Two Types of Sin?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by dan in the lion's den, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. I know many like to lump all sin together and make them all as of one type. I also know that Christ died for ALL sins past, present and future. Christ's atonement or all sin is more than sufficient.
    BUT. As I was studying the Old Testament referrals to sin and the requirements needed to get things back to "square". I started realizing there were basically 2 ways to make things right. The reason there were 2 ways was because there were basically 2 types of sin, those man committed against God and those he committed against his fellow man.
    Rather than go through all the numrous laws, how about we go to where they originated, or at least where they can be easily summed up.....the 10 commandments. Again the 10 commandments can be divided into 2 basic categories, those concerning man's behavior towards God and those concerning man's behavior toward his neighbor.
    But really, if we want to slip over to the New Testament for, lets say, greater authority or legitimacy or whatever argument one might want to use to "debunk" the 2 types argument, we can see that Christ condensed sin even further into 2 very basic categories. Sin against God and sin against our neighbor.
    Why, you might ask, does this matter? Because, if you look at what the laws say about sins committed against others, it always inluded atonement by the aggressor to their victim. I feel that this atonement aspect still applies today when it comes to seeking forgiveness from others. I believe even civil law incorporates this atonement by the likes of restitution or what have you. American Law is loosely based on biblical principles.
    OK. So where am I headed with this? I believe churches should be emphasizing the importance of atoning to others when we have sinned against them. All too often christians wrong others then just let their victim be burdened with unforgiveness. Placing all the burden on the victim to forgive is wrong in my humble opinion. Only if and when the perpetrator confesses, repents AND ATONES should the victim then have the ball in their court.
    Before I end my little soapbox blathering, I do understand that to expect such a process of confession, repentence atonemet behavior from non-christians or fake christians is asking way too much. But to those of having actually accepted Christ, I feel what I just said should come naturally...errrrrr or spiritally.
    Spelling Disclaimer: I never learned to type so I use a little program called misses a few clicks here and there. Tried my best to proof-read
    KingJ likes this.
  2. It's funny, i never realized that pastors don't teach that if you wrong someone you should at least apologize. Very interesting though. And a very good observation of the fact that there are sins against God and sins against our fellow man.
    Blessings of peace and joy be yours in abundance!
  3. Well if any Pastor does not teach their flock about Love and Forgivness then those who are under their teaching are not being fed with meat.
    Love and Forgivness must be a part of Faith or Faith will be limited and not productive.

    Funny how this is missed Love and Forgivness are BOTH a COMMAND from God.
    For example....Mark 11:25 KJV
    ... And when ye stand praying, FORGIVE if ye have aught against any; that your father which is in Heaven may forgive you your tresspasses.

    With htis said it is quite clear that repentence and forgiving is A MUST right then and there.
    It is not a, if you can or if the offence was not to big. NOPE it is RIGHT NOW.
    There are many scriptures teaching to go to the brother and seek forgivness.
    Cturtle likes this.
  4. This is one of those topics I enjoy discussing with other Christians, though it's usually based on disagreement.

    Not going to make any claims since I know many of us do have a difference of belief when it comes to sin itself. I hold the belief that there is original sin and personal sin; original sin being our inheritance of Adam and Eve's sin in the garden. Personal sin being what we ourselves do. A fetus in the womb is a person with a soul, and that soul is tainted with sin just because of his being part of mankind, but that fetus has not yet committed personal sin.

    Another thing that is often brought up when discussing this is baptism since many Christians hold the belief that baptism is a sacrament that really does cleanse the soul from original sin and is washed clean. Many other Christians believe that baptism is a symbol that one's soul has already been washed clean.

    But even when going into personal sin, another divide that is often brought up is the divide of venial and mortal sins. A venial sin may be something like forgetting to pray daily, entertaining lustful thoughts, or if the moral law is being broken but unknowingly. Mortal sins would be breaking the moral law and knowing that it is wrong but doing it anyway. Murder, pornography, promoting abortion, etc.

    Direct sins against man is still a sin against Christ (1 Corinthians 8:12). If Joe Schmoe steals his neighbor's car (for which God has no direct use), he is still offending God because he's hurting a fellow human being and not doing God's will. However, if Joe Schmoe decides he's going to worship an idol, he isn't causing offense to anyone, but he is offending God by doing this. In the first scenario, he must make right with God, and part of that is to also make right with his neighbor. In the second scenario, he must make right with God rejecting worship of anything other than God, even though reparations toward someone else isn't needed.

    I was having a talk with a fellow Catholic the other day (Catholic in name, not in belief), and she said "Well, sin is really just when you hurt someone else somehow. I try not to hurt other people, so..." I asked her if I were to worship something other than God, would I be sinning or not. She thought for a moment and gave a fairly unclear, post-modern response; "God still loves us and he knows who he is."

    The subject of sin itself -- even without talking about specific sins -- can lead to so much back-and-forth and disagreement as there are so many beliefs surrounding it; Is personal and original sin a myth (meaning they are both the same)? Is a gossiper just as evil as a rapist? Does it not matter what we do in life as long as we've accepted Christ into our hearts? If Christ died for our sins, do we not need to make reparations for our sins? These will often come up in the discussion.

    Anyway -- I'm not making a claim (though I do hold a very specific belief in regards to sin and salvation from it).
    KingJ likes this.
  5. Modern folks don't tend to be very fond of the idea of sin. Being aware of personal sin causes shame, and feeling shame is not fun.
    Anything that makes one uncomfortable or make one think must be avoided at all costs.

    Any and all sin can lead to damnation. True repentance is required for forgiveness.
  6. ..
    This is basic. If you have done wrong, and the other person lets you know it, just admit it, say you were wrong, you offended and hurt the other person, ask to be forgiven.

    I think now the teaching seems to be, if you get offended, you are the one thats in the wrong and should just never be offended and grow a thicker skin. Or get a life, or whatever. Let the offender get off scot free. Never confront them. So they can continue being obnoxious.

    The holy spirit gets these instances. You can say all you like against Jesus but if you deliberately blaspheme the holy spirit God is not going to forgive that, in this life or the next.

    God can and will forgive anybody who repents with a contrite heart and humble spirit..Jesus blood paid for all this, but if you are too proud and do not accept Jesus died for not just you - the other person, well theres another place for you.
  7. We need to be aware that there is such a thing as a spirit of offense, which is about us, and not the offender, and we nee to steer clear of it, for there is much carnage that comes with entertaining such a spirit.

    I have never heard of a church that teaches the bible not teaching about what God says to us about relationships and how we are to forgive and to confess one to another.

    As for blaspheming Holy Spirit, that is a particular sin that a born again person cannot commit. It is committed by degenerates.
    Fish Catcher Jim and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  8. I thought that what ever we do unto one another we do unto God!

    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
    Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
    JG27_chili and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  9. I like to call all sin hatred. Hatred has various levels of intent and we can hate anything. Even an ant.

    Since God created everything, hating anything is hating Him.

    The only blur is sexual sin. Since nobody appears to be wronged or hurt it seems as though all is good. But sexual sin is pulling the middle finger to God. God did not create us animals. He expects us to honor Him with our bodies.

    I always think about how funny it is that Jesus said all sin = sin with His example in Matt 5:28 and then simply four lines down He appears to contradict Himself in Matt 5:32 suggesting that we must not divorce for any reason other then adultery. Isolating a certain sin above others. I think it should be pretty clear to every mature Christian that Matt 5:28, just like Matt 5:39 'do not resist an evil person' are rhetorical overstatements. They are true but cannot be taken 'as is'. We need to look beyond our noses. The example Jesus used is classic! Who has not thought immorally of someone else :giggle:. His point hits home immediately. We all fall short of being worthy to enter God's presence.

    Having sin is a completely separate issue to dealing with loving or hating what is evil. Love has degrees. Forgiving those who wronged us is step 1 of love but hardly going to make an impact on the wicked. Loving our enemy is doing unto them as we would like done unto us. Feed them, visit them if in prison, look after their finances, look after their family, ensure they are not being hurt by others.

    If we can discern that stealing out of desperation from the rich < stealing from a poor much more God. We can follow this line of thinking through to every sin. The level of hatred behind / driving a sin is directly related to how lost we are. I do not for one second believe that we need to know about Jesus to hate sin. But hating sin does lead us to Jesus / God finding us. Paul statement in Rom 7:15 is classic. It points as clear as daylight to a state that we all need to be in. We sin, but we hate it. Hating sin means you cannot / should not be capable of mortal sins. Paul did not say I don't want to murder but I do. When He repented, he stopped murdering Christians. His statement in Rom 7:15 is definitely implying venial sins. Imagine he continued murdering... All who say sin = sin just need to grasp that he did not continue murdering...
  10. The only two types of sin I know of, are the ones you do when you know it is wrong, and the ones you do NOT do when you know you should do.
    The doing or not doing are only the action or inaction part based on what you decided to do or not do which was the sin part. In other words, sin does not become sin when you do or not do, but when you decided to do or not do them! :)
    KingJ likes this.
  11. What I'm trying to focus on is the atonement aspect of when we sin against one another. I think it is missing from teachings. I think it is fundamental in seeking forgiveness that we see how we can atone to our brother/sister to make it easier for them to forgive. Just because we apologize and repent doesn't mean we made it right. Setting a record straight, returning stolen or fraudulently gained goods/monies. We may only want to onfess and repent...but I think atoning to be critical as well. If we don't atone we just burden our victim in unforgiveness and can say "Well he has to forgive me because God says so". If we truly love our neighbor as ourselves wouldn't we like to be approached and asked " Hey. How can I make this right between us?"
  12. I haven't experienced a lack of this teaching lately (not from my parish anyway -- I recently heard a great homily on this). But all in all, you're right that correcting an offense to someone that we're responsible for is extremely important.
  13. A few years a go, a young man in my cell group spoke out in the group and insulted me badly. I held my peace and immediately left when the meeting was over and cried all the way home. Later, I called my leader and her husband and asked them to speak to the young man and tell him how he was hurtful and impress upon him to apologize. Well, the husband spoke to him and he refused, and denied that what he said was a problem. Our leader then took him to the cell line pastor and he still refused. So, I had a choice: forgive him or be miserably hurt indefinitely. I chose to forgive, even though I was till hurting from the remark. Many weeks later, he came up to me in church and greeted me only. That was a test for me! I warmly greeted him as if nothing had passed between us, and it has been that way since. However, the Lord (I am sure) has caused his life to become a bit complicated, and consequently he and his wife are longer attending our church. I wish them well, because I was very fond of his dear wife, but I can see how God remedies the situation for His kids, and for me, particularly, as I committed to be obedient even though it was very difficult. When we commit our ways to Him, He does smooth out the rough patches!

    One of my favourites:

    Isaiah 40:4
    Every valley shall be exalted
    And every mountain and hill brought low;
    The crooked places shall be made straight
    And the rough places smooth;
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  14. well, true repentance does turn you around and WANT to atone by making up for it.
    otherwise its just words with no action...and that's not repentance, that's remorse.
  15. Forgiveness does not release those who offend us, it releases us from the torment that it brings if we do not forgive them who offend us.

    Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
    Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
    Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
    Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
    Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
    Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
    Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
    Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
    Euphemia likes this.
  16. I think you've got it.
  17. This hits the nail right on the head. To many Christians feel they do not have to forgive unless the other comes to them. The truth is God said forgive them right now and pray for them. This does not mean pray God will make them apologise but to lift them up. Pray blessings on them. When we operate like this before the Lord, this Gives Him a place to work or something to work with. His word being used always brings results.

    Euphemia I am proud of you for actually forgiving him even though he acted as if nothing was ever done wrongly. This is a wonderful example of living Gods word.
    Thank you for sharing this.

    Euphemia likes this.
  18. #18 Euphemia, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
    I sure do appreciate your words, Jim. However, whenever I think of the young man, or see him (I rarely do, now), I have to beat down a small feeling of something---is it resentment? Not absolutely positive. My mother, who was a pastoral counselor told me that it is like having a healed wound and the tendency we have to rub the scar. I don't have animosity or anything---just a scar. I believe the Lord is assuring me that He is not regarding this as bitterness or unforgiveness, but that it is just human memory. That said, I have had a person in my life hurt me badly in the past and do you think I can remember what happened? I wouldn't have even known had a third party not come to me and remind me one day! I remembered then, and quickly forgot it again! I cannot remember still! I think that is a miracle of God right there!
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  19. @Euphemia,
    That is part of fighting the good fight of faith. We can NOT stop the thoughts from coming BUT we can control how we respond to them. That is the entire point of forgiving. Shoot between the flesh and the devil, you will have plenty of chances to pick at the wound. lol

    Your reply reminded me of something I heard once. God used this big time in my life. A man had been praying about this same type of thing and God took him through this exercise.
    God told the man to make this big heart on this big piece of wood. So He did. Then God told him to hammer all these nails into it. So he did. Then God asked Him what he saw and the man said a heart full of nails....God said each nail represented a hurt or let down and every time his heart was broken and every offense against him.

    Then God said to pull out every nail out and tell Him what he saw. The man said a heart full of tiny wholes. God said yes. Each whole represented a wound that God had healed. He said even though He healed him of those hurts they leave scars. God said if you leave the scars alone they will eventually get smaller and smaller until you do not even notice them.

    However if you pick at these scars or another words rehash the events or allow bitterness to resume or allow aught to remain or come back it is as if the offense or nails are there again.
    God said just like a wound on your pick at the scar it will break open and ooze so keep your heart protected by doing His word and NOT to begin to allow anything to pick at those scars or offenses.
    Just thought I would share this.
    Have a great night
    Euphemia likes this.
  20. Good word, brother Jim!
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