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Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by MMurphy, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. Catholic theology has held seven sacraments:


    Most Protestants recognize two, Baptism and communion.

    My theology has taken me to understand the sacraments as sacred rites ratified by the grace if God, though I'm not sure what other definitions actually say about them. I consider baptism and communion to be cardinal from which the other five proceed but are nevertheless equal to.
  2. This could be considered to be some of the "man-made" stuff some evangelicals don't adhere to because it's likely not in the Bible. Lysander would probably have something to offer on this.
  3. The only sacrament I've had trouble confirming is unction (anointing the sick). However, Confirmation I simply see as "believer's baptism", reconciliation as a "re-baptism", matrimony is a type of communion in and of itself, and ordination is necessary to get someone to be able to administer communion.
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  4. The sacraments are means of grace supplied by the RCC. Some Protestant churches have carried some of those means of grace over to still serve as means of grace.

    The problem is that for us to do those means of grace to obtain grace, then it is not grace at all, even if presented as gifts from God. If you have to do them to obtain grace, then it is not grace.

    Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Jesus Christ is the only gift from God to obtain grace & life & sanctification by.

    1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
  5. The only way your line of reasoning works is if we accept the doctrine of universal reconciliation, which is the only such doctrine that can truly abolish the need for any works. Following your line of logic we could not even confess our belief in Christ to obtain grace because that too is some form of work.

    So if you do not wish to advocate universal reconciliation, you must provide a reason why mere confession is sufficient to obtain grace and why it is not conferred through the sacraments.

    And BTW most Anglican Protestants (Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.) accept at least two sacraments, and even the Baptists recognize them to some extent.
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  6. Believing in Jesus Christ is how one is born again. Acts 10:34-48 testify to those that heard the word, believed, and had received the promise of the Holy Ghost before they had come forward, before they were water baptized in Jesus's name,and before they had confessed Him with their mouths so basically you are hitting the nail on teh head on how we are saved but not inferring universal reconciliation when there is necessity to believe in Him in order to be saved.

    Is it a work that a believer can boast about? No. Because God the Father is the One that had drawn them unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) and the Father revealed His Son to them so that they can believe; Matthew 11:25-27 And the reason why the Father draws some and not all sinners, is because He knows some sinners prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to have their evil deeds reproved by Him ( John 3:19-21 ) but basically the pivotal means of grace which is by believing in Jesus Christ ( John 3:18 ) is even the work of God Himself and thus the free gift of eternal life really does rest on the Son as all invitations points to the Son for life ( John 6:39-40 & John 14:6 )

    John 3:18 again. Putting anything inbetween Jesus and us to obtain grace is to make that a thief. John 10:7-9

    And that is why no good fruit can come from a corrupt tree. All churches of believers need to prune away works that deny Him as able and stand apart from the works of darkness in false words and errant beliefs that has its origin from the RCC.

    There are ordinances ( not sacraments ) given like communion and water baptism, but Jesus is able to save any sinner without them simply by believing in Him for it is by Him that believers are baptized with the promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost testifying that they are saved and kept by Him for He is indeed the Saviour.

    1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
  7. This entire post reads like nothing so much as a rant against Catholicism. But I don't think it's fair to misrepresent Catholic beliefs. Catholics do NOT believe you are "saved" by good works, but a combination of faith and works.
  8. Very interesting topic.

    The best way I could describe the sacraments are as gifts. They are divine blessings from God and guides in how to direct our lives to Him.

    I'll be answering this as a Catholic and in regards to Catholic belief:

    Baptism: This is always the first sacraments all Christians receive. It's not full membership into the body of Christ, but it is the first step. It is the sacrament of being born anew, free from original sin.

    Communion: This is also referred to as the Blessed Sacrament because it is literally Christ, in body, blood, soul, and divinity -- so all of the other sacraments tie into it, this one is THE sacrament. While the physical nature of the Eucharist remains the same (bread and wine), the substance has changed, which is why it is called transubstantiation rather than transformation. It's not a mere re-enactment of the Last Supper, but we're re-countering and remembering Christ on the Cross. It's a re-experiencing of Christ's sacrifice, but not to be confused with crucifying Christ over and over each time this happens, especially since He did this once and for all 2000 years ago. It is the climax of the Mass.

    Matrimony: For Catholics, marriage isn't just something nice that happens when a man and woman fall in love. It's not just a human institution, but a holy one. It's a vocation because it's a call to live our lives a certain way. It's a fruitful and permanent covenant the two make that includes God in the marriage. This is why the Church refers to the home as the "domestic church."

    Reconciliation: This is also known as Confession. The Church recognizes two types of sins; venial and mortal. Venial are those small sins we commit, and many times don't realize. We pray and ask God for forgiveness for these without going to confession. However, the bigger sins, mortal sins, are the ones that are necessary for this sacrament. Catholics believe while God could easily just have one pray to Him and ask for forgiveness (which is still good to do, even for mortal ones), Jesus instituted this sacrament as including those who have been consecrated to absolve these sins -- not on their behalves, but as vehicles of Jesus. So when a priest says, "I absolve you of your sins," this isn't the priest forgiving, but is God. And it's Reconciliation because it is a reconciling with God.

    Ordination: Like matrimony, this is the vocation one may have to serve God through the Church as a priest or a religious. Those who become priests, monks, friars, nuns, sisters, etc are called "Religious" and those who don't but serve through the Church as laity are called "Secular." (The word Secular in this case doesn't mean how most people use this word).

    Confirmation: This is one of the three Sacraments of Initiation within the Church (the other two being Baptism [first] and Holy Communion [third] -- this one is second). The faithful are born anew through baptism, strengthened through confirmation, and in full communion with the Body through the Eucharist. This is illustrated in the Bible when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples.

    Unction: This is also known as Anointing of the Sick. It's not one just for those who are about to die. Its origins come from James 5:14. Both this sacrament and Reconciliation are called Sacraments of Healing. It used to be called "Last Rites" but this term has changed because it caused a lot of confusion (many people think it's for the dead, but it's not). It's a prayer for physical and spiritual healing together. This, Reconciliation, and the Eucharist are the only sacraments that can be received more than one time.

    I hope this gives some clarification on these.
  9. Indeed. Catholics believe it isn't works of our own that saves us--we cannot be saved by our works, but our works partnered and fueled by our faith in Christ. Acting as a living testimony of Jesus to others.

    Though this forum has had about 100 debates on that too.
  10. I believe I was addressing the sacraments that has been noted as a few were carried over into the Protestant churches.

    I find the Catholic stand on the sacraments in opposition to their claim that Jesus Christ is their Saviour. If they are saved by Jesus Christ and yet the sacraments were based on man's needs for salvation, then saved believers do not need the sacraments.

    Right? This is why you find me seemingly misrepresenting what the Catholic believe, but only because I do not believe Catholics are actually listening to what they are saying as opposing themselves when they do that.

    You are saved, brother, and to make the ordinances as sacraments as a necessity to obtain salvation, then that is the same thing as denying Jesus Christ of having ever saved you in the first place.

    I find the place for sacraments as a means of grace to be works of iniquity for saved believers to depart from doing them by His grace & by His help if they wish their faith in Jesus Christ as their Saviour that He has saved them to shine.
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  11. Paul clarified that works have their place but not for salvation; works are only profitable unto men.

    Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    So using any good work as a means to be saved by doing them along with faith in Jesus Christ is the same as denying Jesus as being able to save us without them.

    Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    We need to look at our faith in how we are going to be presented by Jesus Christ in Heaven for something that was done.

    Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
  12. Hahaha, I'm happy to discuss, but I think this has happened about 100 times, and this would be 101 times. You're welcome to start a conversation with me, but 1) let's keep this thread on topic and 2) let's not create confusion.

    Start a conversation with me and I will certainly respond with explanation because this is one of the confusions people have in regards to Catholicism.
  13. I was trying to address another definition for which scripture would adhere them as; works of iniquity that are denying Him.

    But mayhap, I should concede that he was not referring to a definition from a scriptural source, but only a denomenational source.

    I am not sure what to entitle the thread for the topic of our conversation. Do you have one?
  14. I think Scripture is an excellent place to begin when discussing these things. In regards to the sacraments, each of them point directly to Scripture because they are all instituted by God which is why they are all regarded as holy.

    But yes, if you're interested in starting a thread about Catholicism, you can call it whatever, but often times, they get shut down somewhat quickly because it sparks hostile argument sometimes. When I say begin a conversation, I mean a private one. It's literally called "start a conversation." It's a feature on this forum.
  15. Lysander, I was hoping you could apologize on behalf of Catholicism for me on the subject of ordination.

    Now, my theology is holding that ordination comes by the Grace of God and it is by that grace that the Eucharist is consecrated. However, Catholic canons hold that even if the ordinary has sinned in a way that would be punished by him being deposed, his sacraments are still valid, at least until he is discovered. And I suppose that this would be for the sake of the laity, God would still validate the sacrament.

    If this is the case, however, couldn't it be possible for ministers in the Protestant faith to have valid sacraments for the sake of the faithful there?
  16. Don't you think scripture would directly call them holy if they were truly holy?

    Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. Thanks for the clarity & the reminder of that feature.
  17. Why is faithful profession any less of a work than faithful baptism?

    Catholics recognize the baptism of desire, but they would purport it is still important to follow up on that with a baptism of water.
  18. An ordinance is not being done to obtain salvation; but doing them in the spirit of what sacraments are for is denying His ability to save those that believe in Him.

    There is nothing wrong with "desire" to be water baptized, but it is wrong if one seeks to be saved by it as if believing in Jesus Christ as their Saviour is not enough. The "ordinances" cannot be identified as sacraments which are the means of grace to obtain salvation by if one is testifying that they have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
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  19. Baptism is the sign of the new covenant. Without it you have to explain why God told Abraham to circumcise all his descendants forever.

    And the Eucharist has superseded passover which was also commanded to be celebrated forever.
  20. I believe scripture was referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ gives as a promise for all those that come to & believe in Him; water baptism is not the sign of the new covenant.

    Eucharist is not found in the NT. Neither is the term "sacraments". And since they are referring to something not specified as such for doing them, they should be shunned.

    The Catholic catechism says that Catholics are not saved yet and that the sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    So if you have to do them yet to be saved, how can you say you are saved?

    This is why I have a hard time with them because the definitions from the scripture would describe them as works that deny Him and thus are an iniquity in and of itself.

    In any event, works cannot accompany salvation les they say Jesus Christ was unable to as our Saviour. He had saved us by simply having believed in Him. That is the only way our faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour can shine when we are doing ordinances not as sacraments, because we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ

    Trust is the basis for all relationships; and so when will believers trust Him as their Saviour that they are saved unless they stop doing sacraments as if they are necessary for their salvation?

    Please find the scripture that states we are to "celebrate" at communion. I find it as meaning to be a sober solemn occasion to do in remembrance of Him that we have been bought with a price and sealed as His in proclaiming the Lord's death and thus thankful that we are saved when we had first come to & believed in Jesus Christ.
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