Discussion in 'Evangelism' started by Intojoy, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. Did you know that salvation is absolutely free? and that we do not have to do anything to get saved? Well what do the Scriptures teach? Lets see.

    Well, John 3:16 is the most famous verse ever quoted in the world but I want you to see and hear what Jesus said just two verses earlier in verse 14 Jesus is pointing to a historical event to make a point about God's love.

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; (John 3:14 ASV)

    The event happened when God led the Jews out from Egypt. As was their habit the people grumbled and sinned while out in the wilderness on their way to the promised land. God responds by judging and disciplining them and on this occasion God sent serpents into their midst:

    And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (Numbers 21:6 ASV)

    The people of Israel then do their normal thing - they ask Moses to pray for them for forgiveness from The Lord. Moses prays and God forgives them:

    And the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah, and against thee; pray unto Jehovah, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (Numbers 21:7 ASV)

    God forgives the people but on one condition: Moses is to hold the serpent up for the congregation to gaze upon.

    Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." (Numbers 21:8 NASB)

    It was not how guilty they felt or how long they stared at it in the heat of the desert sun, it was simply the look of faith.

    And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:9 NASB)

    If they were hard hearted and stiff necked they died in their sins.

    Let's continue on now with Jesus's words:

    so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15, 16 NASB)

    God has lifted up our object of faith, Jesus the Messiah on a cross. We are to humble ourselves, coming to the realization that personal righteousness and holiness is outside of our capabilities, and look to our God and Father who said:

    so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (John 3:15, 17 NASB)

    If we refuse to believe that salvation is by grace alone thru faith alone in Messiah alone plus nothing then we are not really believing on Him that was sent and are under the following judgement:

    so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:15, 18 NASB)

    If you have followed the teachings of any other variation from what the bible clearly states concerning the content of faith for salvation then you have accepted the accusation of other religions teaching concerning not only these simple words of Christ but all of the other passages of scripture concerning God's free offer of imputed righteousness.
  2. In every other religion you can name you must do some form of "works" (pray 3 times a day etc.) to earn acceptance but with Christianity you can not work your way to Heaven. You must simply believe in your heart the word of God is true and confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth and you shall be saved. (Romans 10:9,10)

    Salvation revolves completely around the Jesus. If you try to add anything to what Jesus has done, you completely void everything He has done. (I picture a math equation and what happens when you multiply any number by zero, regardless of the size of the number; infinity times zero is zero) you may think God needs help but if you try and add anything to the Cross you may get an outcome, but it won't be Salvation.

    "It is finished" (John 19:30) there is nothing more to do.
    Mr. Darby likes this.
  3. #3 ixoye_8, Nov 23, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
    that dogma is created by ignoring scripture ..

    please explain why in Matthew chapter 7 & 25 Jesus is rejecting believers for not doing deeds of the Law of Christ (not mistaken for the deeds of the Law of Moses) ???
  4. How do you explain these verses which refute your narrow, non-grateful interpretation of salvation ???

    Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, ,He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

    Jhn 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

    Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

    Act 5:32 “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

    Jhn 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

    Jhn 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    Jhn 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.

    Tts 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

    Tts 2:7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,

    Tts 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

    Jhn 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

    Jhn 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

    1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

    1Jo 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

    1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

    Mat 16:27 “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.


    2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”
    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

    Rev 2:5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place unless you repent.

    Rev 2:26 ‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

    Rev 3:2 ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

    Rev 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
    Rev 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
  5. or these verses ???

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

    1Th 5:8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

    Tts 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

    Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Hbr 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

    Hbr 7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    1Pe 1:21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    1Pe 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

    1Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

    Eph 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

    Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

    Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel

    Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

    Col 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    1Th 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

    1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,

    1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    1Ti 5:5 Now she who is a widow indeed and who has been left alone, has fixed her hope on God and continues in entreaties and prayers night and day.

    Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

    Hbr 6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

    Hbr 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
    2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
  6. a bride/bridegroom relation (which Jesus likens it to) is one of love and devotion ..
    not just Him showing love but a covenant of LIVING A MUTUAL LOVE ..

    Jesus left nothing undone ..
    however, YOU think YOU can leave your part of the Covenant of Mutual Love between God and mankind undone ..

    our part is belief ..
    good, but you are still not better then a demon who believes ..
    Jam 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

    our part is seeking to be holy and repent when we are not ..
    1Pe 1:16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”
    2Cr 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
    Luk 13:5 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

    our part is obedience to God ..
    Act 5:32 “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
    Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
    Jhn 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

    you look to Him .. that is good ..
    like Abraham etc, righteousness imputed by God to us, is based on if we believe, repent and obey Him ..
    no belief, repentance and obedience .. no righteousness imputed ..
    you think you can be rebellious to obedience to God and get to heaven ??? .. NO .. you just THINK He does it all .. WE have our part in the covenant/contract/agreement too to DO ..

    read both my lists above of GODS WORD ..
    and tell me deeds are not part of the paradigm of the covenant of Faith/Love ..

    if you want a one sided love .. then you chose the wrong God ..
  7. our actions/deeds do not make a difference ???

    Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”

    Jam 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

    1Pe 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

  8. a bridegroom would be stupid to pick one for a bride who never gives back ..

    here is one like that .. one who's love is NOT COMPLETE ..

    Mat 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
    Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    so Jesus CLEARLY states obedience is mandatory (as is foirgiving others and repentance) .. but wait .. there is more ..

    Mat 19:20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”

    Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    did He say BELIEF IS ALL YOU NEED, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT ADD TO MY PART OF THE COVENANT ??? .. NO .. He said we must have DEEDS of compassion

    Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

    He picked the rich guys money, because He knew that the guys compassion did not extend that far .. he did NOT want to love his neighbor as himself ..

    Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”

    and here is the other verses in the bible which Jesus answers it in ..

    Luk 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
    Luk 10:26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
    Luk 10:28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

    so the DEEDS by which we are judged on (which the first list refers) are LOVE OF GOD BY OBEDIENCE, AND LOVE OF NEIGHBOR BY COMPASSION ..

    Luk 10:37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

    Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

    1Cr 9:21 to those who are without law (gentiles), as without law (law of Moses), though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law (gentiles).

    Mat 24:13 “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    Mar 13:13 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
  9. here are some who had belief and their love was COMPLETE ..

    Mat 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.Mat Mat 25:35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
    Mat 25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
    Mat 25:37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
    Mat 25:38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
    Mat 25:39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
    Mat 25:40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

    here are some more who only had belief and their love was NOT COMPLETE ..

    Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
    Mat 25:44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
    Mat 25:45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
    Mat 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Mat 7:19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit (deeds of compassion) is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits. (deeds of compassion)
    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord (believes),’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
    Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (not having the Law of Christ which is compassion)

    Mat 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
    Mat 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
  10. Good discussion thanks

    I really liked the commentary: "He picked the rich guys money, because He knew that the guys compassion did not extend that far .. he did NOT want to love his neighbor as himself .."

    Now I'm wondering about myself....
  11. nothing to wonder about ..
    we are all a work in progress ..
    from what I read in your posts, your hearts desire is to please God ..
    we are perfecting the compassion of our hearts as we mature in Christ ..

    God has use for good stewards of money, but if you get greedy, then you are going in the opposite direction of compassion .. and the cool thing, if you are a good steward, He will give you more .. just always serve Him .. which is easy if you tell yourself it is God's money you are working with not yours .. if you are rich or poor makes no difference if God is in control .. just don't try taking the reins back ..
  12. Thanks
  13. Show us were the bible says that salvation means one will enter the kingdom of God.

    (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

    (1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

    (1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
  14. Just to add, Prov 30:8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread.
  15. Ixoye, thanks for the effort in your posts. Good work!

    Just to add on ''believing''. People take that as simply believing like we do in...say Santa Chlaus. Then enter a state of positivity, trying to mentally avoid negativity and doubt :ROFLMAO:...then thinking that is good enough.

    But believing necessary for salvation (which is in Jesus being Lord) is ONLY possible with the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3 and we know the Holy Spirit searches our hearts and minds Rom 8:27. This can be paralleled to drawing near to God James 4:8. Drawing near to God involves doing those things that please Him.

    Hence believing = carrying our cross.
  16. Thanks for the enlightenment, I have read through times without number but couldn't easily fathom the key point of the message. But thanks for your response, I got it all (believing = carrying our cross)
  17. Yes not living God’s Word will put you to sleep. When you wake up it will not be in the kingdom of God.

    Remember being saved does not mean one will go to heaven.

    (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

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