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Some Verses To Think About To Help Us Understand Who Holy Spirit, Jesus And God Is

Discussion in 'Holy Spirit Baptism and Living' started by pachumonia, Aug 17, 2012.

  1. John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14: The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    1 John 5:7-8: For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[a] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

    John 8: 58: “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM!”

    Exodus 3:14:God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

    John 10:30: I and the Father are one.”

    Isaiah 9:6: For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    John 14:1: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.

    John 14:9-11: Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

    John 14:15-18: If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him,because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

    John 14:23: Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.



    The original intent and theory of trinity is to prove that there is one true God, which is totally correct, there is only one true God. But some things are not as accurate as they should be. First, the word trinity never appeared in the bible. Second, it is true that, on earth there are 3 different Beings, first there the God, then Jesus, and when Jesus went to heaven, the Holy Spirit came down. It is true that these three are different on earth. But not in heaven.

    In the spiritual realm, it goes beyond time and space, God is not limited by time and space. He can be in heaven and also come down on earth as Jesus, and also come down as the Holy Spirit, because in heaven, there is no time and space. The reason why Jesus still needed to pray to the Father, and have God, Holy Spirit and Jesus all separate when Jesus was being baptized was because He want to show us the example. Though Jesus is fully God in the spiritual realm, but he is also human in the physical realm.

    There is only one God, i.e., Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same one God and one Spirit. There is no such thing as three Gods in one. The trinity doctrine is simply a materialistic spin on the concept of the Godhead. God is Spirit, yet to suit our own tastes people have tried to “materialize” God in the form of idols, saints, or trinitarian doctrines. God called Himself “us” in the Bible (Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Jn 17:22), which may seems like separate identities and persons; however, we can better understand God’s three parts (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as different functions at various stages of world history than as three different persons. For example, we would not say Joe, a father to Sam and the son of Mike, who goes to work as a carpenter is three different people. Joe is Joe, regardless of which functions/roles He is working in.

    The Holy Father revealed the power of creation (Gen 1:1); the Son revealed salvation (Rom 3:24); and, the Holy Spirit reveals God’s will and guides God’s people (Jn 16:13). Yet we cannot say God is three different persons in one body, for they are all one (Jn 10:30). God is one. The Jewish people never believed in more than one God, for that is the essence of monotheism. Christianity, in the tradition of Judaism, never believed in more than one God. Only years after Christ died did the controversy over Christ’s divinity begin and did people come up with the doctrine of trinity or tri-unity. Like a man who is made up of spirit, soul, and body, God cannot be separated into three persons. God is the one and only. When Jesus was born, Isaiah the prophet called Jesus the “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” (Isa 9:6). In Hebrews 1:8, Jesus is referred to as a God. Acts 5:3 tells us He who deceives the Holy Spirit deceives God. Jesus said He came from heaven yet was still in heaven (Jn 3:13 KJV). All this shows that God is one and not three Gods in one. As stated earlier, we have limited knowledge of God’s divine nature. Like seeing a poor reflection in a mirror, we are limited because we are flesh not spirit. One day, we hope to see God face to face and know God fully, just as Christ knows us fully (1 Cor 13:12)

    A. Regarding the true God
    1. There is only one true God
    “The Lord our God, the Lord is one !” (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29)
    There is only one God (I Tim 2:5; I Cor 8:6)
    God said, “I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me” (Deut 32:39;Exod 20:3)
    2. God is a spirit (Jn 4:24)
    The spirit of God is not of the flesh, He is omnipresent and fills all in all (Ps 139:7-8; Jer 23:23-24; Eph 4:6; Lk 24:39)
    The spirit of God is something “no man has seen or can see” (I Tim 6:16; Job 9:11)
    “He is the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; Jn 1:18)
    The Old Testament records of those who have seen God (or God’s messenger) have actually seen the manifestation of God (Gen 16:7-10; 22:11-12; Judg 2:1-2)
    B. Regarding Jesus
    1. Jesus is Jehovah of Old Testament
    a. Jehovah is the Lord of creation (Gen 1:1; Is 42:5)
    Jesus is the creator (Jn 1:1-3; Col 1:16)
    b. Jehovah is the savior (Is 43:11; Hos 13:4)
    Jesus is the savior (Acts 4:12; Lk 2:11)
    c. Jehovah is the king (Ps 10:16; 96:10)
    Jesus is the king (Jn 18:37; Rev 11:15)
    d. Jehovah is the Lord of glory (Ps 24:10)
    Jesus is the Lord of glory (I Cor 2:8)
    e. Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords (Deut 10:17; Dan 2:47)
    Jesus is the Lord of lords and the king of kings (Rev 17:14; 19:16)
    f. Jehovah is the Lord of life (Deut 32:39; Jer 38:16)
    Jesus is the Lord of life (Jn 1:4; 11:25)
    g. Jehovah is the first and the last (Is 44:6; 48:12)
    Jesus is the first and the last (Rev 1:17; 22:13)
    h. Jehovah is the Lord of judgment (Ps 96:10; 98:9)
    Jesus is the Lord of judgment (II Cor 5:10; Rev 22:12)
    2. Jesus is God who became a man
    For the salvation of mankind, God must become man to shed His blood for them (Heb 9:22; 10:4-5; 2:9-10)
    Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born by the virgin Mary (Mt 1:18-25; Is 7:14)
    Jesus is the word that became flesh (Jn 1:1, 14; I Tim 3:16)
    Jesus is above all, He is God of everlasting praise (Rom 9:5)
    Jesus is the all mighty God, the Father, He and the Father are one (Is 9:6;Jn 10:30; 14:7-9)
    “Jesus” is the name of the Father (Jn 17:11, 12, 6, 26; Mt 28:19; Acts 2:38; Zech 14:9)
    C. Regarding the Holy Spirit
    1. The Holy Spirit is God Himself
    God said, “And I will put my spirit with you....” (Ezek 36:27; 37:14)
    Jesus said, “God is Spirit” (Jn 4:24)
    Paul said, “It is the same God who works all in all” (I Cor 12:6)
    Deceiving the Holy Spirit is deceiving God (Acts 5:3-4)
    Abidance of Holy Spirit is the abidance of God (I Jn 3:24)
    2. Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus
    Holy Spirit is Christ’s spirit (Acts 8:29, 39)
    Opposition by Holy Spirit is Christ’s opposition (Acts 16:6-7)
    Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, and Spirit of Christ are the same Spirit (Rom 8:9)
     
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  2. HEY, guess what, we mostly agree. Especially on the "outside of time" part.

    I'd amend it a bit, for my tastes to this...

    God and the Word existed before Creation. Don't know who was first, there is no first, there was no time yet, so linear words like first are oxymoronic.

    All of creation was done BY GOD, through the WORD which could reasonably be read as meaning several different things. It's not important to know HOW it happened right? Just that it happened through Him.

    The Word lived and was present in the world from Genesis, but it made itself Manifest as Jesus from Mary's womb, and Jesus became the Christ, who died, was buried, resurrected and ascended, at which point the Spirit came in a different capacity from how It had operated previously.

    Christ is the head of the Church. The Spirit is the heart of the Church. God is the commander of the Head. The Apostles were the nec, the martyrs the back, and we are a bunch of different little phalanges that the rest operates through. I won't speculate which part of the body I am, I'll leave that to you. Don't get banned... :;
     
  3. A
     
  4. Yes, pachumonia I concur !
    Jesus even confirmed the strict monotheism of the Jews in Mark:Mark 12:28-29
    King James Version (KJV)
    28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
    29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
     
  5. So is the holy spirit an angel or what?
     
  6. The oneness position is full of holes. Jesus is not some part of a god machine, not 1/3 of a god, not the father manifesting some make believe personality. Jesus is fully God, fully the son and stands on his own.

    Jesus did not pray or get baptized to be an example to us, He did not do things in vain.

    There is zero scripture that the Holy Spirit is Jesus...... God has always taken ownership of the Holy Spirit saying My Spirit or of my spirit. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of anointing or Holy Spirit.

    If we stay consistent in translation then you must believe that we are also God. Otherwise you can't stay consistent.
    Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    So I guess we are also God. Good to know.

    Correct translation:
    Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

    Jesus the author of the age to come as God spoke to us in these last days through his son.
    Jesus the author "Father" of eternity by which He ushered in Eternal Life.

    El has always referred to anything mighty.

    Using bad translations to make a point. Jesus was the only Person Begotten of the Father:
    John 1:14: The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    KJV
    Joh 1:14
    And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

    You believe God is confused:
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    So God must have given back everything to himself in a fit of confusion at some point. Not a real son whom we call King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

    Jesus is the True God, but not his Father.

    Jesus confused and forgot He was the Father and had a Duh moment:
    Joh_17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Jesus is not part of some god goo system. Jesus has and always been here with the Father before the foundation of the World.

    It's only the devil that would love to erase the son. Even devils where not confused on who the Son of God was, as a Devil rebuked Jesus as the son of God by His father. It's only people that get confused.

    Mar_5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

    How can people be more confused than devils? A mystery for sure.

    Blessings.
     
  7. God created heaven and the earth.

    if you look at it in a different perspective, He created time and space.
    Earth, compare to earth is bounded by time and space. hence humans are too.
    But God can transcend this time and space. Because He is God, He is Spirit.

    So with this fact, it is perfectly reasonable to see Jesus and Holy Spirit as God Himself, because He is able to be in multiple places. Just like how He is beside you in your city, and He is beside me in my city.
     
  8. How about from a Word perspective.

    1) No scripture mentioning God transcends time. Time is a byproduct of creation.

    2) No Scripture mentioning the Holy Spirit is a god, but theos (Greek word for immortal deity) would fit. We were called theos and Satan was also called theos but that does not make us the Father God. God has always taken ownership of his Holy Spirit. Jesus never took ownership of the Holy Spirit but that His father send him.

    3) No scripture mentioning Jesus is his own Father, but many mention He is not His own Father. If we take Jesus being one in the Father then staying consistent in translation means we are also God the Father. Jesus only spoke and did what He heard and saw his father speak to him as he mentioned this a couple times. To see Jesus was to see the Father because the Son only did what the Father said. (That's scripture)

    4) God gave everything to his son by which we are joint heirs. God the Father did not give everything to himself.

    5) Jesus was here before the foundation of the World with the Father. For he said glorify me with the same glory you once gave me before the World was.

    5) Even devils knew Jesus was the son of God and not His father.

    We don't take a couple scriptures and ignore 50 others. Ever.................... Oneness or modelist Doctrines are full of contradictions. Nothing can contradict.

    If Jesus is His father........... We have no mediator. God said it takes two to mediate, I don't think He got confused on that later.

    Blessings.
     
  9. Jesus is God we must first use the correct Bible that is the King James version,

    First as others have said,

    John 1:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Second

    John 14:6-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    Pay careful attention to verse 7.

    Third

    1 Timothy 3:16
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    God was manifested in the flesh, Jesus is God.

    fourth

    Revelation 1:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Jesus is called the Almighty.

    fifth

    Revelation 19:13
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Backs up John chapter 1

    I can keep going on.

    One thing I will leave with you last is from Genesis.

    Genesis 6:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    It grieved him at his heart. The word heart.
     
  10. Thank you for that Study. If you want to discuss Oneness V.S Trinity that is fine but please avoid phrases like.... pay attention carefully or I might come to the conclusion you are a superior teacher and have examined this for years and discuss it with you on that level.

    If your just giving input and using the same old modelist scriptures out of just not knowing then I understand that and explain things on that level.

    Jesus is God manifest in the Flesh........................ That did not say the Father came and Manifest in the flesh.

    Jesus name means the word as he was sent by the Father to speak to us in these last Days...... that does not make him just the Word part of God or else He is not really any god.

    I can give lots of counter scriptures against oneness or Modelist belief's. These nonsense belief's came in 1914 by the Apostolic Church. I am not against tongues, but their God is like an egg theory is a child's imagination at best.

    Modelist were created by hearing the unlearned who claim trinity but attempt to prove it in the Word and can't. Trinity never proved anything in the Word, it's a creed that says there are 3 but the 3 are as 1.

    The reason they did not try to prove it in the Word is because they saw all the scriptural issues doing so and making ONe God with a split personality disorder was a scriptural mess.

    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Oneness and Modelist loose all ability to add or subtract when you get them talking about the bible. Two thrones, mean Two Gods. Both describe as looking different Jesus in rev and the Father in Eze.

    If Jesus came from the Father then he is not the I Am and Lied in John 17 asking for the same glory he had with the Father before the Earth was even created.

    Both have always been.

    Jesus came into the "World" from the Father. It's the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father being the Fathers Spirit.

    anyway............. I am not trinitarian or Modelist or oneness. However If I had to pick it would be Trinitarian.

    Blessings.
     
  11. #11 Michael B, Jan 22, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
    I have studied this for a long time the best way to put it is to make an argument from the trinity, someone would have to warp the scriptures, Jesus says if you have seen me you have seen the father, also God said he manifested himself in the flesh, no plainer is it than that, the spirit of God could not all be contained in the flesh, it over flowed, flesh is impossible to contain the spirit of God, Jesus as in the beginning and the end and in the middle, to say Jesus is not God would be an antichrist statement, denying the divinity of Christ. One God, not two or three, but One God.

    James 2:19
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    John 1:1-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    God says he is The Word.

    Exodus 3:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

    Mark 14:62
    King James Version (KJV)

    62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    God said his name is I Am, and so did Jesus.
     
  12. We can make one God with split personalities all day but that counters other scriptures like the One I posted about Jesus Throne and God's throne.

    I see the argument about fear of removing Jesus divinity here but if we Mash him into a god machine is that not also removing his divinity?

    If you seem me, you seen the Father............. the Father is greater than I.

    Jesus said I only do what I see my father do, I only say what i hear my father speak............... If you seen me, you seen the Father as I only Spoke what He told me and did What I only saw.

    We can bring up the same old arguments all day that have been brought up for years. I would rather skip the same old dribble and same old counter scriptures and talk on that level.

    to believe something, there can be ZERO counter scriptures. something Oneness and Modelist ignore. I hope your not that way. We also have to examine how the translators translated a bit. I don't like that but sometimes you have to do that.

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

    Devils also believe this.

    Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

    the devil wants to go to God to rebuke the Son of God. That makes two

    Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    So we don't take one verse as proof "thou believest that there be ONE GOD" and ignore other scriptures. Its the Antichrist that denies the Son and the Father.

    There were two words in Greek translated ONE.

    Heis and Mia.

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one (heis) God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble
    Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several (Heis) gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

    Mia is always translated ONE. Not a big issue since John said Jesus is the true God, and the Father called Jesus God.

    For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    (1Co 8:5-6)

    this makes two........... The Apostles were not confused about who was who.

    Paul said there are gods many............but to US there are just two.

    that means god is a class, not a person.

    2Co 4:4
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Here the one that blinds the minds to the light of the gospel (Satan) is called god also with a little g. Theos.

    Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Jesus tells us He was with the Father before the World was even created. That makes two.

    Once we remove all the counter scriptures we find what is true.

    blessings.
     
  13. A
    All the scripture you pointed out are one God scriptures I do not see you point,

    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Christ the image of God. One God.

    I could go on all day, but some people will never relieve, that Jesus spoke in parables so that way only the elect could know what he was telling them, wheat and the tarres, must repent and be baptized in Jesus name, with the receiving of the Holy Ghost before you can even understand to the fullest extent what Jesus is telling the chosen, it's was already mentioned about speaking in tongues. God says he changes not and what happened on the day of Pentecost, cloven tongues of fire, when they received the Holy Spirit, also Mark in chapter 16 verse 15-20 talks about the change in a person after they are baptized.
     
  14. This is a personal apologetic only….

    If we think physical, carnal, flesh, and worldly way: the concept of trinity is impossible to happen….

    Why?

    Imagine a good King…

    Say, the King sees a need to save his people from not knowing how to be a good citizen….

    In my own human logic: the best possible way, in fact, I think, the only way: is for him to a good citizen himself…

    BUT… this will be an IMPOSSIBLE task!

    Because, if he went out of the castle, out of the throne, and become a good citizen,

    There is no king to serve then!

    How he can show it then to his fellow citizen… there is no King when he went out!

    Yes, pretty IMPOSSIBLE for a physical, carnal flesh mind to grasp.
     
  15. Would this be to conclude that your of the Apostolic faith?

    You also ignored my scriptures about the two thrones and Jesus getting glory from the father before the earth was even created.

    Why Mention the gift of tongues, what does that have to do with anything here?

    All the scriptures I gave do not point to Just one God........... Two thrones means two Gods. I am sure counting is not a challenge for you if your not talking about the bible. People normally loose common sense when in church and are just fine out of church.

    You count two apples and tell me there are two. In Church I tell you to count two thrones and you will tell me there is just one for One God. I understand what happens, I am just asking you to open your eyes and follow along.

    Blessings.
     

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