The Gates of Hell...The Church...Promise

Musicmaster

Musicmaster

I encountered what at first seemed like a dilemma today, at first glance, in my thoughts, but as is the case many times throughout the years of my life, the Spirit spoke into my understanding (don't ask how), and it all began to settle into a harmonious sense of wholesome peace.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Context does not constrain that promise to anything that would limit its scope. It's an empirical, unlimited, stand-alone declaration of a reality that no power nor force in the universe can ever take away from it.

Reflecting upon that verse in my thoughts, I asked again that the Lord bring down the massive strongholds of the enemy in the evils we see all around us in this country and in the world at large.

Later in the day, my thoughts became troubled as I thought back upon the many other times I had prayed that same prayer, and yet the evils seem to be only increasing, and therefore the gates of Hell seemingly prevailing against the prayers of the Church.

The question, therefore, arose in my mind, "Lord, are your promises not real and reliable? Here we are praying for the destruction of all these evil strongholds in the world, and they are getting stronger and more bold in their pride and in their victories.

This troubled my thoughts for a time today, but then answers later began to come to my understanding, even though I wasn't studying at the time, but was simply thinking upon these thoughts and questions.

Isaiah 55:8-13
8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Not very comforting, right? The word of God goes on:

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off.

Do you see that? We sometimes foolishly try to pit God's promises back against Him when things don't go our way. When we forget His absolute Sovereignty over all things and peoples, we fall into that trap, and become depressed over things not going our way, all the time thinking that the Lord just isn't making good on His promises and His absolute declarations.

We easily forget that it's not about us as the Church, but about Him and His will for mankind. It occurred to me that increasing evil can be a tool in His Hands to cause those on the side of evil and liberal leftism, for example, to become negatively affected by that which they supported, and thus drive some over onto the side of the Lord. After all, the evils of the Tribulation will be THE ultimate instrument to drive countless millions over onto the side of the Lord, laying down their lives by denying the taking of the mark, and thus becoming martyrs for the Lord, all the time with Christ standing right there, arms out-stretched with invitation.

So, yes. The gates of Hell never prevail against the Church, regardless of the temperature of the evils all around us.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

See? It's all about Christ, not us and what we want. We accomplish only what He empowers us to succeed.

So, I joyfully pray for the tearing down of those strongholds, but with my eyes fixed always upon the Lord and HIs will, praying always that His will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

Amen

MM
 
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The main key to what I said above is pretty much summed up here:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yes. The growing evil can be, and is used by the Lord to turn some to Him who would otherwise not turn.

Some may ask how that can be...that the Lord would use evil.

Well, given that the Lord takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, it makes perfect sense, noth intellectually and spiritually, to allow evil to flourish up to a point that more may be pulled from the fires (so to speak) over into repentance. THAT is His desire. He used an evil man like the pharaoh, so yes, evil times and seasons can be mechanisms through which He reaches some on that other side of salvation.

Lord, please give us wisdom and discernment to see, with spiritually enlivened eyes, those whom you have prepared to hear the Gospel and be saved through what YOU accomplished on that cross, and grant unto us boldness to speak all Truth in love.

MM
 
Hello Musicmaster;

I enjoyed reading your thread The Gates of Hell...The Church...Promise

I'd like to share my thoughts.

Many disciples have a hard time with these passages in Isaiah (the whole book) and 1 Peter;

They will ask, why does God allow wickedness to happen? Doesn't He promise He will protect us?

The ones who choose not to walk with Jesus on this earth are always in darkness, given in to their freewill, leading in the direction of heinous sin, losing respect for human life and themselves. (See how sin mounts on top of the other?)

What about the ones who choose to walk with Jesus but temptation leads them to their freewill sin, impacting others as well as themselves?

Is one worse than the other? After all, God gives freewill to everyone and what we do with it is up to us.

Isaiah 55:10-13 demonstrates God's Thoughts and Ways are going to prevail with or without my argument to Him about His promises and protection. God is Sovereign.

I cannot limit nor force God to define His Ways my way. When I carry that perspective, it can tempt me to take shortcuts, shortcuts that may lead me to sin to accomplish my agenda because I could not submit to God Ways.

It's when I can lower my hands at my sides with a repentant heart, trust in Him in ALL THINGS on all four corners of the earth, is the beginning of enduring long suffering while God sees my heart and will deliver me (us.)

Your thoughts, brother?

God bless you, MM, and your family.
 
Bob, I always enjoy it when others ask about why God allows sin, suffering and death. The down-side to such discussions is those not wanting to accept the hard answers that fail to offer them the warm fuzzies they seek for an answer. People want to hear about how "good" they are, and how "good" those were who went before them through the fires of trial and suffering. Some even want to hear about how God just isn't there, or is limited in His power to handle all the sin and suffering.

The answers are multi-faceted in how we can approach an answer to the hard questions about suffering and wickedness. The lack of vision in most is what relegates our answers into the arena of ineffectiveness for offering them the comfort they seek. So, I therefore caution readers and listeners to not ask me about such things if he or she is not prepared to broaden the horizons of their vision and understanding...to think outside the box (so to speak). Compartmentalized thinking almost always constrains one's understanding to the point of physical illness when they try to venture out into the wilderness that tests the metal of one's soul and spirit.

When comparing those who refuse to follow Christ from the outset, to those who were walking closely with Him, but then drift off into a sin-filled life...I don't know that there is necessarily an absolute basis for comparison that would allow us to grasp a broad-spectrum, umbrella principle that defines them all into an all-encompassing definition. God deals with each of us individually; looking into the depths of each individual heart. This somewhat goes to the heart of those things that we cannot put our fingers on in such things as what the Lord looks for as to whom He draws to Himself and whom He does not, and why. Many things are shielded from our understanding in this life, which gives ample backing to Isaiah 55:8-9.

There. See? All those seemingly non-answers have within them things of depth that perhaps only the Lord can bring to another's understanding in His own time as He grows each of us whom He has chosen.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

This is sobering, even though it doesn't specifically address your thought about departures based upon the free moral agency we all have. Paul gave some examples, such as forbidding to marry and eating meats that were once forbidden. We see the latter being practiced and taught this very day by various Messianic and proselyte groups who have gone back to the Law of Moses as their guide for living today.

Differences between them and unbelievers? Perhaps not, but we can warn those who have departed into the doctrines of demons. That's a dangerous place to be. The ten virgins is an additionally sobering reality we read about, with five of them being left outside in outer darkness. That's the danger of not being prepared.

Does that help?

MM
 
Yes, thank you, MM.

You pointed out some profound points why God allows sin, suffering and death. Would you agree this equates to our weakness?

Another thought. When we expose our weakness yet try to show that we are strong, God can't use us because we are too prideful in our pitfalls to rely on His strength.

God bless you, brother.
 
Jesus upon this rock i will build my church what rock that he was the Christ gates of hell not prevail all the things he was fixing go through would NOT stop him. they tried at the Cross . 3 days later the stone was rolled away the grave clothes and the face napkin was folded . saying i will be back . all through the Bible they tried to stop the Church ..but it grew under persecution the Church is alive and well Man church is in trouble Not God Church
 
When God can take evil purposes and turn them to use them for good, like in Joseph's story of his brothers' evil being used for Joseph's good and the helping of many people in the time of famine. How many years could have Joseph doubted God or have been angry? It takes great faith to trust that God has it in control and we just need patience.
 
bobinfaith said:
Yes, thank you, MM.

You pointed out some profound points why God allows sin, suffering and death. Would you agree this equates to our weakness?

Another thought. When we expose our weakness yet try to show that we are strong, God can't use us because we are too prideful in our pitfalls to rely on His strength.

God bless you, brother.
Click to expand...

Greetings, my dear brother in Christ.

Oh, yes. The theological/philosophical topic of harm, which we define under the headings of sin and suffering, is a complex one, the answers to which most self-proclaimed atheists and fence riders generally don't like to accept. Amazingly, there are those out there who believe in God, and yet hate Him because of His Sovereignty, meaning that He doesn't live DOWN to their fallen expectations, and thus their hatred of Him.

I will declare this as did Paul of Tarsus...thus saith I, not the Lord...

The fall of man, as you know, was no surprise to the Lord. He knew it was going to happen from before the world ever was, and it fit in with His plans for mankind.

People who have not sought out the Mind of God, seeking and receiving from Him what He parses out to the seeker, their incomprehension of these depths is the greatest inhibitor to their ability to grasp the enormity of it all, and therefore to find comfort in it, but realistically, it's enough for us to grasp with our finite minds in how the Lord reveals His purposes in the advent and rule of sin, suffering and death in this world.

What most don't like to hear is that within this environment of sin and fallenness, it is in this that we are ALL tested for what we are made of internally based upon the choices we make; as opposed to the thinking out there that we are more like programmed robots, having already been pre-determined for us what our eternal destiny will be, which is an utter corruption of God's perfect Justice.

Additionally, what the crowd that has such problems with the existence of sin, suffering and death mostly have failed to consider the alternative to freedom, which is slavery. In other words, I would not want to live in that alternate world. Why?

First and foremost: Because THIS is the world the Lord Himself chose for us.

Secondly, that alternative of slavery is a world where we would not be able to choose between good and evil. Where it may seem rosy and wonderful to the uninformed to not be able to choose evil, and instead their inclinations and choices governed by some outside force, and thus their path forced upon them, that clearly is an undesirable path. Now, granted, some who have suffered greatly from the evils of others, they will lean more strongly in the direction of such control over us all, but they too are blinded by their own emotions rather than to look upon the larger scope of reality.

Thirdly, the Lord chose this path for mankind so that only those who are tested and true enter into His Eternal Kingdom. Had we all lived within a stringently controlled environment, therefore not tested and true, The Lord would have in His Eternal Kingdom a people who seemingly love Him as a result of constraints upon who they might have otherwise been.

Fourthly, the freedom to love. Dare we think upon that with our critical thinking caps on, one will realize that the quality of love given freely is vastly superior to that which is forced by way of constraint and limitation. I enjoy my children's love for me because of their freedom to love me rather than to love me by force. We can then surmise that force cannot ever foster nor originate any true measure of love in its purest form.

I could write on and on about this, delving deeply into the vast array of the ways of the Lord that He reveals to those who seek, but will leave off with this:

We ALL would agree that any man who who would engage in raping a woman, and demand she show genuine love for him in the process, anyone would find that thought repugnant and an additional total violation of that victim.

Why, then, would anyone demand that God accept into His perfect and glorious Kingdom those who loved Him by force?

Therein is a view of both sides of the proverbial coin.

Sorry this post ran so long, but there are those out there who are truly seeking answers, and although this is only one of many that could be discussed, it drives one to the Sovereignty of God, and opens up at least an inkling of understanding for the perspective of Sovereignty and the realities of true wisdom therein.

MM
 
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