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Rapture 1

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Charles Kamau, Jun 9, 2008.

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  1. Rapture 1

    A Question: Hello, I pose a question to whoever would be in a position to disclose more on it. The Mighty Rapture of the Church which comes before the Hard Times is a safe way for the Lord's Beloved Church out of agony, pain and corruption.

    * Will Rapture come with The Arch-angel Trumpet Sound, in which occasion the Dead are resurrected first? If then Rapture does not come with The Arch-angel's Trumpet Sound, does it mean the Dead will remain untill the Tribulations are over, and Christ descends to meet the Church in the air with the Glorious Arch-angel Trumpet Sound?

    The lovers of Truth of the End Time you need to make a contribution. -Thanks
     
  2. There is no question on the if. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is very clear on what happens.

    Essentially in 1st century Jewish custom, when a man and woman are to be married, the bridegroom will go back to his father's house, and prepare for the wedding. Jesus essentially explains it in John 14:1-4.

    So in answer to your question, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thess 4:16-18 (emphesis mine).
     
  3. Rapter 1



    Hello,
    You have answered in a way to suggest that Jesus Our Lord comes down after the Tribulations of the wicked world, TOGETHER WITH the Saints in it. You indicate that during the plagues and all pain over the whole world, saints will still be in the world. 2Thes. 2: " ...the end will not come until the lawless man is revealed." If Christ must come physically to take the Church, with the Sounding Arch-Angel Trumpet, The Bible says He comes, and His coming destroys the antichrist(as the Bible says),who has already done all he is meant to do.Tis right here that I am convinced that Rapture takes place b4 the tribulations, without the Trumpet. A situation of "...two would be tilling the ground, one is taken the other is left behind..." =And the believers are secured, to later return with Him at the Trumpet Sound, that resurrects the dead and lifts the Remnants to meet Christ in the air. It is in this coming that antichrist is extinguished by the Glory of the Lamb. Jesus is Lord -Amen.
     
  4. The Israelites were witness to God's judgment on Egypt and yet were untouched. I believe that He comes at the last trump also. I respect the opinions of others on this and believe me I have heard dozens.Lots of them made plenty of sense and yet they cannot all be right but guess what- I love them each and everyone, as I get a little older in these things I simply get less dogmatic about them. When ever He is ready for me I will be waiting.:)
     
  5. i think the idea is Jesus comes and takes his followers first,then satan is threw down,then unbelievers start to believe very quickly when they understand animal nature,:eek::eek::eek:
     
  6. Raptre 1

    Hello Boanerges,Smellycat,
    To stay free from all misconceptions in the World, concerning the meat & bones in the End time significant study, which Boanerges is talking about, I conducted my own comprehensive study lasting five years with all the help I needed from God, mysteriously swerving to position in the right time to benefit.
    It still remains that nobody knows the time of His return, but the Bride's Return is certain. With the blossoming of the fig tree we can tell He is on the verge of return. Would you mind plunging into the Study? I have never enjoyed anything else this much: Even to know that the Two Witnesses and the Antichrist are alive todate and it is this reason why our Internationally recognized teachers the likes of Chuck Smith, Jeffrey Grant would confidently assure you that the last Generation is this. This that has seen the blossoming of the fig tree.
     
  7. If Jesus comes "like a thief in the night" like Paul suggests, then the saints will be taken prior to the Tribulation. I can't find my Bible right now, as my wife moved it (I have kids who like to rip paper), so I'll try to make this as specific as possible. And maybe I'll come back later to back up my beliefs.

    Like I said earlier, the Jewish custom of the day during the time of the Apostles was that a bridegroom would go away and essentially prepare a place for the bride and groom to consumate the marriage. It was done at the parents of the groom's house. And addition would be built if the family was wealthy enough. Why is this significant? Jesus spoke to the Disciples that he was leaving to prepare a place for us, and that he would return. This parallel makes sense if the Church is taken from the world to the marriage supper of the Lamb, and come back at the end of the Tribulation to set up his Milenial Kingdom. In a post-Tribulational view, how does the Church come with the Christ when he returns if they are still in the world? It makes little sense to me.

    I also see no reason why Paul would say for us to wait for the blessed hope and not speak of the sheer horror that has to come before. And let's face it. The Tribulation will be no picnic. We are talking about the most unbridled horror that the world has ever seen. Stephen King can't even duplicate or even think up what is to come during this time. And I simply cannot believe that the church will be in the thick of it.
     
  8. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    I see every indication that this is referring to the very last day this old earth will stand but it makes no mention of rapture here.
     
  9. If this earth is going to be burned up, will every animal and person left behind also burn up and die with it like a holocaust?
     
  10. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. Again, it makes little sense why God would leave his church in the world during the Tribulation to endure all that will happen. It also makes little sense how the church at the same time is still on earth when Christ returns, and is with Christ when he returns.
     
  11. God is not a destroyer but He is a God of restoration. Those who reject Christ have a fiery future ahead of them this we know. Those that are His will have paradise restored to them and will live and dwell with God Himself here on earth.

     
  12. What makes sense to the natural mind and the Word of God are often two different things. This life is simply a test for us to see who we want to be with, God or the god of this world. God sees it as bestowing great honor on those who are martyred for His Name. I believe we place to much value on this temporal flesh. And again the Israelites saw many similar plagues in Egypt but were untouched by the plagues themselves. Serving God and carrying His Name is an honor, being used of Him in the end times is an honor. In fact knowing you brother is an honor, so I do not mind discussing this but I will stop if I feel I am upsetting you. I believe that you are more valuable than my opinion on this matter (as Christ shed His very blood for you) and I know that ultimately His will is going to be done no matter which of us is correct.
    Your friend and brother, Larry.

     
  13. Rapture 1

    Hello,
    I support you El, your story has alot of back up in the Bible. I however want to indicate that when it comes to the End Time, Church is treated differently from the House of Israel. The Church will be raptured but the Israelites would be secured in the wilderness. It is they Jews that the two men on Mt.Olive in white told "You will see Him come the way you've seen Him off." They needed not forget that Statement. Have they or not?

    Boanerges,
    I support you alot, because at that time, rapture has taken place. When your nation is to wage war against another, wouldn't a man remember to call back its nationalists and ambassador back home, first? How much God? Wouldn't you doubt God's protection so much to suppose that He will fail to stop the wrath and fail to save His beloved, by sending His wrath to the wicked amidst the preachers of Hope in Eternity by God?
    =Charles
     
  14. Must I be carried to the skies ,
    On flowery beds of ease,
    While others fought to win the prize ,
    And sailed through bloody seas?

    God bless
     
  15. There are many different beliefs of when the rapture is going to happen. The rapture which is not mentioned in the Bible is referring to when the saints get caught up and meet Christ in the air. Some believe that it will occur before a 7 year tribulation, some say afterward, some say directly in the middle, some say between the middle and the end, and then there are those that don’t even believe there is a rapture coming.
    The pre-tribulation rapture theory or as some call it, the “Secret Rapture”, was popularized (notice, this is when it was popularize, there has supposedly been evidence that this theory actually originated in the 1,700s but wasn’t popularized as of yet) in 1830 when Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old girl had visions that included a secret rapture, where believers would be taken out of the earth before the rise of the antichrist. She was a member of Edward Irving’s congregation. Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby both attended prophecy meetings soon after. Darby learned of Margaret McDonald’s vision and began to promote a secret rapture.
    Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, who was influenced by writings of Darby came out with the Scofield Reference Bible, which supported a secret rapture. About 1 million copies were printed by 1930. The pre-tribulation or secret rapture theory was widely accepted in 1900’s making it one of the most taught beliefs among prophecy teachers.
    If you watch some modern end times movies, read their books, and listen to their teachings, you will most likely come across prophecy teachers teaching the secret rapture. The popular Left Behind series, which include fiction books and movies, promote the idea of a secret rapture before the appearance of the antichrist. Teacher such as Jack Van Impe, John Hagee, Tim Lavay and many more, teach this theory. Let’s see what the Bible says:
    Argument 1: The rapture and the second coming are two totally separate events.
    Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after the tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect form the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of Heaven.”
    Here is a clear Scripture showing that the second coming and the rapture both happen after the tribulation. First you see the words, “after the tribulation”, so you know that it is talking about the period that follows the tribulation. Then you see “the Son of Man coming in the clouds”, which is describing the second coming. “He will send His angels, and gather together His elect” which is the rapture of the saints.
    Argument 2: But the Scriptures in Mark 13:24-27, Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and Revelation 20:5 show His coming with the complete gathering, whereas 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 shows a partial gathering (harpazo) before the tribulation.
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
    Harpazo means a taking up, not a partial taking up. If anything, this Scripture is more evidence that Christians must go through the tribulation. Where it says, “we who are alive and remain”, the word “remain” means survive according to the Strong’s Concordance. Why would the word survive be used if the ones caught up didn’t have to go through a life threatening trial?
    Argument 3: The blessed hope is the pre-tribulation rapture.
    Titus 2:13 “Looking for the blessed hope, and glorious appearing of our great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.”
    The blessed hope is the second coming of Christ. Too many Christians alive today aren’t concerned about the second coming. Imagine if the tables were turned and Christians faced terrible persecution from the antichrist and all his followers. Christians would grasp onto the hope of the second coming in order to make it through. Also notice in this Scripture that Jesus appears. It’s not some rapture where everyone disappears and there is no visible appearance of Jesus Christ like all the movies show.
    Argument 4: The pre-tribulation rapture is only for the bride, the rest of the church has to go through the tribulation.
    The church is the body and a body can’t be split.
    1 Corinthians 12:13 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body”
    Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
    The wedding supper must take place with the entire bride. How can you have a wedding supper with only part of the bride. That wouldn’t make any sense. The Bible never speaks of the “bride hood” saints and “tribulation” saints as two distinct bodies.
    Argument 5: Why would Jesus allow His Bride to suffer.
    Philippians 1:29 “For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”
    Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation for 10 days. Be faithful until death and I will give you a crown of life.”
    Take into consideration that all but one of the apostles were martyred for their faith. They went through much suffering to proclaim the gospel.
    Paul’s sufferings– 2 Corinthians 11:23b-27 “I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.”
    As you can see, Paul went through many sufferings. Some would say that Paul did not have the right kind of faith. Paul had much faith. He was thrown into prison with feet fastened and instead of getting down and discouraged he and Silas sang hymns to God. God then released them from prison and instead of running like most people would, they stopped the jailor from committing suicide and won him over to Christ. This incident can be found in Acts 16:22-34. How many people do you know that would sing hymns to the Lord when fastened in prison? Most people whine if their computer breaks down or if their car goes up. Jesus also suffered terribly and we are not above our master. The Bible never promises us that we won’t suffer persecution.
    Argument 6: The church isn’t mentioned after Revelation 3.
    Just because the word “church” isn’t used after Revelation 3 doesn’t mean that the church isn’t mentioned.
    Revelation 6:9-11 “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”
    Revelation 7:14b “These are the ones who come out of great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
    Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
    Revelation 13:10 “He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity, he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints”
    Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

    In all of these passages we see the people of God. Who else keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ besides the church? What is the difference between the saints and the church? Remember, the church isn’t a building. The church includes all those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:6b). That is the truth that the church is built upon. How can you be in Jesus and not be part of the church?

    Argument 7: These Scriptures speak of only the ‘Tribulation’ saints.
    Remember what was said earlier about how the bride of Christ cannot be divided. There is no distinction made between the “bride hood” saints and the “tribulation” saints in the Bible. This is a manmade philosophy and needs to be rejected.

    Argument 8: The tribulation saints are saved in accordance to the Old Testament, not by grace as in the New Testament.
    Scripture doesn’t say this. In fact, it says that the saints remain faithful to Jesus.

    Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

    The saints are also beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus. How can you have a testimony for Jesus if you are not saved by grace as in the New Testament?

    Revelation 20:4b “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the Word of God, who had not worshiped the beast and his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.”

    The grace of Jesus is of no effect if you are justified by the law

    Galatians 5:4 “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

    You cannot be in Christ if you are attempting to be justified by the law. Those that are dying for the testimony of Christ are not practicing the Mosaic Law differently than the Apostles did.

    Argument 9: Only the first 3 chapters of revelation is written to the churches
    Not true.

    Revelation 22:16a “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
    Why would Revelation even be in the Bible if it weren’t for Christians to read and understand?

    Argument 10: The tribulation is for Israel, not for the church.
    There is no division of Israel and the
    church.
    Galatians 3:29 “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek….for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    There is no separation of Israel and the church. Salvation is offered to both Jews and Gentiles.

    Argument 11: “Counted worthy of escape” means to escape the tribulation.
    Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    This Scripture doesn’t require a pre-tribulation rapture. You can be brought to Heaven by death. In Luke 21:36 the phase “ye may be counted worthy” is Katischuo, which means to prevail, overcome. We could escape the tribulation by dying for the Lord when the saints are being persecuted. In fact it says that it is a blessing to die during the tribulation period.
    Revelation 14:13b "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

    We are accounted worthy by overcoming the antichrist in the face of death. We escape eternal hell by not receiving the mark.

    Revelation 12:11 “And they overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.”

    Argument 12: The Holy Spirit must be removed from the earth before the tribulation.
    2 Thes. 2:6-8 “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming.”

    It can’t be the Holy Spirit holding back the antichrist from being revealed. The church will still be here. In the Scriptures a few verses back it says that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to him will not occur until after the great falling away and the man of sin revealed.

    2 Thes 2:1-3 “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.”

    As we mentioned earlier, Scripture shows that the saints will be here during the time of the antichrist (Revelation 14:12, 12:17, 13:10). You cannot be a saint without having the Spirit.

    Romans 8:9b “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.”

    Who or what is the restrainer? In verse 6 of 2 Thes 2 it says that we know what is restraining and that he may be revealed in his own time. It is the time clock of God that is restraining. God is holding the antichrist back until the appropriate time for him to be revealed.

    Argument 13: But the Holy Spirit restrains the evil in this world.
    1 John 4:4 “You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”

    John 14:17 “The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.”

    The Holy Spirit doesn’t work in the world but in us. Where in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit restrains the evil in the world? If the Holy Spirit is supposed to restrain the evil in the world, then how come 2 Tim 3:13 says that “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse.”?

    Argument 14: But if the Holy Spirit is here during the time of the antichrist, then we will have power over the antichrist and will be able to rebuke him.
    Surely the Holy Spirit is more powerful than the antichrist but that doesn’t give us permission to override God’s will and turn around the prophecies of Scripture. Why didn’t the apostles rebuke those who persecuted them so they didn’t have to suffer? They had to still submit to the will of God. The Bible says that in the end time the power of the saints will be shattered and the beast will over come them.

    Daniel 12:7b “That is shall be a time, times, and half a time; “and when the power of the Holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.”

    Revelation 13:7a “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.”

    The Scriptures show that the antichrist is destroyed at the second coming.

    2 Thes 2:8 “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming.”

    Argument 15: The rapture takes us to Heaven
    Nowhere in Scripture does it say that we will be taken to Heaven at the rapture. We will meet him in the clouds and return with Him for the millennial reign.

    Argument 16: What about Isaiah 26:20-21 which says “Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.”?

    Notice Isaiah tells his readers to hide? Why would it be considered hiding if we went to Heaven? This is referring to the time in the tribulation where the saints are supposed to go into hiding.

    Mark 13:14-20 "So when you see the "abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter. For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

    Why would Jesus warn His followers to flee during the abomination for desolation when none of His followers are here? Why did God find it necessary to warn believers if they won't be going through it at all?

    Argument 17: What about Zephaniah 2:5 which says, “Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.”

    This speaks of the wrath of God, not the wrath of Satan. The wrath of Satan is the persecution of the saints. Since Christians aren’t appointed to wrath, God will protect them from wrath when He pours it out. There is no rapture required to be protected from God’s wrath. When God poured his wrath out on Egypt by killing the first-born male, the Israelites were protected, not taken from the earth.

    Argument 18: The rapture is a secret event and no one will see him.
    There is no mention of a secret rapture or coming in the Bible, there is however Scriptures that imply that the second coming will be visible to all and introduced with much noise.

    Revelation 1:7 “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.”

    When talking to the Christians in Acts 1:11b “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

    Why would the angel tell Christians that Jesus would return the same way that He left if He was going to get them secretly?

    Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

    1 Thes 4:16 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.”

    It seems obvious here that the rapture is no secret. The Bible emphasizes much noise. I don’t see how this could be a secret.

    Argument 19: All that noise is Spiritual, the believers will hear it but the non-believers won’t.

    This is another man-made doctrine that was made to try to defend a pretribulation doctrine. There is no Scripture backing this up.

    Argument 20: What about where the Bible says it will be like the days of Noah and Lot, one will be taken one will be left behind.
    This Scripture is referring to the coming judgment and the Second Coming. In the days of Noah and Lot it was the wicked that were taken from the earth, not the righteous. God protected Noah and Lot while keeping them on the earth. He warned them and brought them to safety. No rapture was required. Even if this was referring to the rapture there is no mention of it being before the tribulation.

    Argument 21: "What about Revelation 3:10 where it says that the church of Philadelphia will be kept from the hour of trial?"
    Similar to the Scripture that says that we must be accounted worthy to escape this Scripture could be referring to an early death. It also could refer to God giving them His protection during that time.

    Isaiah 57:1-2 "The righteous perishes, and no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, while no one considers that the righteous is taken away from evil." He shall enter into peace; they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness."

    Argument 22: "Isaiah 57:1-2 isn't referring to the tribulation."
    Why can't it being referring to death before or during the tribulation. It says that death takes us away from evil.

    Argument 23: "What about the 144,000 that are going to witness. Why would God keep us here if he has 144,000 witnesses.
    The Bible doesn't show the 144,000 as witnesses. Where is the Scriptures that show them witnessing.

    God is going to keep the Christians here to witness. Why would God remove his best witnesses when it is His will for no man to perish? It is almost kind of selfish to want to leave during the tribulation while our loved ones have to go through it. Wouldn't it be better to stay here for the tribulation to get one soul saved than to be taken out? Isn't winning one more soul to the Lord worth dying for? Believers need to stop their selfish way of thinking and be concerned for others.

    Argument 24: "The rapture comes before the tribulation so that we can have the wedding supper for 7 years when the tribulation is going on.”
    Where in the Bible does it teach a 7-year marriage supper in heaven during the tribulation? The wedding supper happens at the second coming. That's when the entire bride is going to be together. Every Christian that has died or lived through the tribulation will come together.

    Argument 25: “The come up hither” in Revelation 4:1 is the rapture.
    No coming of Christ or resurrection is found in Revelation 4:1. The words “come up hither” were spoken to John since he had to be taken up in order to be shown everything.

    Argument 26: “Jesus is coming as a thief so the rapture must be secret.
    At the end of the tribulation between the 6th and 7th vials Jesus is still saying that he is coming as a thief as though he hasn’t came yet. Also, back in the days of Jesus and the apostles a thief wasn’t quiet like he is now days. People were robbed in day light. It is the timing of the thief that is unsuspected.

    Argument 27: “No man knows the day or the hour and the pre-tribulation rapture theory is the only theory that keeps this on context.”
    Not necessarily. We won’t know the exact day or hour. It could be toward the end of the 7 years or a little after. The Bible doesn’t say that after exactly 7 years the rapture will occur. We will know when it is close but not the exact day.

    Revelation 16:15a “Behold, I am coming as a thief.”

    The First Resurrection includes those who resisted the mark

    Revelation 20:4-6a “And I saw the thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who was part in the first resurrection.”

    The Rapture happens at the very last trumpet

    1 Corinthians 15:52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

    There are 7 trumpets blown in the book of Revelation. The rapture cannot happen before them since it is the last trumpet. Matthew shows that the last trumpet for the rapture is after the tribulation.

    Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet; and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    The church and the two witnesses are on earth at the same time.

    Revelation 1:20b “and the seven lampstands you saw are the seven churches.”

    Remember, seven lampstands = seven churches

    Zechariah 4:2b-3 “I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left.”

    The two olive trees are on earth at the same time as the seven lamps which are the seven churches.

    Revelation 11:3-4a “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees…”

    The two olive trees are the two witnesses. It just takes simple logic to figure out that the two witnesses and the seven churches are here at the same time.

    The Rapture and the second coming happen on the same day

    2 Thes 2: 1b, 3, 8 “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering to Him…that Day will not come unless…the man of sin is revealed…whom the Lord will…destroy by the brightness of His coming.”

    The Falling Away

    2 Thes 2:3b “for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is reveal, the son of perdition.”

    Both the falling away and the man of sin have to be revealed before we are gathered to Him. How can a falling away occur during the tribulation if the rapture happens and there are no Christians around to fall away at the time of the antichrist? The falling away is an apostasy where people turn away from the Lord. Will there be many that fall away because they trusted in a pre-tribulation rapture and didn’t prepare their faith to go through persecutions? Some maybe so set on a pre-tribulation rapture that when it doesn’t happen, they will lose their trust in the Lord and the Scriptures.

    Hosea 4:6, 14b “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge….Therefore, people who do not understand will be trampled.”

    Mark 13:23 “But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.”

    Argument 28: It is God that sustains the believer, not the strength of his faith.
    We need faith to be in Christ. Without faith it is impossible to believe in God. Many will have faith, but will have faith in false doctrine, which can lead to destruction.

    2 Timothy 4:3-5 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, “endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

    Many false doctrines have been created by people’s own desires. Their flesh doesn’t want to believe something in Scripture so they take it and twist it. Doctrines such as “God will not allow you to suffer,” “once saved always saved,” “name it claim it,” “Pre-tribulation rapture theory” all are manmade doctrines made by the selfishness of the flesh. If faith is springed by hope, then false faith is springed from false hope.

    Revelation 2:10 is referring to the church and it shows the church going through tribulation. "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."


    The days must be shortened for the elect’s sake

    Mark 13:19-20 “For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shorted the day.

    If the elect are raptured then why are the days shortened. Why would God take His elect away when there are going to be lost souls down here who need to hear about Jesus? Since it is God’s will that all be saved, wouldn’t he want his elect on the earth during the hardest time to witness to the lost. It is selfish to even want to leave while there are still souls that need to be saved. We should want to stay here just for that.

    We must endure to the end to be saved

    Matthew 24:13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

    If we aren’t going to go through the tribulation, then what do we have to endure through?

    A Warning to those that teach the pre-tribulation Rapture.

    You are giving people a false hope of what is to come. Many aren’t preparing their faith and don’t even study Bible prophecy because they don’t believe they will be here. Many will lose their faith thinking the Bible isn’t true because preachers have told them they wouldn’t be here for it.




    All Praise The Ancient OF Days
     
  16. Hello Adstar,
    You have presented alot of 'Arguments' which other faiths deem true within and without, besides the conventional believe of Rapture. The Word of God in the Bible is Spirit and will always defend itself with more than beams of comforting relaxation truths. I am convinced of Rapture more than my choice of words and sample of revelations can reveal.
    Now, I request you to flex your knowledge and give chance to the fact that God raptured Enoc, and saved Noah (by the Noah's Ark means), before He had brought down the wrath. You have the Truth and need give it prayer it will liberate you from any pre tribulations pains contained in your writing. The thought of God's Wrath upon us Lovers of God is a 'hope killer'. Isn't it?
    Alot of reference you have produced range alot in periods of occurence, in my knowledge, with alot having passed and of course, reference with all respects. Let us not have Jesus coming confined to a period determined and known. Not even the Rapture. Before tribulations, is any time, esp in the next three seconds. You accept that?
    Adstar, it is a priviledge having to hear from you. Hook up yourself with what proceedes from the Spirit, not any as much the variety of faiths. If your conclusion in the writing is your final destination, keep it. Alot has come up including Rapture, and will, since alot was sealed for the endtime. I still today seek to know what the Seven Trumpets sounded (Rev.). I may be revealed to, or even fail to share in this knowledge, while they after me do. =Charles.
     
  17. Hello,
    The reason behind bringing up this topic is to know the truth, and to hear the knowledge proceeding from the uncomfortable side.
    It also energizes people to research on the truth.
    I have held a few lovely years studies and exhorted prayers in the course of it. I am now set to engaging in more intensive studies by virtue of the last post provocation courtesy of Adstar.
    I request you MODERATOR to close the thread, not to delete as earlier said. Thanks indeed. I am Expectant of God's Shocking Mysteries.-Even how the End will End, besides the written. Blessings to you and all funs of Bible Prophesy.
     
  18. This thread has been closed at the request of the OP.
     
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