic.

    But I don't believe that means I have to give up my Faith in Jesus. I can acknowledge that the Bible is not a historical account but a spiritual account. So the supernatural claims exist in our heart, that dimension of the spirit that encompasses our dreams & desires.

    It is my lone & sole opinion that Matthew 13:10-15 is Jesus divine insight on avoiding strict scriptural interpretations. I personally want to believe the core story of Jesus is love, and as Jesus says, that is the only commandment we need to concern ourselves with. I believe this is the Gospel Jesus wanted his followers to spread to the world.

    But I only came to this conclusion as a result of failed apologetics. The William Lane Craig argument just sounds like a lawyer throwing out confusing terms that sound lofty but when investigated further lack any substance, leaving seekers & struggling beleivers even more confused.

    I'm very aware that I'm an anomaly & don't represent the belief of my church or the body of Christ as a whole. That's why I'm here hoping to come to a proper consensus on strategies to defend our Faith.
  4. #4 dUmPsTeR, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
    I take the scriptures to mean what they say. I don't feel they need any interpretation. I think when man gets into interpreting the scriptures, that's when error can enter in.

    I myself call the old and new testament, the first and second testament because the old and new terms were labeled by man and can be misleading.

    In the first testament there is instruction to the Israelites that if anyone wanted cleave to them, that the Israelites should allow it, provided they adopted their ways, the ways God had instructed them to follow.

    Slaves- slaves often were people that didn't have a means to survive. A lot of them were like adopted family. They were given a chance to be free after a number of years, but a lot of them choose not to because it would be like leaving their family.

    The sacrificial system- One reason God implemented this system was to show that man couldn't be with out sinning. And the blood for atonement.

    Contradictory scripture- I've not found any. One thing I keep in mind about context is who is being addressed. Example: a lot of scripture is addressing specifically chosen Saints, and is not for being directed to just anyone.

    Falling away- I myself have been guilty of loosing my Way. Partly due because I was selfish and I didn't have much understanding. Now that I graciously been given understanding, I have clung to my faith and God for a great time.

    Also, in falling away God has not given up on me, He has always brought me back. Which reminds me of the scripture that goes something like this-(paraphrased) no one can come to the Father, unless the Father draws him.

    God is very selective. This, I've found to be evident all through the scriptures. Like how God choose Moses, the prophets, etc. Most of them baulked and God even was upset with them. Another example: look how Jesus selected the apostles.

    Television- I rarely watch it. I believe it to be a distraction from what I/we should be focused on, God, and His ways. Ever hear the term, 'network programming'? That is more true, than most realize. Like I mentioned in the 'technology' thread, satan is the prince of the power of the air scripture rings loudly to me on the subject of television, radio, and the likes.

    The discovery channel, wow, that's all I'm going to say about that.

    I hope this helps, and with all things I post, test them, test them diligently with your spirit, mind, and the scriptures.

    A major part of Jesus's gospel was the Coming Kingdom. A look through scripture and one will find He said it multiple times.

    There is a scripture in Revelation, 12:9, that mentions-(paraphrased)- ALL the world(or nations) is deceived. Think about that for a moment. (emphasis added to ALL)

    Also, God may be allowing your friend to fall away for a purpose or many purposes. Please read that line again.

    I do hope I don't come off sounding cocky, or condescending, that isn't my intention.

    May a peace and understanding that can only come from The Almighty Creator, The One True God, YHWH, envelope, and wash over those that read this message. Amen.

    Edit: All and emphasis added.
    Scott Yannitell likes this.
  5. Not many Christians are aware that the God of the New Testament is exactly the God of the Old Testament.

    And instead of talking particulars, let me wrap that up for you: God destroyed not a few people, and not a few peoples, but the entire mankind (with the exception of exactly 8 people).

    Did those things come from God?

    As for incest, how exactly would you expect for the children of Adam and Eve to have their own children?

    And make sure you understand that Adam married his rib. Does this help?


    Feel free to share - or rather check explanations for them online, because I really don’t have the time to explain all the things for every Christian in the world - or in this forum.

    See above.

    Now at this point I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry. Because there is more evidence for the Bible, including Jesus, then for all other ancient history events taken together (already addressed in another thread).

    Ironically, throughout the last few centuries, the most skeptical researchers (anti-Christian) made the most thorough research (including archaeology) - and guess what their verdict was? So it’s not that we Christians are the ignorant ones. On the contrary, it’s the atheists that are the ignorants.

    And I refer to researchers such as William Ramsay. You can read his work here:

    or here:
    (click on “PDF” link)

    If you find a 400 page book too large, here’s some hasty (far from comprehensive) talk about it:

    I agree. Tell this to other Christians as well, for example those who distance themselves from Genesis.

    You must mean the “atheist lies”.

    Otherwise, why exactly would you believe the atheists instead of God?

    Not me. And not any Christian who really took the time to look into both the Bible and science.

    Tell this too to those that distance themselves from Genesis, for example.

    No. We are to be fools in the eyes of the world. And since the world is actually the fool, therefore we are actually the wise.

    Well, I don’t know about you, but I have a very strong faith because of science, not despite science.

    Oh really? What kind of Jesus do you believe in?

    And what does the Bible say instead? For example, to whom says the Bible this world belongs to?

    No. Already addressed in so many threads that I’m already tired talking about it. Do you people really not read this forum?

    Tell that to all the teachers in the world that teach evolution as a means to put distance between the students and the Bible. Indeed, woe to them!

    If I were you I would be extremely cautious what I’d say about God, or His Son.

    And the sheep would be… who?

    No. It was, instead, a “testament” of the power of the Catholic Church. Whether the power of the Catholic Church coincides with the power of the Holy Spirit is debatable. Even Catholics would admit mistakes made by their Church (let alone individuals within their Church).

    Curious: if it’s your music, how do you allow yourself “to be used by Christ” through that?

    Then what exactly does it mean?

    Oh really? Then why exactly would you believe in such a God? One that makes you run against logic? Let me ask you this: could it be, just could it be, that instead of God, it’s your logic that’s at fault?
  6. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
  7. Seems to me this “paradox” of “one accord”
    · One is saying “a child-like faith” is not enough: we need apologetics.
    · One is saying “apologetics approached” is a failure: we need faith building, emphasis on love
    · One is saying, the Ecclesiastes “all is vanity and grasping for the wind”….

    What do we do now? : )

    I think this is the conclusion of Paul and the Ecclesiastes:

    Romans 8:28
    And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
    dUmPsTeR likes this.
  8. Wow! Just wow, I really, really can appreciate this, and your insight. Thank you, and ultimately thanks to God Almighty, Glory, glory be to God.

    I especially like your choice of scripture.
  9. Thanks, although I will be more watchful what I say next : )

    One example is Peter: in one moment he says the truth, and in a few verses moment: he says “things of men” : )

    Mark 8:29-33
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    29 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
    Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.”
    30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.

    Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection

    31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
  10. #10 Jeremiah7:29, Nov 18, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
    Debating evolution is not an option. We see first hand bacteria evolving & developing resistance to certain anti-biotics etc. etc. Denying evolution is like denying climate change.

    I'm not an Atheist, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ, that he rose from the grave & carried out miracles. I think I might have triggered anti-atheist sentiments with some of my remarks. My apologies for raising anyones blood pressure.

    Thank you (even if it did seem a bit heated) for your lengthy & thoughtful responses. I believe I must be misrepresenting my argument.

    One more thing I absolutely must clarify. The 300 year holocaust of the trans-atlantic slave trade was justified through christians biblical worldview instead of a Christ Centered worldview. Before you get upset with me, please let me explain. The curse of Ham, was used to identify anyone of color as inferior & the Bible clearly cites Yahweh ordering Genocide & Slavery. Slavery is indefensible. Genocide is indefensible. Racism is indefensible. Period. I'm ashamed of those scriptures & I'm asking apologists to stop defending them as well.

    I accidentally got into a debate about the validity of scriptures & I apologize for leading us in that direction. Trust me, I have thoroughly studied the William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel and even cringed with horror & disgust as I tried to make it through Ken Ham & Ray Comforts arguments. As apologists seek to defend the indefensible they only further their lack of credibility. This is the reason the rise of the "Nones" is growing at such an alarming rate.

    If the Christians during the trans-atlantic slave trade preached the love of Jesus instead of the justification of scripture, Slavery would have been universally condemned. But instead, biblical literalists justified not only christians profiting from the slave trade, but also opening up Churches in the centers of these Slave Dungeons. Worshiping God directly above the slaves cries of desperation. Without remorse because they found it sanctioned by God in the Bible.

    I visit Ghana several times a year & can tell you first hand the stench & misery of these slave dungeons. PLEASE don't tell me Biblical slavery was any more just. Slavery is indefensible & justification for it is reprehensible. Don't go there Christians.

    If you're tired & have a headache from defending the inerrancy of the Bible it's only because you are kicking against the pricks. Let's focus on the love of Jesus instead of defending the indefensible.
  11. #11 Jeremiah7:29, Nov 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
    I'm anticipating push back on this because the curse of Ham was a reinterpretation of scripture. But killing canaanites & midianites because they worshiped the wrong God is not only racism but ethnic cleansing. So I will use these scriptures to better explain my argument & also provide the apologetic response in question.

    Scriptures on Slavery

    1 Timothy 6:1-2

    Scriptures on Genocide


    Two examples of apologetic arguments defending these scriptures.

  12. Your first few sentences, reminds me: of the first few sentences of Genesis Chapter 3.

    Sorry if this will sound harsh…. just being honest on how i see it.

    Back in college: we are very specific: the example you mentioned are specifically: adaptation, mutation.
    Yes, it is evolution in broader scope: but on a specific scope: it is adaptation.

    Applying the characteristic of the specific to the broader scope is faulty generalization.

    Similar to every tree in the garden (broader scope)
    Compared to the tree in the midst of the garden….. (specific)

    Genesis 3
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Temptation and Fall of Man
    3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
    2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
  13. #13 Jeremiah7:29, Nov 18, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
    The Genesis story certainly offers believers and non-believers alike deep reflection on what it means to be a moral creature, but much of this opportunity for reflection is lost when the story is turned into a science text book. Not only that, both creation and creator become smaller. How limited is the God of creationists whose work they constrict from billions into mere thousand of years and whose overwhelming complexity and wonder they reduce to a mere 788,280 human words! With bitter irony creationists diminish the depth of the work God has supposedly made so that man can exalt himself to the center of the universe and become the primary character of the story of creation. In trying to diminish the scale and depth of the universe in space and time they are committing the sin of Milton’s Satan- that is pride.

    The Catholic Church embraces the Theory of Evolution for this Reason
  14. I think it should be noted that the Catholic Church doesn't hold to one specific opinion regarding Evolution. Some laity and clergy accept Evolution as a valid theory and some reject it.
  15. Am putting myself in your point of view, what I cannot reconcile, when i put myself in your point of view:

    You are a Christian.

    The Atheist does not believe in God.

    You seem to respect the opinion of Atheist?... am assuming… *kindly correct if am wrong…

    Now, your post seems to “not respect” the apologetics approach, and the creationist? (again correct me if am wrong…)

    As i said, putting myself in your point of view: the more outrageous belief is the Atheist!

    What is confusing me is that you can give the Atheist respect* and yet you seem not to give the same if not better respect to your own brothers?
  16. Jeremiah,

    Dude, I hear ya!

    People like Comfort, Ham, and Strobel put out such ridiculous apologetic arguments that are so easily refuted, outside their own circles the debate is over whether those guys are deliberately lying, or if they truly believe what they're saying. In my experiences, those guys and their cohorts do more damage to our cause than any atheist organization could ever dream of.

    I agree with you that being saved is a personal experience of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That, by its very nature, is a supernatural event, which means it's not subject to the sort of outside objective scrutiny your atheist friend wants. It's also a very personal event, which means it's not replicable either.

    The only point of contention I have is when you say, "Jesus deliberately set this whole world up to be confusing". That paints a picture of a God who intentionally tricks people and then condemns everyone who falls for the trick. And what human can be expected to figure out a trick devised by a God?!

    The "confusion" stems from ourselves and our pride. People go from having ideas and beliefs, to becoming them. When that happens, they close off their minds to everything else and elevate their beliefs and themselves to infallible status. That's when confusion sets in.

    Be patient with your friend. Appeal to his rationality and sense of open-mindedness. If the Bible isn't 100% infallible (and given its history, that's hardly surprising), that doesn't mean God isn't real. To argue otherwise is a non-sequitur.
  17. Why? Because you say so? And your teachers? Well, I don’t know about you, but I’m a free man. Regardless, are you even aware that by ignoring alternative explanations you already stepped outside science?

    Do you see bacteria turning into something that’s not bacteria?

    Wait… miracles? Yet again, miracles? You mean breaking the natural laws? Those laws taught in schools as truth? How about that…

    So, who is the truth after all? Is it Darwin? Is it Newton? Or is it Jesus?

    So you actually think that you have a higher morality than God, your Creator?

    Sorry, but if you’re ashamed of God, then God will be ashamed of you.

    I think you’ll be much safer by studying the Bible, instead of people’s opinions about the Bible - even if they’re Christians.

    If you truly think that God is “indefensible”, then you have it all wrong.

    And if you think you’re morally superior to God, then you also have it wrong.

    How wonderful is the God of Creationists, who spoke the universe, or at least parts of it, into existence! How wonderful is the God of Creationists who did it all in 6 literal days!

    How awful is the god of evolution, who didn’t know what he wanted (hence the trial & error), who couldn’t do what he wanted (hence the billions of years) and whose rule of doing things is suffering and death!
    KingJ likes this.
  18. #18 Jeremiah7:29, Nov 19, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    Thank you for sharing this, My understanding of the catholic church is that the Pope sets the precedent for the church and I believe it has been established by Pope Benedict that evolution is not contrary to a Christian's belief in Christ. Correct me if I'm wrong?

    Again, I must emphasize that there is nothing unchristian about accepting science as truth.

    This is the Anti-Science sentiment that's causing so many to leave the Church. When everybody knows 2+2=4 and you're telling them 2+2=5, seekers & believer begin to leave citing irreconcilable differences with the faith.

    No, But I do know that I have a higher morality than the writers of the scriptures condoning & sanctioning slavery & genocide etc. etc. These writers were obviously not divinely inspired by God or Revelation. The Bible is a human document that was manipulated overtime by "the powers that be", but the naked truth of the Gospel still ring true despite mans attempt to adulterate it.

    I prefer your Apologetic response to mine and would like to thank you for your insight. This was the purpose of starting this thread. To get help with the tough questions that weren't getting answered by today's leading Christian Apologists.

    Yes everyone I am a Christian. I'm actually a member of a very charismatic non-denominational church and play guitar for their music ministry every Wednesday and Sunday. Because I play guitar and I'm up on the stage the whole time, I've always felt like an outsider looking in. If my Pastor knew I held these beliefs, I would be asked to leave the ministry due to their belief in transference of spirits.

    My current church Family shares all the conservative beliefs that everyone who disagreed with me in this forum hold. I love them all and their prayers have delivered me through some very difficult times. So I know your criticisms come from the love of Christ as do my own.

    Everyone here has really helped me undergo a paradigm shift in my Faith and I'm realizing now that I have to come to my Pastor and tell him I no longer share the same beliefs of the Bible that my church holds. I'm going to schedule an appointment with a priest to see if my beliefs in Christ & the Bible are more compatible with the Catholic Church. I'm very inspired by Pope Francis and believe the Holy Spirit is moving through him in a miraculous way, along with others like Desmond Tutu and social justice evangelicals like Jim Wallis from http://sojo.net/jim-wallis.

    Please continue your thoughts and insights if you feel you can better assist me in my interpretation of scripture, understanding Jesus or finding a new church home.
  19. I believe Pope Pius XII declared that it wasn't contrary to Christian doctrine.
  20. Sorry to hear man.

    Do a proper study on OT slavery amongst the Jews. You will find that it was only to better their lives. Mostly victims of war. Slaves could escape and nobody was to report them if they found them. If slaves were physically abused the owners had to let them go. It was a lot like the helpers we have in our house today. Slavery OT and slavery today is not the same word.

    Genocidal commands need to be looked at closer. God never gave instruction without a valid reason and after numerous attempts by Him / opportunities to us to avoid the calamity. I have discussed most of them before. Is there a specific one you want to discuss?

    It is rather frustrating discussing with an atheist. I expect the same responses from the devil. Looking at half the story and then concluding is what the devil does.

    There are no contradictions. Just lack of understanding / full picture. The bible is inerrant. Have you ever done a proper study on this?

    I have had numerous discussions with close atheist / ex-Christian friends. I have won every discussion. But they will never acknowledge that.

    I use to entertain a lot of discussion with atheists, but the circular logic and banana peels they stand on just got too much. I conclude their position / end ALL debate with these four verses:

    Psalms 14:1 For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

    Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

    Matt 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

    1. We are in a realm limited by the laws of physics where 1 + 1 does not and never can eqaul 2. The ONLY option is that there is a Creator from another realm not limited by the laws of physics. Rom 1:20 and Psalms 14:1 say it best. Believing in a Creator / intelligent should be as simple as looking at our thumb. Simple applied common sense.

    2. Pay close attention to 1 Cor 12:3 and Matt 16:16-17. It clearly says that nobody can know or call Jesus ''Lord'' except by the Holy Spirit. Now what happens when we get saved? don't we get on our knees and call Jesus Lord? NO person who has touched Jesus / received a revelation of Him by the Holy Spirit can ever truly be an atheist. They are living in self denial / rebellion. Likewise nobody who has not had an encounter with Jesus / touched Him can call themselves a Christian. Most know Jesus as a good person, only Christians know Jesus as Lord.

    Conclusion: Your friend is either a liar or was was never a Christian.

    I would start any future discussion with him on the very definition of 'Christian'.

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