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The two gospels ~ ~ the two audiences.......

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Dok, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. Paul and Peter did not "preach" or "teach" to the same audiences. If you will examine WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE and HOW (never WHY) for each of them, you will come to that understanding. Paul, after he "got his wings," taught that Jesus was the Son of God who sacrificed Himself for our original sin and our daily sins. His sacrifice was "willing," not because of murder. After being laid in the tomb He arose, and after 40 days, ascended to Heaven. We can receive Him if we will confess Him as Savior and Lord (John 3:3, Romans 10:8-13). That was the message for a Christian audience, not revealed to anyone but the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:9.)

    Peter, on the other hand, told the Jews (his audience) that they had murdered the Messiah (See Acts 2:22, and 29-38). Even though the 12, and most likely the 70, had been told in advance what was going to happen, they didn't accept it and rejected it (Peter is a good example, Matthew 16:21-23). They were not aware of the fact that Jesus was going to voluntarily go to the Cross! Take a look at Luke 18:33-34, and John 20:9, and the Acts references. Do that now, before you continue reading.

    Obviously, in the early chapters of Acts and in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the 12+70 were unaware of Paul's gospel of salvation by grace through faith, the GIFT of God. They were still going about announcing the advent of the promised Jewish Messiah, having nothing to do with Gentiles and grace! After the ascension of Jesus Peter insisted that the Jewish people should repent (return to the Law and the oral traditions) and be ceremonially bathed, so that this same Jesus who had ascended would immediately return to establish the Kingdom of God, the 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom, with Jesus on the Throne (see Acts 3:19-21), a fulfillment of ancient prophecy.

    Paul was obviously the Apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15, Romans 11:13). Peter was looking to the Law and to ritual, while Paul was saying to non-Jews that they were not under the Law and the traditions (Romans 6:14), and neither were the Jews, if they would accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Instead, the Jews rejected the Messiah and rejected Grace.

    If we Christians will get a grip on that, if we will "rightly divide" scripture, we won't have anything left to debate! We can then discuss, honor, and glorify our Savior!
     


  2. Considering Paul wasn't converted until Acts 9 , that's not surprising.


    Re the rest, I think Acts 10-11 ties it all up.
     
  3. Permit me to clarify.

    Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and the twelve apostles (and the 70) preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God on earth (Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew) to Israel. It was not a “Christian” Heaven “out there, somewhere.”

    John the Baptist wandered about saying that folks should repent because the Kingdom of God/Heaven on earth was ready to happen, then and there! Look that up in Matthew 3:2 and then in Mark 1:4. What were John’s qualifiers? Return to the Law, ceremonially bathe yourselves, so that you will be ready to receive forgiveness of your sins and enter the Kingdom. No one told them at that time that Jesus was going to die on the Cross. They were told that He was the promised Messiah, who would be seated on the Throne of David in the Kingdom, just as the Hebrew scriptures foretold. In Mark 1:14-15 we see Jesus preaching the Kingdom of Heaven/God on earth. Look at Matthew 4:17 and 9:35. It doesn’t get much clearer than that! That’s what He, the 12, and the 70 were preaching and would preach during the time of Jesus on the earth and thereafter. Read Matthew 10:5-7. Not a word about the crucifixion. What did He say to the Canaanite woman? Matthew 15:21-28. "I am not sent except to (literally) the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Jesus does not respond to the request of the Greeks in John 12:20-22. The ONLY thing that the Jewish folk understood concerning Him was that He was the promised Messiah. That included the Apostle Peter! See Matthew 16:21-22. His followers did not understand that. See Luke 18:33-34, and John 20:9. What did his disciples ask Him in Acts 1:6? Peter does not begin to understand until the lowering of the sheet, until he meets with Cornelius. Peter describes the teachings of Paul as “hard to understand” and warns that “some” are distorting them. 2 Peter 3:16.

    Now someone is going to tell me that we simply remove all the Jewish references and insert Christians? Give me a break! Would it go something like this?

    “Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and the twelve apostles (and the 70) preached the gospel of salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God, minus works, and told the Jewish folks (well, all the folks in Israel), to organize churches, find musicians, set aside Sunday morning and evening for worship, and then have a mid-week prayer service. They said to forget the Law and the oral instructions and all those rules and regulations. Forget about the promised Messiah. You just confess Jesus as Savior and Lord and follow Him in Believer’s baptism. Then when you die you go straight to Heaven.”

    Brethren, there weren’t any Christians walking around with Jesus! It isn’t until Acts 9 and after that we see Paul’s ministry fulfilled, the ministry of salvation by grace through faith, the mystery hid in God revealed (Ephesians 3:1-5, 9; 6:18-20; Collosians 1:25-27), NOT Law, NOT ceremonial washings, NOT oral and written traditions! Paul preached the GRACE message, while those Apostles / Disciples who were sent to carry out the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) were still preaching and teaching KINGDOM NOW! Clearly, they didn’t have a clue about grace since it hadn’t been revealed yet!

    Brethren, my heart’s cry for the church is that we will cease pouring the Hebrew scriptures and the ministry of Jesus to the Jews into a blender with the Pauline Epistles! When we do that, cries of “contradiction” spew forth! “Adjustments” are made so that the Southern Baptists can understand what was “really” meant. “Yahess, Brrrethren, yahess and A - Mana, waa-tahh BAP-tism is an ordinance provided by ouerrrr Savvvv-ior, Jesusss, as a TEST-timony to what has ALLLL-ready hahhhpennedddd in the life of the BEE-liever, PA-raise Goddd!” Or the Church of Christ. “Yahess, Brrethren, yahess and A - Mana, water baptism is the key to SAL-vationnnn; if you aren’t BAP-tized in WA-ter you’ll go to the fiery furnace of <shudder> Helllllll ! !

    I rest my case.

    THE JUDGE: The jury will retire for the verdict.

    ...........and all God’s chillen’ shouted, HALLELUJAH! and AMEN!
     
  4. John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"

    John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"

    What you have said is not in accordance with what the Bible declares.


    No, simply correct you from the scriptures. Note what PETER said when asked what is required for salvation from his very FIRST speech at Pentacost while Paul was still Saul and persecuting the church for NOT teaching according to Judaism:-

    Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

    Nothing there from the Mosaic Law. Understand that as Saul, Paul persecuted the church, and the Sanhedrin persecuted Christ BECAUSE they did NOT teach according to Jewish custom.

    But why is it you are being (to use the colloquial) so " in your face" challenging to those here with arguments that are contrary to the word of God? It is not behavior I would expect from a brother or sister in Christ.
     
  5. John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"

    Obviously, His Kingdom did not and does not originate here. It is fore-ordained by God in that "place" which is not of this world. His Kingdom is not "worldly." Who is His audience? Christians? No.

    John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"

    Yes, He will come again to establish His Kingdom on earth after the Tribulation and Armageddon. There He will receive the 12 Tribes of Israel, to rule and reign with Him.

    Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

    Abundantly clear that this is a Kingdom passage, telling the Jews to repent and be ceremonially washed. Peter was not talking to Christians. There weren't any around until Paul.

    Nothing there from the Mosaic Law. Understand that as Saul, Paul persecuted the church, and the Sanhedrin persecuted Christ BECAUSE they did NOT teach according to Jewish custom.

    Understand? You actually think that I don't know that Saul persecuted the church? That the Sanhedrin persecuted Christ? Give me a break! It was exactly as you say, but there were no Christians around at the time. You are failing to understand the difference between the Kingdom gospel and the gospel according to Paul. You are manufacturing Peter's audience! Sadly, that is what one denomination after another does.
     
  6. His audience is anybody who will listen, that is why His words were recorded and preserved for future generations and not for Pilate's ears alone. But note Jesus makes the point that His servants would fight to save Him if it was a matter of a worldly kingdom, but THIS world (meaning the Earth) has nothing to do with the Kingdom HE is establishing.

    Actually the Bible does not say this. If you indicate the passages you are relying on I will show you why.

    Nowhere in the Mosaic Law does it require one be baptized in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST and you will receive the Holy Spirit That is something ONLY Christians do. Ceremonial washing under the Mosaic Law was for cleansing, not for receiving the Holy Spirit. the Mosaic Law was to convict and atone for sin, not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit that comes only by the grace of the Lord THROUGH Christ Jesus alone.

    it is just that you seem to be unaware that the leaders of Judaism persecuted Christ and the Apostles for preaching CONTRARY to the Jewish traditions and customs not for upholding them as you are saying they were doing.

    But understand it was not the followers of Christ that coined the name Christians. it is what OTHERS called those who followed Christ be they Jew or Gentile followers and that includes the Apostles and the 3,000 that were baptized at Pentacost.

     
  7. You continue to either misinterpret what I write, or continue to dwell on information erroneously promoted by "the church" for centuries. Misinterpreting involves reading a sentence that I write and then applying it to a different reference. The simple instruction of Paul to Timothy, to "rightly divide," is ignored by one church after another, and all of the cults. The JW's and Mormon's are excellent examples of contributing to the confusion.

    Those of us who are authentically born again believe all the Bible, from Genesis 1:1 thru Revelation 22:21. However, ALL of those referenced scriptures are not applicable to us today. That is, we do not apply them as they were once applied. We cannot plug ourselves into scriptures intended purely for a Jewish audience for a different purpose. The Hebrew Bible and the 3 gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are full of references to the promised Messiah and His arrival (in actual years, around 26-27 a.d). These scriptures clearly indicate that the Jews, who were looking for Messiah, rejected Him as soon as He arrived on the scene. We Christians simply cannot apply Genesis through Luke to ourselves in terms of obligations or indicators of our status before God, and we have to be spiritually led in John to "rightly divide."

    Those revelations, those insights, are found in the Pauline Epistles, years after the Jewish Messiah was rejected. It isn't until Acts 9 and after that we Christians receive insights into who we are and our relationship to God by grace through faith, not law. Even Peter was expecting the return of Jesus at any moment, AND did not comprehend the message to we Gentiles until Acts 10. The failure of Christendom to comprehend and apply this Truth is the cause of division upon division of those who claim to know the Savior, witness the thousands of denominations, and worst of all, the cults.

    Way past my bedtime. G'Nite.
     
  8. Well I for one believe the WHOLE of the Bible which is why I cannot ever agree with what you are saying because what you are saying is contrary to what the Bible says as I have been pointing out. I do not believe every spirit that says they are from God or in Christ but TEST all against the WHOLE bible to SEE if they are or not as I am commanded to do. Just letting you know so that you understand the claims people make about their own spiritual standing are of no account to me as I would not expect them to do of me either.

    But addressing the rest of your comment I note that several times you have made reference to the phrase " rightly divide" and I get the impression you have made the error of taking this as a command to actually divide the scriptures. If that is the case then I need to point out to you that you have misunderstood the actual meaning of the Greek word translated here as " dividing". It is the Greek word "orthotomeo" meaning to correctly and directly teach and declare the truth from the idea to cut a straight path and hold to a straight course. It has nothing to do with actually dividing one part of scripture from the other.

    Remember it was also Paul who assured Timothy that "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

    Note ALL scripture not just some.
     
  9. I am well-aware of the proper interpretation of "rightly dividing." It is as you say. That's precisely what the scriptures beg for: a clear, straight path to the truth. That is where countless pastors, writers, evangelists, theologians et al mess up. As I indicated, I believe the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. Clearly, I know now and have known for lo, these many years, that all scripture is inspired....... etc.

    A friend and fellow expositor writes it like this:

    Abraham

    Summary

    Copyright Matthew McGee "Wielding the Sword of the Spirit," 2004. All rights reserved.

    God chose Abraham out of all the human race and made of him the nation of Israel to be a Kingdom of priests to eventually evangelize all of mankind when their Messiah sets up His Kingdom. When their Messiah, Jesus Christ, came, He plainly told the twelve apostles that He was going to be killed and rise from the dead. But this was hidden from them by God, and they could not understand. The many Jews, who did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, crucified Him, and He was buried, and He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. But the offer for Israel to receive their Messiah and Kingdom remained open for a while longer if they would only believe that He was who He said He was. The twelve apostles led by Peter, preached the gospel of the Kingdom to Israel, that Israel should believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, repent, and be baptized with water. If they all did this, then Jesus Christ would return and bring in the Kingdom just as the Old Testament prophets had foretold. There was nothing in Peter's message about departing from the law of Moses, to which the believing Jews adhered. Peter presented them the offer of the Kingdom in the early chapters of Acts. But many in Israel still did not believe and rejected the ascended Lord Jesus Christ. But when Christ returns and purges the unbelieving two thirds (Zechariah 13:8-9), the remaining one third will all accept Him as their Messiah.

    When they rejected the ascended Lord in the early chapters of Acts, God called Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Up until that time, God had been dealing only with Israel, with just a few exceptions. Our ascended Lord Jesus Christ committed unto Paul the dispensation of the grace of God which had always been a secret hidden by God. This was a new program with new doctrine which God would show to Paul through many revelations. Paul was shown that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ had been the perfect sacrifice that paid for all of our sin, and that He had been raised from the dead for our justification. This is the gospel of grace, the gospel of our salvation today, which had before been a mystery, hidden by God. Under this present dispensation, we are saved by grace, through faith in the gospel alone, apart from the law of Moses or any other works. Even though Peter and Paul preached different gospels, there is no conflict between them because they dispensed their gospels to two separate audiences. So they were both correct. Peter preached Kingdom doctrine to the Jews in the land of Israel, but Paul preached grace doctrine to the Gentiles in other countries and to the Jews scattered among them. When the destruction of the city Jerusalem and the temple came in 70 AD, the Kingdom dispensation for Israel was put on hold, until it resumes in the future tribulation. But the grace doctrine for Jew and Gentile alike found in Paul's letters of Romans-Philemon are directly applicable for the church today.

    You are welcome to copy or print any of the written text, maps, and diagrams contained in this web site for personal use or for free distribution in printed format, with the following three restrictions:

    1. The text, maps, and diagrams must not be edited and must remain in their entirety including the copyright information at the bottom.

    2. The text, maps, and diagrams may not be copied to another web site.

    3. The text, maps, and diagrams contained in this web site may not be sold, whether in printed, digital, or other format.

    Thank you.

    Copyright © 1997-2006 Matthew McGee. All rights reserved.

     
  10. God made numerous offers to the Jews throughout the Bible, which I simply refer to as National Israel. I know the history of the Hebrew people as originating in the Tribe of Judah. I know that today we simply use the term "Jew" to apply to any of those since the Abrahamic Promise of a Kingdom on earth in the land of Canaan. In fact, the promise involves 300,000 square miles en toto. It will be restored to National Israel at the end of the Tribulation, following Armageddon.

    I do not debate. I post scriptural truths.

    If I were to witness to Jews in Israel today (or anywhere, for that matter) I would point out the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible that are precisely fulfilled in their Messiah, Jesus. I would point them to the Gospel according to Matthew, and Paul's Letter to the Hebrews. I would not use the Gospel according to Mark, which was written to Romans. I would not use Luke, which was written to Greeks / Hellenistic Jews. I would use those scriptures penned by Peter AFTER the lowering of the great white sheet, AFTER he begin to understand that the promised Kingdom of God was not going to happen in his lifetime (he believed that it would), and that the message was to go forth to the Jew first, and to the Gentiles, about salvation by grace through faith, not about Kings and Kingdoms on earth. Peter came to recognize that, even though he still mentioned that some of Paul's thoughts on the matter were "hard to understand," and got distorted by those who didn't comprehend the New Covenant in Christ, still looking to the Old Covenant that promised a Kingdom on earth with Jesus on the Throne of David. THAT covenant promise was postponed, placed on hold, as the message went out to Jew and Gentile alike that one must be born again, must become a Believer by placing his/her trust in Jesus Christ, not as the King of the Kingdom, but as Savior and Lord. No one "blocked" God from offering the Kingdom or postponing it. God knew what He was doing and had His reasons for doing so. He was following HIS plan which was placed in motion before the foundation of earth as created in His image, the way He wanted it to be, before time began.

    The promised Kingdom of God is yet future (Matthew calls it the Kingdom of Heaven). He, Mark, and Luke are not referring to the Heaven that is “out there, somewhere,” the ultimate destination of all who receive Jesus, the Christ, as Savior and Lord. We are NOT living in the Kingdom of God today. Our Lord's Prayer was for His Apostles and Disciples IN THAT DAY, as they went about proclaiming that "Messiah is come! The Kingdom of God is ‘at hand!’" It was our Lord's prayer for the Apostles and disciples as they went out to announce to the Middle East that the Messiah was, indeed, Jesus of Nazareth, born in a stable in Bethlehem, God's representative on earth.

    When the Kingdom is restored, those who are saved out of the Great Tribulation will be saved by grace through faith, not of works, not based upon observing the Hebrew Bible with its 1,000 rules and 613 commandments, not based upon the traditions penned by the scribes. God has not forgotten His promise to National Israel of a Kingdom on earth with Jesus on the Throne of David. That is still going to happen. I cannot and will not take Kingdom of God promises and overlay them, or plug them into, the blessed Gospel preached by Paul to we Gentiles and to all those Jews who would believe, then and now. I'm simply saying don't apply Matthew 24, for example, to the Christian church. Apply it to the promised Kingdom of God which is certainly on the horizon, "even as we speak." The Rapture of the church, the phony peace, and the 3.5 years of horror, are coming soon. The Second Coming of our Savior with heavenly hosts is imminent. He will destroy the enemies of Israel at Armageddon, then establish the promised Kingdom of God on earth. It will last 1,000 years, after which satan and his hordes meet their doom. THEN there will be a NEW Heaven and a NEW earth.

    Can we learn from the Gospel according to Matthew, the Book of James, 1 Peter, Hebrews et al? Of course! We meet Jesus there! But we do not apply scriptures specifically directed to National Israel, as is made plain by a simple reading of the passages. And Jesus is reverently revealed from Acts 9 through Philemon.

    There are TONS of websites which explain my inspired view of scripture. Research into dispensationalism abounds in websites by Scofield, Feldick, Matthew McGee (especially insightful), and Joel Finck. One website is that of Dr. Noah Hutchings of Oklahoma who has been teaching dispensational truths since 1952. Dr. Matt Couch has a dispensational site. Dr. Charles Ryrie was head of Dallas Theological Seminary which trained ministerial students for years in the literal-historical approach to Bible translation and interpretation. The university was dispensational-based. None of these authors or teachers would attempt to impose on God's working with National Israel a modern (or even post-modern) approach, as so many are wont to do today.

    Understanding dispensationalism does not make one iota of difference today, whether you believe it or not. It is simply a better, smoother way of understanding scripture as it was written and applying it to its intended audience.

    Receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord does not require you to believe dispensationalism. Dispensationalism simply seeks to clarify your understanding of scripture. It is something that you pray about and invite instruction from the Holy Spirit. I am a born-again Believer with or without dispensationalism. However, since 1995 it has opened my eyes to the Truths that God has for us in His Holy Word; my eyes feast upon HIS treasures daily!
     
  11. DOK the reason I thought you might have misunderstood the meaning of " rightly dividing" is because you appear to be dividing the scriptures and declaring one set of scriptures applies only to the Jews and the other set only to " Christians" when the Bible itself makes no such division. Understand it was not Paul but the council at Jerusalem that prayerfully decided what parts of the Jewish custom Gentile believers needed to adhere to and which they did not. Paul's admonition of
    Peter was not for excluding Gentiles for Peter was not doing that. it was for being so worried about the opinion of some Jews that he would mix with and eat with the Gentiles when these Jews were not there but not when they were present.

    Thank you for the invitation to peruse the website you quoted from but the section you quoted is so out of touch with what the Bible actually declares that I can see no point to it. I note you are of the school of thought that Jesus will return to the Earth and reign on it for 1,000 years even thought the Bible does not say that and makes it clear that the 1,000 year period in which ONLY those beheaded for Christ will be raised and THEY will reign with Him for that period actually occurs Sometime BEFORE Christ returns. for only those beheaded for Christ are raised. Everybody else are not raised until sometime after the 1,000 years and we know that when Christ returns ALL the dead in Christ will rise not just those beheaded for Christ and those alive will be transformed. Neither of these things happens BEFORE the 1,000 year period.

    There are a number of other errors in the thing you have said but I mention these things briefly in the hope you might understand that not everything these sites and groups you mention are teaching is the truth.

    But I too have no interest in debating these issues. I am happy to discuss any of them further but we must all decide for ourselves what and who we will and will not believe.

    Regards Misty..
     

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