Because laws cannot arise from chaos. Furthermore, the laws that rule the universe are completely intelligible and even mathematical. How can something such as the law of gravitation, with its mathematical perfectness, have arisen from complete chaos and nothingness?
Thinking Exercise: Is Christianity Right?
- Thread starter LysanderShapiro
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Because laws cannot arise from chaos. Furthermore, the laws that rule the universe are completely intelligible and even mathematical. How can something such as the law of gravitation, with its mathematical perfectness, have arisen from complete chaos and nothingness?
10* ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
God calls him a "liar" who believes not what he has shown man.
Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
Galatians 4:4
2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-6
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3
Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
Romans 9:5
5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19
Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah.
Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:14
8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:3
9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
Hebrews 1:8-12
10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
John 7:5
15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
21 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
22 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
23 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-11
24 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
25 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-16
26 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
27 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
28 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
29 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
30 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
31 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-28
32 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
John 19:28-30
33 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
34 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
35 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-36
36 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
37 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
38 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
39 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
40 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
41 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7
Acts 2:22-32
42 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
Luke 24:51
43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
Matthew 22:44
44 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8
Indeed. But how could God arise from nothingness?
These are just Bible verses. How can the Bible be valid if God's existence is still in question? We can't have circular arguments.
To answer the question what is the probability of one man fulfilling eight prophecies, the principal of probability is applied. Therefore, multiplying eight probabilities together (1 times 2.8 x 105 x 103 x 102 x 103 x 103 x 105 x 103 x 104) gives us 2.8 x 1028, or for simplicity sake 1 x 1028 or 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Given this and the time span between the writings of the Old Testament and the fulfillment by Christ in the New Testament, the prophecies were either given to the prophets by God, or the prophets just wrote them down as they thought they should be. With Christ fulfilling all eight prophecies, what are the odds the prophets were just guessing?
Indeed. But likewise, how did the existence of God take place out of nothing?
Because time is a property of this universe. God's existence is not constrained to this universe and, therefore, his existence is outside of time (the law of cause and effect does not apply to him).
Why is it safe to conclude God is the filler of these constrains?
I'd like to get there eventually. Right now, I'd like an argument for the existence of a deity or deities.
Can you explain that a little more? I couldn't understand it.
I don't think Hawking's postulation is germane. SergioL, if I understand him correctly, is arguing here about the initiation of the laws themselves, not whether or not following those laws could eventually produce an earth like ours on their own.
When attempting to look "before" the cosmic singularity, at this point it seems more likely that the natural laws (and quantum laws for that matter) as we know them did not exist. I think SergioL's argument is something like this: (1-The natural laws had a beginning 2-Things that begin have a cause 3-There for the natural laws have a cause ) coupled with (1-The natural laws appear intelligently contrived. 2-Things that are contrived are a product of intelligence. 3-It seems likely that the cause from argument one is intelligent)
Well, for example, we know that things like time, math, and gravity or properties of this universe, therefore they couldn't be recipes to creating it. So usually the explanation for these things are God. But why is God the explanation by default? Perhaps God is, but what if its something other than God?
I suspect there is clearer evidence for God, or at least clearer reasons to argue for it. But why believe it if there is no tangible evidence? Does that mean the Atheists are at least more rational in believing there is no deity?
Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. I think Professor John Lennox wrote about this.
Can you prove any of that happened without using the Bible as proof of itself?
I'm just playing Devils advocate like you.