The Doctrine of the 24 Elders...Who Are They?

[Musicmaster]

Now we're getting into some far more serious implications and rumblings that may cause some jaws to drop, and others to smile that knowing smile of confidence in the written word of God.

Dare we look closely enough, another item of distinction becomes quite evident:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 24 elders do not have palm branches in their hands, which shows to us that there is a distinction between the saints BEFORE the tribulation, and those who appear before the Lord FROM the Tribulation. Those who came FROM Tribulation do not have crowns. And there's more:

Recall that the 24 elders are in Heaven BEFORE the Great Tribulation, not in the middle, not at the end, and not anywhere else after the start of the Tribulation. The elders have crowns and white robes, but although the vast number who came FROM the Tribulation also have white robes, they have palm branches. I won't go into the deeper meaning of the symbology of those branches since that is not the focus of this thread.

More to come...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It's interesting to note that the first resurrection, contrary to traditional thought and belief, actually spans across thousands of years, with Christ Jesus being the FIRST FRUITS from the dead, then the calling up of the dead in Christ first, and then those of us who remain, and THEN even later yet, the saints who lived and came to faith IN the Tribulation. Do you get that? Traditional thought dictated that the first resurrection somehow HAD to be a one time, momentary event, which is not stipulated anywhere in scripture. It literally spans thousands of years in order to encompass a whole host of different groupings of saints.

The elders have bodies and thrones, where the Tribulation saints do not, but are still spiritual beings in Heaven until AFTER the Tribulation is complete. This seems reasonable from what we read within the text, if not stated expressly. If one is going to limit the First Resurrection to the end of the Tribulation period, then the Bible is in error to have declared Christ Jesus as the First Fruits from the dead more than two thousand years ago.

More to come...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It's at this point that someone may be asking, "Why only 24 elders?"

Let's think about the number 12:

Jacob had twelve sons, who gave rise to the twelve tribes of Israel.

There were twelve apostles...

When we consider both groups together, we can see the representation of all believers in those 24 collectively from the fall of man in the garden to the beginning of the Tribulation.

Now, granted, this is just a possibility among, maybe, several, but let's look at these two groups of twelve and consider the possibility of their being the allegorical representations of ALL believers spanning from the fall of mankind outside the garden, to the beginning of the Tribulation period. (Repeated for emphasis.)

Remember, nowhere in Revelation, during the Tribulation, is the Church mentioned even once as being upon this earth.

So, consider, if you will, the sons of Jacob as representing all the saints before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the twelve apostles as representing all saints after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus...up to the beginning of the tribulation. In order to establish this as a legitimate possibility, we will need to turn to the scriptures, as always:

Let's start by considering the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21, which has twelve gates and twelve foundation stones.

The twelve gates have a name on each one, all representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

The twelve foundation stones with a name written upon them, each naming each of the apostles.

Now, let's also consider this:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Greek word, according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, "judging" is said to mean in this context, "6. Hebraistically equivalent to to rule, govern; to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment: Matthew 19:28"

This one verse answered for me why the twelve apostles are the names written on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem, rather than the gates of entry and exit, each of which will have a name from each of the twelve tribes. I would have thought it would be the other way around, but it is not, and possibly because of the numerous betrayals, idolatries and adulteries perpetrated by the twelve tribes through the centuries, and their broken covenant with the Lord and His Law. The latter is pure speculation. I leave the revelation of the absolute truth for the reason to the Lord.

Now, perhaps, you are seeing the enormity of the implications for this in relation to the timing of the Harpadzo. I leave that to each of you and to your own personal interpretations.

One thing I've learned about differing interpretations is that there is, in most cases, only one right one, with all others being false, but they cannot all be true at the same time.

Does this seem like a lack-luster conclusion?

Well, if so, you probably didn't understand what was being said, and may need to go back through all this an read it more carefully...or you can simply ask, either in this thread or in PM's.

Blessings to you all.

Love you all.

MM

 

[Major]

It's at this point that someone may be asking, "Why only 24 elders?"

Let's think about the number 12:

Jacob had twelve sons, who gave rise to the twelve tribes of Israel.

There were twelve apostles...

When we consider both groups together, we can see the representation of all believers in those 24 collectively from the fall of man in the garden to the beginning of the Tribulation.

Now, granted, this is just a possibility among, maybe, several, but let's look at these two groups of twelve and consider the possibility of their being the allegorical representations of ALL believers spanning from the fall of mankind outside the garden, to the beginning of the Tribulation period. (Repeated for emphasis.)

Remember, nowhere in Revelation, during the Tribulation, is the Church mentioned even once as being upon this earth.

So, consider, if you will, the sons of Jacob as representing all the saints before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the twelve apostles as representing all saints after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus...up to the beginning of the tribulation. In order to establish this as a legitimate possibility, we will need to turn to the scriptures, as always:

Let's start by considering the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21, which has twelve gates and twelve foundation stones.

The twelve gates have a name on each one, all representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

The twelve foundation stones with a name written upon them, each naming each of the apostles.

Now, let's also consider this:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Greek word, according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, "judging" is said to mean in this context, "6. Hebraistically equivalent to to rule, govern; to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment: Matthew 19:28"

This one verse answered for me why the twelve apostles are the names written on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem, rather than the gates of entry and exit, each of which will have a name from each of the twelve tribes. I would have thought it would be the other way around, but it is not, and possibly because of the numerous betrayals, idolatries and adulteries perpetrated by the twelve tribes through the centuries, and their broken covenant with the Lord and His Law. The latter is pure speculation. I leave the revelation of the absolute truth for the reason to the Lord.

Now, perhaps, you are seeing the enormity of the implications for this in relation to the timing of the Harpadzo. I leave that to each of you and to your own personal interpretations.

One thing I've learned about differing interpretations is that there is, in most cases, only one right one, with all others being false, but they cannot all be true at the same time.

Does this seem like a lack-luster conclusion?

Well, if so, you probably didn't understand what was being said, and may need to go back through all this an read it more carefully...or you can simply ask, either in this thread or in PM's.

Blessings to you all.

Love you all.

MM

Think about the #24.
The number 24 is associated with the priesthood.

King David divided those responsible for temple music, as well as those who served as priests and the Levites who aided them, into 24 courses (1Chronicles 23 - 24). When a course of priests was serving, they usually divided their work amongst themselves by lot.

 

[Musicmaster]

Think about the #24.
The number 24 is associated with the priesthood.

King David divided those responsible for temple music, as well as those who served as priests and the Levites who aided them, into 24 courses (1Chronicles 23 - 24). When a course of priests was serving, they usually divided their work amongst themselves by lot.

Hmm. I seem to remember having read through that before, years ago.

So, where's the correlation? Do you see any?

MM

 

[Major]

Hmm. I seem to remember having read through that before, years ago.

So, where's the correlation? Do you see any?

MM

I was only thinking that 12 in the Bible represents perfection/ authority—often used in a context of government.

12 x 12 = 24.

For instance, because Jacob has 12 sons, they form the 12 tribes of Israel. There are also 12 minor prophets that dot the text of the Old Testament.

Jesus choose 12 disciples. There were 12 Apostles. WHY???? He could have chosen 3 or 14 or 19 but He choose 12 = Perfection of authority.

The number 12, more often than not, tends to represent something good. The new Jerusalem, for instance, is stocked full of the number 12 (gates, angels, foundations.

So I was thinking that 12 x 12 = 24 which seems to indicate something GOOD is on the way for us. Then to your thesis of the #24..........
Around God's heavenly throne are 24 elders, each wearing crowns and sitting on thrones, who (possibly) assist him in the governing of the universe !

 

[Major]

It's at this point that someone may be asking, "Why only 24 elders?"

Let's think about the number 12:

Jacob had twelve sons, who gave rise to the twelve tribes of Israel.

There were twelve apostles...

When we consider both groups together, we can see the representation of all believers in those 24 collectively from the fall of man in the garden to the beginning of the Tribulation.

Now, granted, this is just a possibility among, maybe, several, but let's look at these two groups of twelve and consider the possibility of their being the allegorical representations of ALL believers spanning from the fall of mankind outside the garden, to the beginning of the Tribulation period. (Repeated for emphasis.)

Remember, nowhere in Revelation, during the Tribulation, is the Church mentioned even once as being upon this earth.

So, consider, if you will, the sons of Jacob as representing all the saints before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the twelve apostles as representing all saints after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus...up to the beginning of the tribulation. In order to establish this as a legitimate possibility, we will need to turn to the scriptures, as always:

Let's start by considering the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21, which has twelve gates and twelve foundation stones.

The twelve gates have a name on each one, all representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

The twelve foundation stones with a name written upon them, each naming each of the apostles.

Now, let's also consider this:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Greek word, according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, "judging" is said to mean in this context, "6. Hebraistically equivalent to to rule, govern; to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment: Matthew 19:28"

This one verse answered for me why the twelve apostles are the names written on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem, rather than the gates of entry and exit, each of which will have a name from each of the twelve tribes. I would have thought it would be the other way around, but it is not, and possibly because of the numerous betrayals, idolatries and adulteries perpetrated by the twelve tribes through the centuries, and their broken covenant with the Lord and His Law. The latter is pure speculation. I leave the revelation of the absolute truth for the reason to the Lord.

Now, perhaps, you are seeing the enormity of the implications for this in relation to the timing of the Harpadzo. I leave that to each of you and to your own personal interpretations.

One thing I've learned about differing interpretations is that there is, in most cases, only one right one, with all others being false, but they cannot all be true at the same time.

Does this seem like a lack-luster conclusion?

Well, if so, you probably didn't understand what was being said, and may need to go back through all this an read it more carefully...or you can simply ask, either in this thread or in PM's.

Blessings to you all.

Love you all.

MM

Good work brother.........keep it up!

 

[Musicmaster]

I was only thinking that 12 in the Bible represents perfection/ authority—often used in a context of government.

12 x 12 = 24.

For instance, because Jacob has 12 sons, they form the 12 tribes of Israel. There are also 12 minor prophets that dot the text of the Old Testament.

Jesus choose 12 disciples. There were 12 Apostles. WHY???? He could have chosen 3 or 14 or 19 but He choose 12 = Perfection of authority.

The number 12, more often than not, tends to represent something good. The new Jerusalem, for instance, is stocked full of the number 12 (gates, angels, foundations.

So I was thinking that 12 x 12 = 24 which seems to indicate something GOOD is on the way for us. Then to your thesis of the #24..........
Around God's heavenly throne are 24 elders, each wearing crowns and sitting on thrones, who (possibly) assist him in the governing of the universe !

Thanks, Major.

I have to admit to you that I have a deep-seated fault:

I'm much too inquisitive to leave it at that. Where it's true that I engage musings of all sorts throughout each day, when it comes to significant things like the identity of the 24 elders, "I's just gotta know!" as the bank robber said to Dirty Harry...

That's why I dug more deeply into not only the symbology, but also the array of items those elders had that give us clues as to their identity, or representation. The elders had what those who had died in the Tribulation did not have, such as crowns and seats. The scriptures, from a systematic overview, show to us that only believers spanning from the fall to the harpadzo have crowns given to them.

When asked about this, and upon reflection and prayer, what came to me is that those who die in the Tribulation are of a different grouping in Heaven because of their not having been prepared, as we see in the imagery of the ten virgins, AND when we consider the command Jesus gave in Luke 21:36 that FAR too many teachers of scripture completely overlook, and thus failing to help their hearers to become prepared, and have oil in their lamps. Others of those who turn to Christ in the tribulation are also among that other grouping with no crowns, who are those who refused to call upon the name of Christ until they saw the reality of His existence in the midst of the horrors of the Tribulation, and the deaths of billions of people all around the world, AND that biblical prophesy is indeed serious and true.

So, given what ALL of scripture shows to us, the fog clears enough for us to see enough of the panorama to discern the 24 elders are representative of all the OT and NT saints who are in Christ before the beginning of the Tribulation.

The implicative significance of this is HUGE, as you likely discerned. Some may ask, "How do you know that those who are in Christ already, and watching and waiting, will not still be on this earth during the Tribulation?"

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. (see Luke 21:36)
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Some have then observed that within this context is mentioned "salvation," and that the context is therefore constrained ONLY to that element as the defining limitation to the understanding we can apply to this.

Not so. This context also speaks of "times and the season," and "day of the Lord," which scripture repeatedly defines as the Tribulation to come upon this whole earth that has never been before, and shall never be again thereafter. We also read that, "...they shall not escape," and instruction to "...watch and be sober..." No, these are not tied to salvation, but rather prerequisites to deliverance; given that salvation (born again) is not a matter of any of those activities, events and results. Salvation is other than all this. The salvation, then, defined by the context, is deliverance from some things of far greater horror than this world has ever experienced in the past or will experience in the future.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Some have mused that this was speaking only of 70AD, but then they would have to explain the following verse:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Days? The destruction of Jerusalem was an event, not expansive enough to be "those days," and "NO flesh." That speaks of anihiliation of ALL human life, which also doesn't fit within the constraining framework of a localized event.

Sorry. I realize you already know all this. I'm just trying to address in advance, for the sake of others, some of the things thrown into this discussion in the past by others on other boards and in conversations that didn't work in derailing the focus of what's actually said in the text.

Blessings, brother.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Oh, and 12 X 12 = 144.....

(snicker, snort)

Sorry, I couldn't let that one go.....

MM

 

[Major]

Oh, and 12 X 12 = 144.....

(snicker, snort)

Sorry, I couldn't let that one go.....

MM

Now.....lets keep this between you and me. I don't want anyone else to know that I did that. ( + )!!!!

 

[Major]

Thanks, Major.

I have to admit to you that I have a deep-seated fault:

I'm much too inquisitive to leave it at that. Where it's true that I engage musings of all sorts throughout each day, when it comes to significant things like the identity of the 24 elders, "I's just gotta know!" as the bank robber said to Dirty Harry...

That's why I dug more deeply into not only the symbology, but also the array of items those elders had that give us clues as to their identity, or representation. The elders had what those who had died in the Tribulation did not have, such as crowns and seats. The scriptures, from a systematic overview, show to us that only believers spanning from the fall to the harpadzo have crowns given to them.

When asked about this, and upon reflection and prayer, what came to me is that those who die in the Tribulation are of a different grouping in Heaven because of their not having been prepared, as we see in the imagery of the ten virgins, AND when we consider the command Jesus gave in Luke 21:36 that FAR too many teachers of scripture completely overlook, and thus failing to help their hearers to become prepared, and have oil in their lamps. Others of those who turn to Christ in the tribulation are also among that other grouping with no crowns, who are those who refused to call upon the name of Christ until they saw the reality of His existence in the midst of the horrors of the Tribulation, and the deaths of billions of people all around the world, AND that biblical prophesy is indeed serious and true.

So, given what ALL of scripture shows to us, the fog clears enough for us to see enough of the panorama to discern the 24 elders are representative of all the OT and NT saints who are in Christ before the beginning of the Tribulation.

The implicative significance of this is HUGE, as you likely discerned. Some may ask, "How do you know that those who are in Christ already, and watching and waiting, will not still be on this earth during the Tribulation?"

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. (see Luke 21:36)
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Some have then observed that within this context is mentioned "salvation," and that the context is therefore constrained ONLY to that element as the defining limitation to the understanding we can apply to this.

Not so. This context also speaks of "times and the season," and "day of the Lord," which scripture repeatedly defines as the Tribulation to come upon this whole earth that has never been before, and shall never be again thereafter. We also read that, "...they shall not escape," and instruction to "...watch and be sober..." No, these are not tied to salvation, but rather prerequisites to deliverance; given that salvation (born again) is not a matter of any of those activities, events and results. Salvation is other than all this. The salvation, then, defined by the context, is deliverance from some things of far greater horror than this world has ever experienced in the past or will experience in the future.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Some have mused that this was speaking only of 70AD, but then they would have to explain the following verse:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Days? The destruction of Jerusalem was an event, not expansive enough to be "those days," and "NO flesh." That speaks of anihiliation of ALL human life, which also doesn't fit within the constraining framework of a localized event.

Sorry. I realize you already know all this. I'm just trying to address in advance, for the sake of others, some of the things thrown into this discussion in the past by others on other boards and in conversations that didn't work in derailing the focus of what's actually said in the text.

Blessings, brother.

MM

You as well!

You are 100% correct. The saints from the Tribulation Period are a totally different group which is why John did not recognize them In fact, one of the “elders” (7 :13), representing the church in heaven, asked, “Who are these who are arrayed in white robes? And from where did they come?”

The elder answered his own question:........
“These are they who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".

Now...a question not for you but for those reading this thread..............without the church on the earth and without the Holy Spirit convicting, How do these people get saved during the Tribulation. Now I am of the opinion that the Bible gives 3 answers............

1.
2.
3.

Anyone care to do the work and answer the question??????????