Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Hrt4Christ, Oct 14, 2009.
Can you please clarify..is it the "gift of tongues" as in 1st Cor 12:10 different kinds of tongues ...if so yes it is still in operation today.
The manifestation of tongues which is evidence of receiving the Baptism of The Holy Spirit...as in Acts 2:4....yes still in operation today.
I will answer your second question once you have clarified..
I believe that tongues, of all kinds, still exists, but at the same time I believe there is a lot of false tongues out there.
I think it is discouraged primarily because of fear. It is one issue that churches do not like to face and can split a church faster than God split the red sea. Part of the fear, I believe, stems from the fear of the unknown. People do not like what they are not familiar with. Also, people resist change. Thirdly, people do not understand it or its purposes. Fourth, research has shown that those who do not speak in tongues hold a great deal of misconceptions about tongues and about those who do speak in them. Fifth, I think that the sensationalization of tongues has not helped. Sixth, I think that the misuse of tongues and people's experiences with false tongues had led people to have a general bad feeling towards tongues.
Just some of my thoughts.....
Well, I don't want to open up a can of worms or anything.....
Some researchers have suggested that there is more psychopathy public glossolalics as opposed to private ones. This is not to say that those who practice speaking in tongues publicly have psychopathy, just that it is potentially more prevalent among those. It is thought that the charismatic movement may draw in those who are unstable to begin with, and then as a result you find these types of individuals. Again, this is not saying that charismatics are unstable. I really don't want anyone to misunderstand me at all. It is thought, though, that certain personality types may be drawn to similar types of congregations. So, while not all charismatics are unstable in any way, you do get an element within the movement that is. This includes speaking in tongues.
Throughout history you can find evidence of these things when it comes to the use/ misuse of tongues. There have been more than one group of people hisotrically who have displayed this. In modern times, I think it leaks more into what we call mainstream churches, especially if you have a pastor/ leader who is prone to it.
There is a church up the road a bit that has all their children in their children's church speaking in tongues. I believe that these types of movements can be very dangerous and false. It is not that I do not believe a child can be filled and speak in in tongues, because I believe God can do anything he wills. It is that I know that: 1) children are very impressionable, and 2) children seek to please adults. This is just one example of many where I am very cautious.
I was raised in pentecostal churches, with full moves of the spirit and tongues. So, for me, it is not something out of place or an oddity. I think, in part, this is also why when I hear and see false tongues it puts me so on edge.
There has been research on tongues where linguists were asked to listen to tongues (and also false tongues), and trained linguists were able to tell the false tongues form the real tongues. Research has shown that the "average Joe" in not able to tell the difference between faked and real tongues.
If I have time, I'll pull out all my references for the research I mentioned above. :smiley160: It takes some time to pull it all out.
Edit: I wanted to make note, so that I am not misunderstood, that no research has found psychopathy displayed in any of the glossolalic samples they have measured. That is why earlier I wrote that it has been suggested that.... I don't want anyone confusing what I wrote and misquoting me to say that people who speak in tongues publicly are psychopaths.
This is by no means exhaustive:
Grady, B., Lowenthal, K. M. (1997). Features associated with speaking in tongues
(glossolalia). British Journal of Medical Psychology, 70, 185-191.
Hempel, A. G., Meloy, J. R., Stern, R., Ozone, S. J., Gray, B. T. (2002). Fiery tongues and mystical motivations: glossolalia in a forensic population is associated with mania and sexual/ religious delusions. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 47, 305-312.
Kildahl, J. P. (1972). The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues. Harper & Row
Publishers: New York.
Laffal, J., Monahan, J., Richman, P. (1974). Communication of meaning in glossolalia. The journal of social psychology, 92, 277-291.
McCrae, R., R. (1999). Mainstream personality psychology and the study of religion. Journal of Personality, 67(6), 1209-1218.
Sherrill, J. L. (1964). They Speak With Other Tongues. McGraw- Hill: NewYork.
Spanos, N. P., Cross, W. P., Lepage, M., Coristine, M. (1986). Glossolalia as learned behavior: An experimental demonstration. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 95 (1), 21-23.
Stagg, F., Hinson, E. G., Oates, W. E. (1967). Glossolalia. Abingdon Press: Nashville.
Vermeir, K. (2004). The ‘physical prophet’ and the powers of the imagination. PartI: a case study on prophecy, vapours and the imagination (1685-1710). Studies in History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical Sciences, 35, 561-591.
Acts 2:4 This is clearly the manifestation of receiving The Holy Spirit but in 1 Cor 12:10 is the "gift" of tongues which is different.
Everyone who receives the Baptism of The Holy Spirit receives the manifestation (a tongue) Whereas the gift of tongues is an ability to speak with tongue when prompted by The Holy Spirit to do so , which is then interpreted by another in the meeting, this is not given to everyone.
Paul encourages the one who has this gift to also pray for the gift of interpretation, however one can obviously have the gift of tongues and not have the ability to interpret.
I noticed that you have combined all the scriptures together which tells me that you will not agree with what I have said but thats OK too.
Some denominations believe that it is a definitive sign of salvation, and some even state that unless you speak in tongues, then you never received the Holy Spirit and therefore have not received salvation.
The main problem I see with speaking in tongues is simply that it's a very simple thing to fake. Yet, what I do not see in any modern church is the type of speaking in tongues that was mentioned in Acts when the Holy Spirit was first received. I have yet to see anyone speak in one language, and be understood by others speaking in various other languages. While I have had "similar" experiences, nothing whatsoever on this magnitude.
The gift of tongues is found in 1 Cor 12:9 - it is just one of the gifts, like healing,interpretation,wisdom, prophecy ..tongues are not an exception.
NO we are not all given these same gifts in verse 11 of that same chapter it tells us gifts are given "as The Spirit wills". When being used in this gift one would always speak in a language other than your own, that is why interpretion is necessary.
You are speaking about preaching boldly, perhaps that is what The Lord is calling you to do, and yes it would be a gift, I pray that The Lord would lead you through The Holy Spirit, perhaps He wants you in the ministry to preach.
Yes you are quite right tongues can be fake but those listening who are filled with The Holy Spirit will immediately know it in their spirit, of course an unbeliever would not. We all need to pray for discernment.
No one will never experience the magnitude of what took place in Acts there is no need. In the church today only three persons in a meeting are permitted to speak in tongues...1 Cor 14 :27
I guess I believe 'differently'.
This is what I believe after very careful study.
Tongues Refer to Earthly Languages
The gift of tongues was a supernatural ability to speak an earthly foreign language without special training. Tongues comes from the word glossa, so the word glossalalia means "to speak in tongues." The word tongues (glossa), when used in the New Testament, either refers to the physical tongue and its basic meaning or to the language that the tongue speaks.
To begin a study of tongues, get a concordance and look up theword tongue (glossa), and look at all the places it is used and how it is used. In the following references (not a complete list) every time the word tongue (glossa) is used, it always refers to an earthly foreign language: Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9.
Law of First Mention
In hermeneutics (the study of interpreting the Scripture), there is a Law of First Mention which simply refers to the fact that the first mention of an area, a fact or a word, becomes a pattern for subsequent uses of that word or expression or phenomenon.
The first mention of speaking in tongues in the Bible is found in Acts 2:4: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Other "tongues" is the Greek word glossa. All the different people present are listed in verses 9 and 10. These various groups of people are saying that they hear what is being said in their own language (verse 11).
Tongues an earthly language is further substantiated in Acts 2:6, "And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language." The Greek word used here for language is "dialect," but glossa and dialect are used interchangeably so glossa has to mean an earthly language. (Dialect is also used in verse 8.)
The gift of tongues was Spirit-motivated speech (Acts 2:4) in a particular language as we have already established. Now it would be hard to believe that the Spirit today is motivating believers to speak in babblings or ecstatic speech, because that is contrary to what God did when He first gave this ability. Unless there is good reason to think that God changed this particular ability and gift, we have to assume that the gift of tongues will be the same throughout the entire Bible.
Gift of Tongues Was a Sign to Unbelievers and a Sign of Judgment to Israel
"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers" (1 Cor. 14:22).
In verse 21, the Old Testament is quoted to substantiate that one of the basic purposes of tongues is to be a sign for unbelievers, but also tongues were a sign to the Jewish nation that they were to be judged for their unbelief (Deut. 28:49).
Anytime there is a foreign language being spoken among the Jews, it is a sign that God is judging the nation Israel because these foreigners would have conquered Israel (Isa. 28:9 13). Isaiah foretells the judgment God is going to bring on Israel. The particular people here who have stammering lips and a foreign tongue are the Assyrians. The presence of the Assyrian language in Israel is an indication and a sign to Israel that God is judging them for their unbelief.
Tongues Were One of the Sign Gifts
The sign gifts, remember, were temporary gifts to validate the ministry of the apostles (2 Cor. 12:12). Tongues are specifically called a sign in 1 Corinthians 14:22.
Once a message had been confirmed by signs and wonders, there was no longer a need for further confirmation (Heb. 2:3 4).
The Gift of Tongues Is not Present Today
What about the ecstatic speech that is a common phenomenon today? Speaking in tongues as it is practiced today is not Biblical tongues. (We have already established that Biblical tongues refers to foreign languages.) The babblings of today have their origin in the mystery cults of ancient Greece and the Roman Empire, and it was practiced by unbelievers.
Book of Acts Is a Transition Book From Old Testament to New Testament
The Book of Acts records a transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. God deals differently with men in the New Testament. Throughout the Old Testament, beginning with Abraham all the way down to Acts 2, God was dealing primarily with one group of people -- the Jews. Then in Acts 2, God begins a totally new work; He is going to deal with all peoples and all nations and make them one people.
To make sure that there is not a Jewish church developing and a separate Samaritan church developing, the Samaritans are brought under the umbrella of the apostles' leadership in Acts 8. They can be sure that God is working through the apostles to lead and teach them because they receive the Holy Spirit.
You can readily see the importance of tongues as a sign gift -- as a demonstration of God doing a new work and in doing that new work, He is also judging the nation Israel for their unbelief.
Tongues Were a Sign to the Jews That Gentiles Were to Be Part of the Body of Christ
In the first part of Acts 10, God had to give Peter a special vision so that Peter would be willing to speak to Cornelius and his household (Gentiles). "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message" (Acts 10:44). What was the reaction of the Jewish believers? "And all the circumcised believers (Jews) who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:45). The Jews recognized this sign and its significance (Acts 11:15 18).
What was the sign that the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles? The sign is found in Acts 10:46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God." So again, the gift of tongues was proof that God was not only going to include Jews and Samaritans, but Gentiles as well into the one body God was making. Once the fact had been established, it did not have to be repeated. Once the Jews knew that the Gentiles were to be a part of the Body of Christ, it does not make sense that every time a Gentile believed, he had to give the evidence, for that had already been established. That is the foundation we are to build upon.
God Began a New Work in Book of Acts
In Acts 19, when Paul meets the disciples of John at Ephesus, Paul asks them if they have received the Holy Spirit and they answer, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit" (Acts 19:2). Now some people take this verse as proof that you do not receive the Holy Spirit when you first believe. However, if you read on in Acts 19, you find out they have been baptized "into John's baptism." If they have been part of John's ministry, they know that there is a Holy Spirit (John 1:33), so Acts 19:2 cannot mean they did not know about the Holy Spirit. What it obviously means is that they had not heard whether the Holy Spirit had been given -- that the Holy Spirit was here performing His baptizing ministry.
"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying" (Acts 19:6). God wanted to demonstrate that He was doing a new work, and when you recognize that it was a new work, you have to recognize that the book of Acts is mainly about the transition from Old Covenant to the New Covenant.
Ephesians 2 stresses the fact that God was indeed doing a new work, a work that is today revealed through the Apostle Paul's writing, "Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12; see also verses, 11 16).
Then in Ephesians 3:4 5, "And by referring to this when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit." Note that this was not previously revealed; it was new revelation. As a new revelation, it needed the signs and miraculous evidence that it was indeed revelation. "As it has now been revealed" to whom? -- all the apostles and prophets!
Self-Edification Was Never the Main Purpose of Tongues
The main purpose of tongues, as already pointed out, was to give a sign to unbelievers. Self-edification was a side effect that the believer enjoyed for merely exercising his gift of tongues (true of every believer who exercises his gift). The modern day Pentecostal movement, on the other hand, stresses edification for the individual believer and the Church, never as a sign to unbelievers.
Most people who are advocating tongues for today have quoted 1 Corinthians 14:2: "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." There are some problems here. In chapter 12, the purpose of the gifts in general is edification of other believers. Now, God does not need to be edified (built up to further maturity). First Corinthians 14:2 is not an encouragement to speak to God in tongues (a different language), for He will understand whatever language I use, including English. The advantage of my using English is that you and other believers will understand and that is the purpose of spiritual gifts -- to communicate, to serve and to build up other believers.
Not Every Believer Was Expected to Have Gift of Tongues
"All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they?" (1 Cor. 12:30). The gift of tongues was limited to a few, even back in the time of the apostles. How can people today say that to have the Holy Spirit a believer must speak in tongues? In light of 1 Cor. 12, that is clearly unbiblical.
First Corinthians 14:5 is often quoted to prove that the gift of tongues is still operative today: "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying." Why do some put the emphasis on tongues when Paul said that he had a greater desire for the people to prophesy? I do not have anyone coming around to my door saying that I need to get the gift of prophecy, but I have people praying that I will get the gift of tongues. Paul is saying that he would like them to have all the gifts, but he would rather that they have the greater gifts. Paul is not saying that tongues is the gift they should have. If they should have any, it should be the greater gift of prophecy. The gift of tongues was the least important of all the spiritual gifts. It was last on the list (see 1 Cor. 12:28).
Summary of Gift of Tongues
It is not my purpose to put down the gift of tongues which was a very necessary gift at one time, but rather to evaluate whether or not that gift has continued until today. According to the Bible, the gift of tongues ceased to exist with the passing of the apostles.
The Scripture teaches that tongues was a special ability to speak in an earthly foreign language without special training. The purpose of such a gift was to be used as a sign to validate the ministry of the apostles as they laid the foundation of the Church. Once the foundation was complete, there was no need for special signs to confirm the validity of God's work.
The present day phenomenon called "speaking in tongues" (glossalalia) is characterized by indiscernible sounds. Since that could not be called a foreign language that is understandable by some group today, glossalalia cannot be validly called Biblical tongues.
I just wanted to comment that in modern times, the term "glossolalia" is used to refer to the phenomenon as a whole (known and unknown tongues), but most frequently used only to describe unknown tongues. Xenoglossy is the term used to describe the speaking in a foreign language not previously learned.
The sounds are not indiscernible, the "language" is what is not readily identified. There are just over 6800 known languages in the world. It is always possible that there are languages in existence that are unknown as well. With the sheer number of languages in the world, and the small number of studies and sample of tongues, can we really conclude that all modern day tongues is incoherent babbling? There are some languages in the world that have as few as 1 speaker. Can we really know for certain that tongues may not be an obscure known language?
Research that has subjected tongues to the scrutiny of expert linguists has found that none consider the tongues they heard to be a known language. What they did find was that tongues had a distinct structure, like a poem or psalm, and they were able to tell the difference between faked and real tongues. The faked tongues lacked the structure and sounded like noise.
Research has also found that tongues do convey a message. The emotion and sometimes the message behind the tongues is often conveyed through the tongue, even though the tongue is not understood. So, it is conveying a message, but not necessarily what we consider to be a translation.
Tongues has been likened to the cries and babbles of an infant. The infant has different cries and babbles different words to mean different things. A mother hears those cries and babbles and understands the needs of her infant, even though they are not what we would call a language. The infant/ toddler is communicating.
References...... some are the same as in my previous post. Off hand I'm not sure if I used any new ones.
Biblically speaking, well, I don't know how to say this but here goes...
It has to be discernible. Otherwise, that person is just talking to the air:
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1 Cor 14:9
That's why there is a need for an interpreter. If there is no interpreter, the bible says...
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church;
1 Cor 14:28